SEPTA Silverliner V issues

So they are putting a band aid on the problem. That figures.

I read Septa's press release and it doesn't appear that they are only band-aiding the problem.  It looks like the cars are still under warranty.  To me that means that they will be repaired properly, with new parts.

Leasing additional equipment to run more trains to carry the commuters sounds like band aids to me. Nothing said about the problem -poor castings, poor design or both.  What is the solution ?? new castings ??  How many years will that take ??  Maybe fab them like EMD has started doing. Not too many foundries left that can do big castings so maybe fabbing them is the way to go.

Going to slow is not not good.  But going too fast is not good because you might cause a new problem one may not see because of the speed.

Now what trucks are they using on the Denver RTD cars?

From what I have read the Denver trucks are a "slightly different design' and it would be interesting to know the difference. Heavier ?? The SEPTA trucks were cast at the Columbus Steel Castings who are now in bankruptcy.  There aren't that many foundries left that can cast something like a rail truck. 

From what I know (which isn't a lot) The Denver RTD cars have trucks of a different design, ( the Denver version of the cars are lighter in weight) and are fully aware of SEPTA's woes and are keeping a close eye on the trucks. So far no problems like cracked truck frames.

jim pastorius posted:

From what I have read the Denver trucks are a "slightly different design' and it would be interesting to know the difference. Heavier ?? The SEPTA trucks were cast at the Columbus Steel Castings who are now in bankruptcy.  There aren't that many foundries left that can cast something like a rail truck. 

Much of the heavy casting business is sourced offshore which causes problems in meeting the domestic parts content requirements for publicly funded projects.

Wonder how soon we will see FRP railroad truck castings? 

So if the original truck casting supplier is in bankruptcy the SEPTA would have to look for a source for the truck castings, then climb on the bandwagon of creditors who are probably already going after Columbus Steel castings.  

Plus where are the patterns for the castings ??   This will end up costing the Pa. taxpayers more $$, it always does.  If the design is faulty new castings might not help. So leasing replacement equipment is a temporary fix, at best to keep the  passengers happy.

Leasing additional equipment to run more trains to carry the commuters sounds like band aids to me. Nothing said about the problem -poor castings, poor design or both.  What is the solution ?? new castings ??  How many years will that take ?? 

The cars had to be taken out of service. What would you do, have them shut down services until the cars were repaired?
Regardless, the focus of the meeting was also broken by a request for increased services, as was the press release by  Madeliene Dean. It's unclear to me whether the leased cars are to replace the defective cars or for additional service. Maybe the leased cars are for both.


I missed the part about the cars being under warrantee.  If the cars are under some sort of warrantee, I wonder whether the manufacturer is liable for the cost of the leased cars that replace those taken out of service. 

Lots of luck !!  The lawyers can make money arguing all these details.

jim pastorius posted:

So they are putting a band aid on the problem. That figures.

jim pastorius posted:

Leasing additional equipment to run more trains to carry the commuters sounds like band aids to me. Nothing said about the problem -poor castings, poor design or both.  What is the solution ?? new castings ??  How many years will that take ??  Maybe fab them like EMD has started doing. Not too many foundries left that can do big castings so maybe fabbing them is the way to go.

jim pastorius posted:

From what I have read the Denver trucks are a "slightly different design' and it would be interesting to know the difference. Heavier ?? The SEPTA trucks were cast at the Columbus Steel Castings who are now in bankruptcy.  There aren't that many foundries left that can cast something like a rail truck. 

jim pastorius posted:

Plus where are the patterns for the castings ??   This will end up costing the Pa. taxpayers more $$, it always does.  If the design is faulty new castings might not help. So leasing replacement equipment is a temporary fix, at best to keep the  passengers happy.

jim pastorius posted:

Lots of luck !!  The lawyers can make money arguing all these details.

You certainly are full of criticisms. We get the picture that you hate SEPTA.

The fact of the matter is that SEPTA has a difficult situation with defective equipment and there are no quick easy fixes for it.

I will be interested to hear factual updates on this subject.

One of the issues that interests me is, why can't rail transit systems in the USA develop more standardized equipment with proven designs that stand the test of time? To what extent are the defective SEPTA cars different from those used on other heavy-rail transit systems in the USA?

One of the issues that interests me is, why can't rail transit systems in the USA develop more standardized equipment with proven designs that stand the test of time?

IMHO, a contributing reason is that each of them is either directly or indirectly run by local governments / politicians who treat everything as a tool for their own political gain. Look at the recent NYC subway car announcement.
Certainly there are other issues, such as clearances and what sort of weather the cars will see.

Ace posted:

You certainly are full of criticisms. We get the picture that you hate SEPTA.

The fact of the matter is that SEPTA has a difficult situation with defective equipment and there are no quick easy fixes for it.

I will be interested to hear factual updates on this subject.

One of the issues that interests me is, why can't rail transit systems in the USA develop more standardized equipment with proven designs that stand the test of time? To what extent are the defective SEPTA cars different from those used on other heavy-rail transit systems in the USA?

I'm not sure that he "hates" SEPTA.

He's a Pennsylvania resident and a fair amount of ALL residents tax dollars go to fund the perennially broke SEPTA.   His tax dollars paid for those cars so he's earned the right to levy criticism.

There are only a handful of heavy electrifications in the USA using MU equipment like SEPTA .  NJ Transit and Metro-North/LIRR are the only ones that come to mind, if you exclude the METRA/IC line in Chicago or the South Shore.  

Given this limited market how much would this research cost and how effective (or objective) would it be?

Would we be better off teaming with European countries to develop a global standard?   And how would this solve the issue at hand, where the design appears to have been changed to a lesser cost casting which could not handle the stress and fatigued.

The PCC car did work as a standard.  Maybe too late to save streetcar, but was a great concept.  Amtrak, California and the mid west states seem to come up with a common passenger car.  So, it could be done.

Do I sound like I "hate" SEPTA??   Gee ! ! maybe I do. I seem to have read recently that the state subsidizes them to about 200 million $$ a year. I could be wrong-might be more. Do yu think there is graft and corruption ?  Bloated payrolls ??   You bet your sweet bippy there is.  Each transit agency is run as its own little or big fiefdom for the pols.

You're probably correct, Jim.  Too much individualism among these types of agencies and politicians and not enough, What's good for all, thinking.  Look how many years the cross county commuter line has been studied, talked about, had beau-coup public meetings about and it still isn't anywhere near on a serious path toward getting built.  

None of this is new.  Politicians have been at it since the beginning.  Plus there are so many forces working against public transportation, it's a wonder any still exists.  

Do I sound like I "hate" SEPTA??   Gee ! ! maybe I do. I seem to have read recently that the state subsidizes them to about 200 million $$ a year.

How much does the state spend on roads and bridges? How about airports?
Mass transit is a service, not a money maker.

Enough, you will argue the topic to death. Irrelevant to the question.

Enough, you will argue the topic to death. Irrelevant to the question.

What question was that?

PS

Are they fixing the trains ??? --- Any time soon

Thx

C W Burfle posted:

Do I sound like I "hate" SEPTA??   Gee ! ! maybe I do. I seem to have read recently that the state subsidizes them to about 200 million $$ a year.

How much does the state spend on roads and bridges? How about airports?
Mass transit is a service, not a money maker.

CW, I'm not sure I get what you're saying.  Aren't bridges and airports considered a service like other mass transit ?   

I forget where, I saw a engine truck frame casting and it said it was made in South Africa, maybe SEPTA should give them a call, I was amazed to see that on a US made Loco.

This looks like good info about the problems with the trucks. It's just the equalizer beams that have a problem, not the entire truck frame. The trucks appear to be fabricated construction, not castings as implied in some previous reports.

http://articles.philly.com/201...a-cars-jeff-knueppel\

And more news specifics:

http://www.phillymag.com/news/...liner-v-inspections/

The cracks may have originated from incompatible welding that attaches bearing seats to the equalizer bars, where they contact the journal box.

And here I have been grumbling about piston powered aircraft stuck in the 1930s. Maybe those engineers were pretty smart after all.

Did they have this much trouble with those 1910 P54 cars I used to ride from Rosemont to 30th Street Station every day?

I am blown away with " improvements" we have made in software.  The guys at "Outlook" are busy hiding the ball; I can no longer find simple stuff like "cut and paste" in Windows 10; this forum and my iPad are now wildly incompatible after the upgrade, and I look at that truck frame and wonder why on earth would they move all that suspension stuff closer to the kingpin?  Wouldn't outside bearings and springs undergo about half the stress?

I wish them the best - we need public transit.

bob2 posted:

... I look at that truck frame and wonder why on earth would they move all that suspension stuff closer to the kingpin?  Wouldn't outside bearings and springs undergo about half the stress?

I wish them the best - we need public transit. 

Inside bearings allow outboard disc brakes, easy to service. Big improvement over tread brakes.

bob2 posted:

And here I have been grumbling about piston powered aircraft stuck in the 1930s. Maybe those engineers were pretty smart after all.

Did they have this much trouble with those 1910 P54 cars I used to ride from Rosemont to 30th Street Station every day?

I am blown away with " improvements" we have made in software.  The guys at "Outlook" are busy hiding the ball; I can no longer find simple stuff like "cut and paste" in Windows 10; this forum and my iPad are now wildly incompatible after the upgrade, and I look at that truck frame and wonder why on earth would they move all that suspension stuff closer to the kingpin?  Wouldn't outside bearings and springs undergo about half the stress?

I wish them the best - we need public transit.

 

I just don't know how much research and development goes on in this country when it comes to nuts and bolts stuff.  On the other hand, way too much time and money goes into drugs and their annoying commercials.  The same goes for banking.  And let's not leave out the insurance business.  I could be viewing 15% more programing if it wasn't for those advertisers.  Of course, I'm not sure if I want to watch 15% more of the boob tube.

CW, I'm not sure I get what you're saying.  Aren't bridges and airports considered a service like other mass transit ?  

Yes, they are all public services that cost our governments money.

Time machine way back to 2006 when the shenanigans started.

The SEPTA board has long been criticized for being politically packed with Lawyers and Accountants (which it is) with little expertise in anything transit related.

Posted on Fri, Mar. 17, 2006

SEPTA expected to approve 104 new regional rail cars
A Korean-Japanese consortium appears to have wrapped up the $244
million contract.
By Larry King
Inquirer Staff Writer

SEPTA's board is expected to approve a $244 million contract next
week for a Korean-Japanese consortium to build at least 104 regional
rail cars over the next four years.

A staff recommendation that SEPTA accept the bid by United Transit
Systems was made public yesterday.

The contract would be the largest investment SEPTA has ever made in
regional rail vehicles, and would increase its fleet by 31 cars. The
rest of the new Silverliner V cars would replace 73 aging rail cars
that date to the 1960s.

"The ridership on the regional rails is so heavy, we owe it to the
public to move this along," SEPTA general manager Faye Moore said in
an interview. The net gain of 31 cars "should help us eliminate some
of the standers" during peak times, and will leave room for ridership
to grow, she said.

More than 106,000 passengers take SEPTA's regional trains on
weekdays. According to the transit agency, that number has been
increasing by about 3 percent annually.

SEPTA's board is scheduled to vote Thursday on the contract.

The UTS proposal was more than $52 million lower than an offer from
Kawasaki Rail Car Inc., the only other bidder.

The Silverliner V project had been delayed for two years after
Kawasaki sued SEPTA for selecting UTS from a group of four
manufacturers in 2004. Kawasaki contended in the lawsuit that UTS was
inexperienced and technically inferior, and that SEPTA had improperly
switched its standards during the bidding to favor UTS.

Kawasaki dropped the lawsuit after SEPTA agreed to redo the process.
There was no indication yesterday whether Kawasaki might mount
another challenge. Its marketing director, Jitendra Tomar, did not
return a call seeking comment.

In a recent interview, however, Tomar had said he expected the UTS
bid to be lower than Kawasaki's.

"We of course have to make a minimum profit," he said. "To actually
get a contract is easy, but to perform the contract is much more
difficult."

UTS is a consortium of the Sojitz Corp. of America - a subsidiary of
a Tokyo-based firm - and Rotem Co., a South Korean manufacturer. Last
month, Rotem won its first contract to build U.S. rail cars: a $176
million pact with the Southern California Regional Rail Authority.

Rotem also has built thousands of rail cars for foreign transit
systems.

Most of the manufacturing would be done in South Korea. But final
assembly of the SEPTA and California rail cars would be done at a
site leased by UTS at the former Philadelphia Naval Shipyard.

The Philadelphia site eventually will employ at least 200 workers,
UTS project manager Hatsuhiko Kageyama said.

Three pilot cars will be due within 21/2 years after UTS receives
final approval to proceed. The last of the fleet should be delivered
within four years.

SEPTA also has an option in the contract to buy up to 16 additional
cars to accommodate ridership growth.

Asked about a possible challenge from Kawasaki, Kageyama said he
hoped his competitor "is sensitive to the needs of the public, the
people. They really are in dire need of new equipment."

UTS and Kawasaki submitted their proposals in December. Both were
reviewed by a SEPTA technical committee, which found both companies'
proposals acceptable, and deemed both companies able to carry out the
contract.

That was a switch for UTS, which had received the lowest technical
rating of the four companies evaluated in 2004. This time, its rating
was on a par with Kawasaki's.

Inflation has taken a toll, however. UTS's proposal was $8 million
higher than its 2004 bid. And Kawasaki's proposal ballooned by $46
million over its 2004 offer.

Each new Silverliner will have about 10 fewer seats than the car it
replaces. It will have fewer three-seat rows, larger windows, wider
aisles and doors, and better heating and air conditioning, according
to SEPTA. Each will have room for two wheelchairs.

SEPTA's staff also has recommended that an outside engineering
consultant, STV Inc., be awarded an $8.1 million contract to ride
herd on the project. Neil Patel, SEPTA's contract administration
director, said STV would help SEPTA management oversee the
engineering and construction of the new Silverliners.

Contact staff writer Larry King at 215-345-0446 or

"The ridership on the regional rails is so heavy, we owe it to the
public to move this along,"

That thought escaped me while reading and writing earlier posts.  I live in Fort Washington and SEPTA's station here is always jam packed with cars, as I'm sure other stations are.  Many years ago, long before the new station and parking lot were built, there was not nearly the amount of cars parked in the small lot and on the streets around the station.  I'm going back to the late seventies and eighties.  So my conclusion is that ridership must be up! 

Most stations along all of the routes have either been upgraded or rebuilt.  The Wayne Junction area is unrecognizable when one thinks of it 30 years ago.  All of this takes money, probably our tax dollars.  Which I don't mind if it's going to create a transit system that can carry us into the future.  After all, isn't the grand scheme to get cars off the road ?   

What I don't get is why things like the cross county line aren't moving forward.  If the powers that be want to create a state of the art transit system, why are they moving at a snails pace ?

Dan Padova posted:

"The ridership on the regional rails is so heavy, we owe it to the
public to move this along,"

That thought escaped me while reading and writing earlier posts.  I live in Fort Washington and SEPTA's station here is always jam packed with cars, as I'm sure other stations are.  Many years ago, long before the new station and parking lot were built, there was not nearly the amount of cars parked in the small lot and on the streets around the station.  I'm going back to the late seventies and eighties.  So my conclusion is that ridership must be up! 

Most stations along all of the routes have either been upgraded or rebuilt.  The Wayne Junction area is unrecognizable when one thinks of it 30 years ago.  All of this takes money, probably our tax dollars.  Which I don't mind if it's going to create a transit system that can carry us into the future.  After all, isn't the grand scheme to get cars off the road ?   

What I don't get is why things like the cross county line aren't moving forward.  If the powers that be want to create a state of the art transit system, why are they moving at a snails pace ?

Regional Rail carries an amazing amount of passengers during peak/commuter times and it  much of it runs quite well on a 1900's Reading Railroad infrastructure.   I don't think that is the question or the issue, and it's not the biggest cause of SEPTA's financial woes.

The "Cross County Metro" hasn't been built for obvious reasons - it's a multi-billion dollar project and Harrisburg (and DC) are broke  and much of the discussion so far has been lead by "dog and pony show" consulting firms looking for an early in for those billions.   Remember the proposal to run along the Trenton cut-off?

Certainly commuter rail plays a large part in the metro Philadelphia area.  But like anything else it takes money and that's in short supply.  Thus the letter you cited in your original post, while certainly political in nature,  had indicated decent amount of interest by those in Harrisburg who are quite appropriately worrying about the tax dollars that they are stewards of. 

Bottom line - Whether it's highway or railway infrastructure improvements it takes money from tax revenues.  And that's in short supply.

Wonder if anyone has compared the equalizer bars on the SEPTA cars to the ones on the cars shipped to Detroit six months later with which there have been no problems and should have had to meet the same Federal Standards.

Typical  project by a transit agency.  Looks like Kawasaki was right.

http://immodell.net/news/SEPTA...tress-Fractures-Are/

In this closeup photo, the red streaks show where the dye was absorbed into a stress fracture.

Some of the equalizer bars will have to be replaced: “We can’t repair cracked beams,” Hopkins said. “But there are welds that have failed without producing cracks in the beams, and more study will be needed” in order to determine how best to handle those.

http://www.phillymag.com/news/...-plan-regional-rail/

SEPTA attributes the failure to the unusual design and manufacture of the trucks. “Our Silverliner IV cars have never experienced cracks like these because they do not have welded seats on their equalizer beams,” he said.

The 230 Silverliner IV cars were built by General Electric in 1971. The 120 Silverliner Vs were delivered between 2011 and 2013, with the first cars entering revenue service in 2012.

http://www.phillymag.com/news/...-return-late-august/

SEPTA: Silverliner Vs to Begin Returning to Service in Late August

Manufacture of replacement equalizer beams will start next week. Express bus routes will also be added soon.

AUGUST 3, 2016 AT 3:52 PM

The first of the sidelined Silverliner V Regional Rail cars should return to service starting the week of August 21st, SEPTA general manager Jeffrey Knueppel announced this afternoon.

Knueppel said that manufacturer Hyundai Rotem and SEPTA would decide on a final design for the replacement equalizer beams for the cars this weekend and award the contracts for their manufacture next week.

The replacement beams will be plate steel like the originals were, but the design of the feet will be different based on the results of analysis SEPTA, Hyundai Rotem, and contractor LTK performed on the defective beams. Hyundai Rotem has already ordered the plate steel for the new beams so that manufacturing can begin quickly.

Once the manufacturing has begun, SEPTA anticipates that 10 cars a week will be returned to service beginning August 21st. If repairs continue on that schedule, the entire 120-car fleet will be back in service by November 12th. In the meantime, SEPTA is leasing additional passenger cars from MARC and Amtrak that will bring the total number of leased railcars in SEPTA service from 28 to 40. Knueppel said that with the additional leased cars in service, the agency could resume a normal weekday Regional Rail schedule by mid-October. He went on to add that as “production picks up steam as the schedule advances,” all the cars might be back in service earlier than projected as of now ...

"The "Cross County Metro" hasn't been built for obvious reasons - it's a multi-billion dollar project and Harrisburg (and DC) are broke and much of the discussion so far has been lead by "dog and pony show" consulting firms looking for an early in for those billions. Remember the proposal to run along the Trenton cut-off?"

I thought the Trenton Cutoff was the proposed route of the Cross County line that has been talked about for so long.  If it is and not a totally new route, then most of the infrastructure is already in place.  Pity that Conrail removed the catenary and upper portion of the support masts along with the second track.  Doesn't anyone look ahead ?   What would it have hurt to leave the catenary and second track in place ?

"More than 106,000 passengers take SEPTA's regional trains on
weekdays."

Is that a typo?  Doesn't sound like many, given the size of the Philly area. 

I think "Regional" in SEPTA's lexicon is what we would call "commuter".  Also, some could be commuting on NJT and Amtrak.

This appears to be a design that was originally not a weldment.  I have seen changes in design (to weldments) proposed.  It is suggested (above) that the pad is an addition.  Two things can be awkward in this: 1) the shape of the equilizer suggests that it could be flame-cut from rolled plate; and 2) the pad appears to be attached with a fillet weld (a common cost-saving arrangement).

A fillet weld ends at the two fit-up surfaces of the joint, making these two surfaces form a ready-made  crack ending at the unseen inner surface of the weld bead.  This crack will propagate into and through the weld material, depending on loading-- impact loading being a problem.

Flame-cut edges may also have cracks which can propagate into welds; it is unclear exactly what the welding detail may have been on the lower surface of the hanger in the pad area, which is a tension area.

--Frank

Great catch,  what took you so long to find my error ?!?