@davehall83 posted:My scarm looks like this instead of the nice easy to see sections you have, is that a setting?
Yes, Tools/Settings/2D View. Uncheck all but Outlines and Separators.
Many find it difficult to solder track power feeder wires to stainless steel rails. Tin plated rails are much easier to solder. Here's a link to more info on this:
Good point Steve, that’s why I said I don’t really know. 🤣 I should have also mentioned that GG and Ross libraries don’t have the same curves. They both happen to have O-42 and O-72, but they’re different lengths, so they aren’t a 1 for 1 swap. I have seen more lately who have chosen Ross track, presumably so everything looks the same. I once visited a layout in Texas that used virtually every brand and it was all weathered, so it wasn’t that noticeable.
Ross and Atlas use 22.5 degree curve sections, or 16 sections per circle. GG uses 30 degree sections, or 12 sections per circle. GG 054 and smaller use 45 degree sections. If you buy curve sections from Ross or Atlas they will all be uniform, GG will vary. Many people need the uniformity and buy Ross or Atlas. Still others use GG flex track and bend whatever curves they need. This is also pretty cost effective.
Atlas O is nickel/silver with plastic ties so it can be used outdoors. I would think stainless steel GG is for outdoors as well but not with wood ties.
I have about 150' of Atlas and close to the same amount of GG tin plate flex track down with another 200' left to go. Cost and availability led me away from Atlas. Atlas, Ross, and GG all mate up well together.
Yeah i guess i shouldn’t complain about my space then , seems like we all have wants and ambitions but need a warehouse size building to get it but this will keep me busy for a while for sure. I have also heard of some folks who prefer the solid atlas tracks because the rails aren’t hollow there just so many choices but your choice for supporting menards that’s definitely honorable for sure i hope you get a layout you well deserve especially since you design everyone else’s but your own but i can see it being fun when you know the software and have done it so much
Yeah i see what you mean on the track. Thing is people praise the solid rails on atlas over hollow rails on others. But then people love the looks of the ross and more uniformity and all and some like the wood look of gargraves. But the stainless i was wondering if it’s better for keeping rails clean and tidy but there is the soldering thing that was brought up but i plan to run the pigtails that gargraves made on pins but i hear a solder is more durable and less problematic which i can agree. But stainless may add durability or better looks it’s slot of choices and they are all nice looking tracks
Dave, I have designed no less than 10 layouts for myself, but something has always come up before the build starts. Then we decide something else is a priority, so the available space and location change. I’m not a railroader, so I just want to watch some trains go through Bedford Falls when we eventually get it set up. It’ll basically be a temporary Christmas layout that will stay up year round.
I think Atlas is the better track, but it gets pricey compared to others. The solid rail is why it’s quieter than the others, it also seems to stay clean longer. I’m originally from Wisconsin, hence my loyalty to Menards. I had planned on Atlas until the design got pared down. One thing I’ve heard about GG is there’s quite a bit of variance from track to track, like 1 rail being slightly longer than the others, so you need to take your time assembling it. Just don’t expect to lay a track, tack it in place, lay the next ones and everything will match up perfectly, dry fitting is best. Cutting the curved tracks take particular care because if they’re not cut at 90°, the straight spurs might not end up straight.
I actually lIke designing. I did programming in my former life and using SCARM takes a lot of the same skills as writing a program. A lot of modelers enjoy building more than operating trains, I enjoy designing, or at least helping when I can.
Dave, I just noticed your location. We have friends in Indian Head MD and Woodstock, not that far away, and we’ve been though your neck of the woods along the river.
Wow i know indian head very well i grew up in waldorf, md over 28 years living there and indian head is a frequent visit when i lived there. Woodstock isn't too far away either. Do you come this way often? I see your in IL. The river is definitely the nice part , i live close to the river which is nice just not too close to be in a flood zone lol, kayaks are definitely fun not to mention the mountains are really nice and trains as well. By the way how do i get the print and digital subscriber/support on my banner i paid for digital and print o gauge railroading magazine but it didn't update my profile.
@davehall83 posted:...By the way how do i get the print and digital subscriber/support on my banner i paid for digital and print o gauge railroading magazine but it didn't update my profile.
Sometimes it takes a day or so for your subscription to be updated so that your profile has the Digital Subscriber tag added along with the ability to view the included OGR videos. I'm sure it will get sorted soon, but since this is a holiday, maybe by this Monday at the latest. If this isn't resolved by then, you could contact Alan @OGR CEO-PUBLISHER
I think it is all good track each with their good and not so good points. Atlas may be a little quieter, but I also think some of that is perceived because what I do hear is lower in frequency because of the solid rails. That's what I hear in my smallish room. What one might hear in a large club layout may be different. Road bed makes a big difference also.
This is GG tin plate flex on the left, Atlas O on the right, coming off of a Ross switch.
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Thanks for that i just have to decide now what i want stainless or not the soldering thing is a good point i just dont know what advanatage stainless has. I also have to consider ross track too because turnouts are black plastic and wood phantom track is not but i like the wood phantom track too lol.
Thanks for the help there, i sent him a note because it was created on december 27th i think the issue is i didn't use the forum link to purchase the digital archives/supporting member. I went directly to the o gauge rr magazine website and bought it there, i got an account id and all that but it never updated my account here probably a mix up unless that is different than the subscription offered here and if it is, i will gladly pay the $12 to support this forum, this is quite frankly one of the best forums i have ever been on there are lots of good people here and its very encouraging.
Not sure where you saw IL, I’m in Peoria AZ (Phoenix). My first visit to Indian Head was in 1993 when I retired from the Air Force. My friend, Arlo Bowie, also grew up in Waldorf and La Plata. Our next visit was in 2009 when I retired from the post office. We’ve probably visited half a dozen times since and I’ve been to DC 10 or so times. My friend passed away in June 2020, so we’re going to try to visit his wife again in 2022, but that’s subject to how worried she is about covid.
Dan, that’s a good shot showing the differences.
Sorry i meant AZ, if your ever in the neighborhood let me know we can always talk trains lol. I am also very sorry for your loss and hopefully your friend is doing ok despite the covid and all the craziness in the world right now. I just wish it would go away to tell you the truth so we can all go back to normal lives.
Air Force is my favorite every time i think of them i think of all the air shows and blue angels i used to watch when i was a kid it was neat and still is.
I was going to ask maybe i already did but what should i lay cork under the track? If so whats a good brand of cork theres so much out there. I know midwest had one that gargraves sells as theirs.
What kinda road bed do you have in the picture there it looks good! All these tracks seem to have a good point to them and they all look good, can i just have them all lol.
My story here so everyone knows my dad when i was growing up setup my very first train table when i was about 6 in the 1988 era and we ran HO scale. He used a 4x8 plywood with some legs on it and green grass covering that they sell at hobby shops and away we went. We had just the basic dog bone circle and maybe 2 switches it was atlas track and we nailed it down with finishing nails and had some RR crossings and buildings but i always loved playing with the switches on the switching part of it and also loved RR crossings, the lights and all that and i always wanted to do more and i would get out those big atlas catalogs from the hobby shop and just dream of the bigger layouts and more switches. I never did get to expand on it. I visited my grandfathers home town about 2 years ago in Altoona, PA horse shoe curve and visiting the horse shoe curve was the best thing i ever did it sparked my model railroading memories and then i started collecting items from shows like the greenberg train show and other shows that are in MD. Ever since i have been a fanatic. I really love the bigger engines on O gauge and i love the HO scenery so its always been a hard choice between which one but i fell in love with these toy trains and everything i have seen at the shows so i just had to build my own layout and here i am
looks like i finally got my badges all good now digital subscriber + supporting member, love it!
Would you mind doing a version 2 of the most recent layout with using ross track and switches and i guess gargraves flex where needed to create custom sections, i am having a heck of a time trying to cut the flex in any rail (i know you use scarm) without getting errors that my radius is too small or it just doesnt look right see screen shot. I am recreating the drawing in any rail just so i can try it out on this software since i know it. It looks like in scarm you ended up cutting one of the gargraves o-72's to fit that inner circle section to get it straight. At least thats what i think you did. I didn't know you could cut the regular track, if you can maybe i can cut the gargraves O-72.
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Happy New Year!
The road bed is Ross under the switches. All the rest is Flexxbed from Hobby Innovations. Good stuff. Not necessarily cheap and a little different experience to order but I'm happy with it.
I don't know SCARM but I can help with AnyRail. Here is how I make curves with flex track. I'm using GG but this works with atlas flex in AnyRail also.
Highlight and right click on a piece of flex track. Select "Curve flex".
You'll get a window for entering the angle and radius of the curve you want. I'm using 22.5 degrees and radius of 36".
This will create a curved piece already sized to length.
Cutting is just as easy. Put your cursor where you want to make the cut and right click for the menu. Select "Cut flex here".
Now you have two pieces of track at the length and radius you want.
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Dave, I can convert the design to Ross track, but I didn’t use any flex track. While it’s easy to use flex in software, I think you’ll find it difficult to bend and align flex in reality, especially short pieces like the one in your photo. You have to take special care to align the joints to avoid kinks and that’s a lot easier with longer pieces. It’s also easier to bend to O-72 than it is to O-42. O scale flex is not at all like HO scale flex, I’ve played with ScaleTrax flex (arguably the easiest to bend) and used flex on one of my HO layouts in the past
At any rate, I followed Dan’s AnyRail instructions to bend flex to 22.5°/36” and how to cut it, but that didn’t show how to fill a gap with flex. I don’t know if AnyRail lets you measure the gap and use that in place of 36” to get a perfectly sized 22.5° flex curve. I assume you cut sectional track the same way. In SCARM, you add a flex track to one end of the gap, then move the cursor to the other end and right-click. The hard part is maintaining the O-72 or O-42 curve when installing real flex track on the layout. And, yes, I see the “kink” in your example and that’s the problem when laying actual track.
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Dave, if the piece is flex you can disconnect it, grab the end with the cursor and drag it where you need to. If you pull it longer than an unmodified flex length it will turn red to warn you.
All of my straight Atlas track is flex but I don't recommend it for bending curves because it is very difficult to bend even with large radii. It will constantly try to return to straight. I struggled to get a 5 degree bend with a radius close to 088. Note also that even with this small bend it was necessary to trim the rails even on one end. That's just how it works making curves with any flex track.
Most all of my curves are close to 080 and 088. I made a plywood curve template to match the radius at the inside edge of the ties. This made bending the curves much easier and avoids kinking even across joints. The GG flex is 37" so it is not too difficult to get 30 degree pieces and cut down on a few joints. People have reported bending flex around the bottom of small trash cans. No matter how you bend flex it will always need to be trimmed even. That's pretty easy with a dremel but there are many ways to do it.
I believe this is why GG sectional pieces are not uniform, they are bent in a similar manner. Most GG users are used to laying a piece, trimming it, laying the next. . .
There is also the choice to use sectional track in curves as they can also be cut to whatever you need.
I don't think AnyRail will cut sectional track.
Wing it
I did my outside loops including my elevated up and downs,
All the rest has been changed many times and evolved over the years,it was part of what I enjoyed.
Sitting up there and dreaming of what I would do next.
Yes please can you convert to ross track for me so i can see that version. I did what others said and that’s how i ended up putting flex in the design but your right and i rather not have to try and bend flex track. It looked like on the gargraves version you used regular sectional curves and cut them which anyrail won’t let you do it only allows it on flex track. But i much rather if your able to take sectional track and cut it, do that instead of dealing with flex. i just didn’t know you could do that, but in the drawing world scarm is the only one i found out that will let you cut sectional track so i used flex track as a “filler” to make the software happy but i made notes to just buy the sectional track pieces and cut them.
I much rather stick with ross sectional track 100% that’s my preference and not use any flex track if i can help it just less headaches as me i much rather cut a sectional piece of i had to choose a piece o had to cut.
One piece that’s not even in any rails track library is the O42X i saw you used which i didn’t even know existed and i couldn’t find it on Ross website but that sure makes things easier if he has transitions like that.
I guess this is telling me i need to learn scarm and use it and don’t look back lol.
One question had and it looks like ross track is all tinplated steel is that the same tinplated as gargraves tinplate or is it a bit different material ?
I believe ross switches are also tinplate steel or are they all steel?
I was assuming at first the ross track was more of a plastic wood tie because of the black color but their web site says they use real wood ties. I was like well if i had to buy for say a bumper or just a piece of gargraves track does the phantom wood or phantom plastic match the ross better?
Also i do have a bunch of gargraves track pins, their #4 screws, pigtail wires that go between the track pins and all that mess do you think that will work with ross track? I see ross track when you buy it you can ask for sectional wires to be added to each piece for $4.95 but is that the same thing it’s just a pin that slides in one of the rails with a pigtail that hangs down?
I wonder what ross wants you to do to secure their track to a permanent layout like is it the same as gargraves where you drill a 1/8 hole in the wood tie and use an #4 pan head screw
The other part is i would definitely like to use ross bed because it looks easier to lay than regular cork with the track grooves in there.
Happy New year to everyone here!
Thats exactly what i did in anyrail which works fine with flex but i can’t cut sectional track like scarm. I wish they wills add some things scarm could do because any rail is easy to use but most folks like scarm i noticed so i may be having to switch to that if i need to cut sectional curves and straights. I got a dermal 4400 for christmas as well as gyro wheels for gargraves that should do it for cutting and also got the dremel reinforced wheels as well
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:I believe this is why GG sectional pieces are not uniform, they are bent in a similar manner. Most GG users are used to laying a piece, trimming it, laying the next. . .
There is also the choice to use sectional track in curves as they can also be cut to whatever you need.
I don't think AnyRail will cut sectional track.
That is what the folks at GarGraves told me. Trouble is folks tend to think they can just lay GG tracks and things will match the software, they’re used to FasTrack just snapping together.
I played around with your instructions and figured out what Dave was doing wrong. All he needed to do with his short piece of flex is select it, then right-click and select the “Smooth flex” option. And you’re right, I also don’t see an option to cut sectional track, so gaps need to be filled with flex.
BTW, is there any way to change the dimensions from cm to inches? I didn’t see one.
EDIT: I found it.
You can still do the design in scarm i’m fine with that. I was just trying it out last night and i did do the smooth flex option but i still had a very nasty curve joint lol. I rather use 100% ross and cut sectionals trust me i see what your saying i bought a few pieces of flex to see how it worked and i said to myself you know if i can get away cutting sectional track that would be ideal lol
Its under the settings area i believe in measurements you can change from cm to in
Dave, I found the cm to inches setting.
I also retried the smooth flex option and saw what you meant. I think the difference is I lined things up using an O-42 curve, so the flex was replacing a section of O42 curve and it came out smooth. I offset the switch a tiny bit and got the same result you did.
I also don’t see the O42x in the AnyRail library, but both SCARM and RR-Track list is separately. I don’t see it or the O42p on the Ross order sheet. Maybe they come with the O-42 switch like the makeup curves for some FasTrack switches. FWIW, the O42 switch design serves a dual purpose. Adding the O42x gives you a complete O-42 curve while adding the O42p gives you a parallel spur. That’s not the case with the other switches.
I have no idea about the pigtails, type of track or how to secure them.
If you’re comfortable with AnyRail, I wouldn’t switch just because of the O42x. I would check with Steve to see if it’s actually sold separator cones with the switch.
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ok got it. The Other reason to switch is the scarm can cut sections which we needed for this. Would you be willing to draw up ross sectional track in scarm ?
I’m starting the conversion now.
davehall83, I think you would be very happy with Ross sectional track. Many consider Ross switches as the best you can buy. Those other 042 pieces don't exist but you can cut them from 042 curves as you lay the track. Those are 45 degrees so you should be able to get two pieces to do what DoubleDAZ designed. In software you can fill these in with flex if you really need to.
Yes, use the #4 screws. You can buy them from Ross or from McMaster-Carr.
I don't have any experience with the Ross wire drops. For Ross and GG I flip the piece over and solder wires directly to the rails. One drop covers 12 feet or more of track. I solder directly to the Atlas track clips, much like the ones they sell, because it is difficult to solder to solid rails without melting the plastic ties.
Dan, they had them 4 years ago, but if you're sure they don't have them now, I'll inform Milen and get the SCARM library changed, or at least have him check with Steve to confirm.
I see i thought maybe the O45X was a piece that they sold but now that makes sense just cut it but i have a question out to steve at ross to see if they come in the O42 turnouts like doubledaz suggested they possibly may come as a package thing to help complete that curve.
Its nice that it covers at least 12 feet of track but if i wanted to be really careful to ensure no voltage drops maybe every 6 feet or is that over kill?
When you solder the wires are you doing it on the side of the rails at the bottom of the rail? Thats my worry too is i got a good weller and it has plenty of tips just wasn't sure if i risk melting the track ties.
Does anyone have a suggested transformer to use i have a CW-80 and a GW-180 (but may sell the GW-180). I was thinking a ZW-L at some point or the MTH equivalent i just want something nice and that has plenty of power to push multiple locos especially if i isolate track.
Dave, assuming Dan is correct, I went ahead and cut replacements for the O42x and O42p tracks. I left the originals in (clear tracks), just moved them out of the way. One thing to note is that the track center rails are about 3" from the edges, so you need to check the clearance needed for the engines you plan to run. The design can be shrunk 8", the length of the Orange straight track on the left side. If it needs to be shrunk, the spurs will have to be shortened a bit.
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Thanks again for doing this so track center rails are about 3" from the edges, your saying the orange line on the right side is the 3" issue? Do you think i will have issues with a big boy or something like that running? I think if i am looking at this right the potential 3" issue track is the right side where they go over the opening? What made the center of the rails different i guess thats something new for me to understand 
Just want to make sure i do this as trouble free as possible
Even if Ross doesn't offer it as a package with the s 042 switch I wouldn't be surprised if he cut a curve sectional to what you want if you asked him.
Sure 6 - 8 feet between drops is fairly common. Voltage drops are going to be determined more by distance from the transformer and wire size.
I use a Weller, around 675 degrees with a 3/32 wide tip. I tin the wire and bottom of a rail, then solder the wire to the rail. This helps cut down on the time the heat is applied. Other than getting in between them, the wooden ties shouldn't be a problem. I don't use flux but I do scuff the rail a tiny bit with the dremel, especially the center rail.
Once steve gets back to me if the answer is no on the O45X and P's then i will ask if he minds cutting me some save me some time lol. I am running 14 gauge copper wire for all my power drops. I do home runs to a break out panel that has the + and - Side with screw terminals. Then it has a bus bar connection for the + and - off the transformer.
I wanted to use 14 gauge to alleviate any issues with voltage drops and have a good solid connection and i totally believe in solder. I have this weller kit i just purchased just for my train hobby and i always need a good solder gun when i want one i never seem to have one so i got a good one.
Weller WE1010EDU Soldering Education Kit, Multicolor, 8-piece kit
https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
What percentage or type of solder is good for this 60/40?
Got a response from steve on that O42X and P this is what he said basically its cut my own.
No its easily cut to any length with the dremel
You add the P to any section of track and we will solder the clips to it
I asked him about cutting one for me and this his statement
Probably cant cut it to the exact length you want. Your drawing you will find is an approximation and everything most likely will not fit without some adjustments
@davehall83 posted:Thanks again for doing this so track center rails are about 3" from the edges, your saying the orange line on the right side is the 3" issue? Do you think i will have issues with a big boy or something like that running? I think if i am looking at this right the potential 3" issue track is the right side where they go over the opening? What made the center of the rails different i guess thats something new for me to understand
No, I'm saying the short Orange track (red circle) on the left between the 2 switches is only 8" long, so you can only shrink the layout that much. I took 8" out of all 4 sides and the photo on the right shows those changes. I'm not suggesting you do that, I'm just saying that the maximum because once the 2 switches join, you can cut any more.
The little Yellow box at the top of the photo on the left is 3" deep showing the distance from the center track to the wall. We tend to measure from center track to center track when discussing track separation. Dan mentioned the spacing for the 11° and #4 switches as being 3.5" and 4.5" respectively. The 3" I'm talking about is not exactly the same because it's to a wall, not to another track, so it's actually equivalent to 4" or so. The general rules of thumb is 3.5" separate in yards and 4.5" on mainlines. However, when curves are involved that may need to increase because of the overhang of the cowcatcher and the midsection of long cars, like passenger cars. Unfortunately, there is no standard for cowcatchers and the amount of overhang depends on the curve, the tighter the curve, the more overhang. It also depends on the specific engine because there is more that one version of a Big Boy. The only way to know is to lay some tracks and place the engine on them to measure the maximum overhang through the curve. If you know the specific engine, someone might be able to tell you how much there is with O-72 curves. Some modelers play it safe and use a separation of 6" or more because they don't know what equipment they'll buy in the future.
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Got it that makes sense so the good thing is i have 2 to 4 inches from the edge of the blue line to the wall so the table isn’t exactly but up against the wall so that will help with that. Thanks again now i think i’m ready to start building and buying track lol! now the fun begins but this will evolve slowly as i’m sure there probably is at least $2500 in track between switches , road bed and sectional track but the good thing is i can do the outer circle first get those switches in place then keep going and test as i go
@davehall83 posted:Got a response from steve on that O42X and P this is what he said basically its cut my own.
No its easily cut to any length with the dremel
You add the P to any section of track and we will solder the clips to it
I asked him about cutting one for me and this his statement
Probably cant cut it to the exact length you want. Your drawing you will find is an approximation and everything most likely will not fit without some adjustments
He probably didn't understand that the only reason it's an approximation in the drawing is because he no longer offers those tracks, so we substituted cut tracks. He may not have the dimensions he used when he did offer them, but they were both standard pieces at the time. SCARM says they're 4.76"/11.73" respectively while RR-Track says 4.62"/11.38", maybe they're both using different rails for the measurement. He's right though that you have to cut carefully or the tracks connected to it will not be straight.
Here's an example. for the design. The lower cut is correct and the connected track is straight. The upper cut is off by just a bit even though it looked right, but you can see the connected track is not straight. Now, if you lay that switch, then the cut track and subsequent straights, they are not going to connect where they need to. That's why it's important to lay sectional track and dry fit things before cutting, especially curves.
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Yeah i get that for sure now, thanks for pointing that out. I was just thinking how easy it could be to throw off an entire circle or layout just by once piece not being cut right so laying it out and pushing the sectional together maybe the best bet then cut the pieces last, the other thing is im sure this is common but when i did it on fast track its always that last piece that completes a circle that i have to bend twist and curse at to get it to go together and sometimes i get worried im going to bend it too much or put too much force im going to break it or get it out of alignment i like to do things carefully and right so i guess im in for the learning curve on this but the dremel with the gyro cutoff wheel will be my friend on the O42's, i have learned so much just on this forum alone its amazing like the fact that i can cut sectional track and put pins in it to connect it was something i didn't know i could do that changes everything. I thought you could only do that with flex but now i know its done made a world of a difference and it would be much easier IMO to cut something thats already curved to the radius i need
FWIW, I found that it was far easier to achieve the results I was looking for by using flex track for much of my track.
As for uniformity between Gargraves & Ross, I personally don't think there's so much difference that I need to sweat it.
Ross switch on the left, Gargraves FLEX on the right. Both are tin plated rails with wooden ties. Some of my Gargraves has ties much closer to the Ross shade, other pieces are lighter like this one. This is older track, probably why it's lighter.
