Trains, Trolleys, and Diners: The real story

Hi Colorado Hirailer,

Hope you enjoyed your time in the Smokies -- such a beautiful part of America.  Some late night googling confirmed your post today that it's Mel's Classic Diner at 119 Wears Valley Road, Pigeon Forge, TN.

To me it looks like it may have been built onsite and would be easy to model, except for the neon :-).  The website says that it was built in 1993, which would explain why the classic book "American Diners: Then and Now" makes no mention of it nor any TN diners.  (It was published in the same year.)

If you were heading due north, Sevierville looks like the next town over, and it is home to Mells (different spelling) Diner, now known as The Diner.  This one looks like it was built by one of the newer diner building manufacturers.  With the big boxy look, stainless steel X shapes, they've gotten completely away from the rail dining car proportions, not to mention the 50's automobile-friendly diners they seek to evoke.  The Diner, Sevierville, TN  Notice the heavier use of glass blocks seen in the cowcatcher and challenger posts.  It's been taken to new extreames in the newer buildings.

It cracks me up when somebody with a video camera posting on You Tube goes on and on about the old "railroad car" that they're filming. Not! 

Great trolley find:

In tracking down these two restaurants, I stumbled on Brown's Diner in Hillsboro Village, Nashville, TN.  In 1929, Charlie Brown [yup] set up a mule-drawn trolley as a bar and restaurant at this location.  He built a foundation around the wheels to avoid taxes, a common occurence in those days.  So, the trolley wheels are still there.  You can see the curved interior roof in one black and white shot on their website. And there are several exterior photos on the web.  A news post about a prior fire says there are two cars but it's impossible to tell from photos/aerial views.  John Bader, the painter mentioned in an earlier post about the Trolley Stop in Lowell, also painted this real trolley-turned-diner.

Tennessee Diner in a Mule-Drawn Nashville Trolley

Thanks for sharing.

Tomlinson Run Railroad

P.S. - Forumites, do you have a Mel's Diner or Drive-in on your layout? Show us your pics.  One food reviewer thought the popularity of the name was due to the TV show "Alice" set in Mel's Diner. 

Original American diner buildings have been shipped to Canada, Britain, and parts of Europe where restauranteurs have tried to cash in on their appeal and unique-American association.   By comparison, it turns out that converting retired trolley and rail cars into diner-like restaurants isn't unique to the United States.  Here are a few samples -- in this case, featuring another American dining experience.  Yes, it's another photo-laden post about the ever ubiqitous McDonald's!  In how many languages can you say "Do you want fries with that?" while standing inside a former rail/trolley car? 

There could be more. I just happened to stumble upon these while doing my U.S. research.

Tomlinson Run Railroad

Australia

Trams inside restaurant (gone)

Germany
German example (look for English link that says it goes to the page you are looking for)

Or try this link (note pantograph still attached):

http://www.drehscheibe-online..../read.php?17,5562609   Scroll down a short way to McDrive and the German trolley photo.

Rumania (note pantograph)

https://www.google.com/imgres?...mp;iact=c&ictx=1
http://iasifun.ziaruldeiasi.ro...-pentru-copii/22239/  (scroll down a little past halfway)

New Zealand

Not a train but entertaining none-the-less

P.S. -- All of a sudden I feel hungry.

While I was pondering  the differences and similarities between diner architecture and railroad design, it occurred to me that one area of difference is found in the locations of the kitchens. 

First the similarities: In both diner buildings and kitchen rail cars, the kitchen equipment was in a tightly enclosed space that was designed for economy.   Both dealt with early and evolving forms of heating the cooking surface (trains: wood, coal; diners: coal? gas), and both kitchens used ice-filled refrigerators to keep the provisions cold.  It was obviously important to separate the hot from the cold sections in such small kitchens; you can see how this was attempted via floor plans.  The resulting space was so tight that both diner cooks and dining car chefs and their waitstaff developed a special type of shuffle for getting around the tight spaces.  Popular legend says that fellow works can identify one another on the street by their distinctive walk.

That said, one big difference was that the train kitchen was a separate car, or it was built at one end of the car, separated from the dining section.  Railroads were trying to create the experience of a hotel on wheels for their patrons.  When you read ad copy for modern dinner trains, they continue to stress the importance of enjoying the ever-changing view while you dine on fine food.

In diner buildings, the kitchen was traditionally located along a back bar, parallel to the counter and booths (although many later added a real kitchen at the rear or in a basement to provide greater working space).  Part of the fun of eating in a diner is watching the cook prepare the food.

And in both settings it can be a treat sitting with people who you don't know and making them your new best friends for a few moments over food.  Both dining cars and diners have similar, large windows -- something that the contemporary diner buildings have held on to while they've moved further away from the railcar/moderne engine look.

Summation: On a rail car, patrons were entertained as they watched the changing scenery out the window while eating world class food.  In a diner, patrons ate comfort food and were entertained as they watched the chef and waitstaff work, or the foot traffic outside the window.  Both models work for me!  Here is a cartoon (also posted elsewhere today) that makes it clear how important a window with a rolling view was. So much better than those ubiquitous individual drop-down movie screens on buses and airplanes now-a-days:

And now for some actual photos ... Speaking of comfort food, I don't have any converted rail or trolley car photos to share as I am back to school and so no road trips, but I do have these two.  I've written about how the recent surge in food trucks put more converted "bus trolley" restaurants on the road.  These two are smaller stationary versions that are towed behind a vehicle and then left on site --  just like the original diners.  The first photo was taken in New Hampshire for me by a friend many years ago. This "trolley" sold Italian comfort food:

This next "trolley" is Ed's Weenies located at a farm stand in "metro-west" Massachusetts.  Ed's recently won the number three slot in the Boston Globe's Cheap Eats contest.  The proud kitchen helper noted that it was great but odd because the hot dog vendor is no where near Boston.  The owner's a stellar neighbor who always gives back to the town, so I'm not surprised. 

Apparently, when Ed had his kitchen custom built he specifically had it designed to look like a trolley.  He's not been around to ask why he wanted this look, but his helper pointed out the popular red and yellow colors -- or, as she said: "Catsup and mustard! " Doh!  It never occurred to me. Check out the earlier photos/links I posted on the many McD's conversions and my photos of the latest incarnation of the Trolley Stop in Lowell, MA ... Yup, you guessed it, they're catsup and mustard:

Tomlinson Run Railroad

TRRR- Love your posts on the trolleys, diners, etc. I have always been fascinated by dining cars and the military dining cars they built during WW II.  I got a good look at one, I think it was at Spencer, NC. Worked for awhile in my frat kitchen and  there was a diner in "downtown" State College, Pa. where we would and sit and watch the cook behind the counter.  I wonder if they teach that at culinary school  ??

Hey Jim!

Thanks!  Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself or boring you guys to tears :-).  And I wish I had more photos.

You know, it's an interesting thing about those military kitchen cars.  How neat you got to see one up close.  Just poking around following my general interests per this post has turned up what seems to be several ex-military kitchens that have survived.  The 1950 "Colonial Hearth" at Connecticut's Valley RR is one that comes immediately to mind, but there have been others.  Perhaps their practical application as a kitchen car meant that some lasted longer than other types of rail cars?  

James Porterfield's excellent book _Dining by Rail_ devotes considerable text to the increased demand on the kitchen crew and no doubt provisions stocking efforts during the WWII years when service personnel had to be transported AND fed by the nations and services' railroads.

What didn't seem to happen (as far as I can tell) is that wanna be restaurant owners were NOT buying old kitchen cars -- military or otherwise -- as a way to get a ready made kitchen for a diner or restaurant.  Diner buildings on the other hand, came well equiped with both the kitchen and dining area.  If you bought a retired trolley or rail car, you were free to mimic a diner's interior visible kitchen, build your kitchen out from the side of the car, or design whatever you wanted.  I'd guess those rail car kitchens would be pretty beat or out-dated.  

There's an example of a converted trolley in Shafter, California whose owner mimicked a diner building by taking up space with the kitchen bar inside the trolley car body. It was a 1910s? Pacific Electric #466, formerly a Fresno Traction Car and Peninsula RR (?). It became a diner in 1943 and the Red Wagon Cafe is still going strong. I'll add a link to pictures when I have time later. 

I dunno about teaching budding chefs "performance" art like how to entertain patrons while cooking (=grin=) but the ability to work under pressure AND be observed certainly sets the diner cook apart from the dining car chef.  It's a great idea. 

Johnson and Wales Culinary School has a culinary arts museum and they have sponsored diner events and at least one exhibit in the past.  Diner fans are a lot like railfans!  The school takes pride in Providence, Rhode Island's history as the birthplace of the first horse drawn diner.  I wonder whether they have any railroad cookbooks, dining car artifacts, and the like in their collection?

The closest I came to your frat experience was during my first year of college. I got a summer job as a short order cook (no height jokes, please) at the Officer's PX Snack Bar at Fort Devens, MA.  It was set up very much like a diner range out in the open for cooking burgers, chicken, fries, onion rings, pizza, and etc. But I think the long bar area parallel to the grill was only for the servicemen to order and then line up to pay at the cash register; there was a separate area for table seating.  Fort Devens was decomissioned years ago and the PX and snack bar long gone, but the large train yard on the base is now a busy Norfolk Southern intermodal yard with connections to Pan AM and commuter train tracks.

Thanks for your encouragement and stories.

Tomlinson Run Railroad

Please don't stop !!  Not boring. I wish I had saved all your posts and photos, it would make a great book. I imagine the RR cooks were like the diner short order cooks-poetry in motion. The crack the eggs and have them on the grill, toast in toaster, bacon frying,  smear butter on without missing a beat.  State College  had a diner where we went that was famous for their buttered fried sticky buns.  We would sit there and watch the cook( a collegiate wrestler) at work. He was the bouncer too. Some wise guy kept touching the waitress where he shouldn't have, he was politely asked to stop but didn't so he was hauled outside and body slammed.  That ended that and the cook went back to the grill. I don't think the dining car kitchens fit a commercial  need too well.

I'll bet Jim's PA college diner was the late-1950s Silk City-built "Baby's (eat and get out) Diner". Right?  Diner website  At Baby's it's all about the red and white colors (and apparently sticky buns).  Here's a Google Image search for more pictures: Lots of photos ...  

Recently in this post we've investigated mustard and catsup colors on converted cars and food trailers, but the 50's red and white look is popular, too.  As described in the 20 October 2016 post, the Newport & Narragansett Bay RR created a 50s-style diner inside of a rail car.  For your viewing pleasure, here are some more examples of rail car/trolley "diners" -- also featuring the classic red and white Coca Cola look.  Most embedded photos are from places like Yelp followed by pointers to more official sources and copyrighted photos.

The Diner Car, Doolittle's Restaurant, DuBois, PA

Not far from State College, PA is a converted 1944 PRR Pullman car "diner". This local attraction also has a gorgeous 1913 Milwaukee Road parlor car-turned dining room:

Now, if I were an art historian, I might call this a "transitional" piece because, while the seats, tables, and walls are in 50's red and white, and the floor is a typical checkerboard, it is a catsup red and yellow mustard checkerboard.  Clearly, the designers took some stylistic license.  Here are more links.  The railroad station is new but was built from B&O plans:

DuBois Area Historical Society Article (nice)

TV News Video and Story and the Official Website

Rock and Roll Diner, Oceana, CA

This "diner" was created from two streamlined passenger cars placed end-to-end. One is smooth-sided, the other is a fluted Budd observation car.  Wow-Za!

 Lots of photos (Google image search) , Official website, and Short video of the exterior.

Angels' Diner, Palatka, FL

Back on the east coast is a steel-sided rail car of some type (?). Can anyone hazard a guess? The restaurant dates from 1932.  The interior design isn't too heavy on the 50s-look but the plates do sport black and white checkerboards:

Angel's doesn't seem to have a website but they are on Angel's Diner FB Page and some More photos.  To be continued ...

Tomlinson Run Railroad

Here are two more examples of a trolley and rail car turned into diners that feature red and white/50s design. I didn't see any "safe" pix to snag, so sadly you'll have to click for the visuals.

Dudie's Diner, Tupelo, MS

This diner was built from a 1923 St. Louis lightweight car that saw service as Memphis Street Railway #630.  Depending on the source, it was converted to a restaurant in 1945 or 47; and is the focal point for a hamburger festival at the museum where it now resides:

Dudie's Diner earlier more prototypical look,  Blog pix, Google image hits (lots of pix), and the Oren Dunn City of Tupelo Museum website (caution: this link wasn't up before).

50s Train Diner, Murdo, South Dakota

Self-consciously called the "50s Train Diner" and sometimes the "Sante Fe Train Diner", this attraction in 1880 Town, SD is built around a 1950s Sante Fe train that ran between Chicago and California.  It was moved to this site in 1982.  The fifties memorabilia and red and white Coca-Cola sign leave little to the imagination regarding where the design inspiration came from.  The website says the restrooms are in the Milwaukee station next door:

Nice pix and Coca-Cola sign and Official 1880 Town website

Valentine Diners, Kansas

In addition to the association with Coca-Cola and checkered picnic table cloths, the red and white color motif was found inside real manufactured diner buildings like Baby's Diner in State College, PA that kicked off this post.  Who knows which came first?  In the 1940s, one actual diner manufacturer created small restaurant buildings whose exteriors were painted in bright red and white.  Valentine Diners competed with big diner manufacturers like Worcester in MA and Silk City in NJ.  In their spiffy paint, these buildings bucked the east coast tradition -- Valentine Diners was based in Kansas and many of their buildings were found in the west and mid-west.  These are really awesome buildings and would look great on a layout.  They, however, look like buildings not rail cars or moderne engines. Google Image search (lots of pix)

This post desperately needs some photos, so here they are.  Following is a tip from TRRR on converting your layout space into a 50s diner, complete with repurposed rail car:

Next is a fun cookbook that includes recipes and CDs to play while you cook or dine.  In spite of its name, it is not related to the California streamliner diner in the previous post.  It does however, showcase the black and white checkerboard shown on dinner plates and train sides in the prior post:

And lastly, in keeping with the season (seasonings?), here is Donder's Diner featured in who-knows-what-scale:

Speaking of red and white, Santa used to sit on the left-most stool but he fell behind the counter, and being ... er ... somewhat corpulent got wedged back there.  He does, however, send his warmest "Ho, ho, ho" and hopes to free himself in time for the Big Day of train riding with Donder and friends:

Tomlinson Run Railroad (on vacation!)

OK TR RR, my diner in State College is now the "Ye Olde College Diner".  The other is newer.  In my day, if you had $5 you had a real date- movie in town and a stop at another diner on the walk back to the  frat. We would get cheeseburgers and a milk shake. Big times. Very few had cars-we walked  Ch.13 WQED in Pgh. made a show on diners, Pa. diners, I think. I will pick one up if I can find it. Eat N Park, a western Pa, restaurant chain tried a retro diner on Rt.30 near Jeanette, Pa. but it bombed.  Just curious, TR RR, is your handle related in any way to a stream in beautiful  West(By-Gawd) Virginia  ??

Ah, I conflated the two State College, PA diners.  So forget the red and white ... From web photos, your diner has superb brown and tan tile work flooring and an Art Deco exterior. Clearly, it is earlier than Baby's and to my eye much more attractive.  Very nice and great memories!

Eat N Park sounds familiar; I'll have to investigate my sources.

Yes, "Tomlinson Run" is a play on words partially based on the WVA park and my name.  I've never been there; sadly they don't have a railroad, but happily I do :-).

Tomlinson Run Railroad

There was a diner in downtown Aberdeen, MD that I'm not sure was a RR car, but it looked like one. The pace was a 50s-60s time capsule, and I loved eating there when I was still stationed at the Proving Ground.

There was a neat restaurant at Vancouver, WA just inside the insanely-busy wye where the old SP&S met the old NP. They had several RR passenger cars and a hack connected to the building. Sadly, it was out of business the first time I ever saw the place and the cars were scrapped a couple of years later. The hack, I heard, got saved by someone. The other cars are on the other side and the tracks are to the right. It would have been an amazing place to eat and watch trains but I heard it was pricey and the food wasn't very good.

My all-time favorite, though, would have to be another long-closed-before-I-got-there one, the Tweetsie Diner in Newland, NC. Sadly, this burned to the ground in a fire a few years after this photo was taken with my in it, I think circa 1982:

Sadly, this was former ET&WNC coach 23, the last surviving coach from the old Tweetsie...

TR RR- there are RR tracks south of the park in Weirton. Get your crew to run a branch north along the Ohio River plus the NS is across the Ohio River. Artistic license.   Eat N Park started in the South Hills area of Pgh and we would go to the first one where the waitresses brought your tray of food to the car. Can't be more retro than that.  they have expanded but not sure if they have gone out of state. They are home of the "Smiley"  cookie. Also, at first, they featured the  "Big Boy' hamburger but that was copyrighted and eventually they dropped that name but not the sandwich. Still a great place to eat.

p51 posted:

There was a diner in downtown Aberdeen, MD that I'm not sure was a RR car, but it looked like one. The pace was a 50s-60s time capsule, and I loved eating there when I was still stationed at the Proving Ground.

>> p51/Lee,

>> Thanks for your excellent post and sharing your photos.  This is great.  The New Ideal Diner was an actual diner building with a train-car feel built in 1952 by the Jerry O'Mahoney Co. of NJ.  Looks like it is gone but here are some interesting links: 

>>  http://retroroadmap.com/spot/t...md-you-are-my-ideal/

>> http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...-20140831-story.html

>> http://msa.maryland.gov/megafi...df/msa_se5_15169.pdf

There was a neat restaurant at Vancouver, WA just inside the insanely-busy wye where the old SP&S met the old NP.

=snip=

>> You may be in luck here.  Washington state has a high number of railcars used as restaurants.  I'll see what I have and post more later.  Nice picture, by the way.

My all-time favorite, though, would have to be another long-closed-before-I-got-there one, the Tweetsie Diner in Newland, NC.

>> Gosh, I can see why it would be your all-time favorite.  This RR was new to me.  I'm a fan of narrow gauge and can't imagine how a narrow gauge car was converted to a restaurant.  But if the original diners were horse-drawn wagons, clearly it's possible.

>> What a great photo of you and a fantastic car-turned- building.  The unusual clapboard treatment reminds me of some of the "updating/modernizing" that gets done to authentic diner buildings.  There's one that is so bad, that it has an award for bad taste named after it.  I'll scan and post a pix of the Lou-Roc shortly.

>> For those like me who are curious to learn more, here are links to the current Tweetsie Railroad, including a nice interactive history timeline: 

>> https://tweetsie.com/explore-t...vent-charter-granted

>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweetsie_Railroad

>> Thanks again for your contribution, Lee.

See my inline comments in p51's note above, prefaced with >>.  (On my iPad and in a rush.)

TRRR

jim pastorius posted:

TR RR- there are RR tracks south of the park in Weirton. Get your crew to run a branch north along the Ohio River plus the NS is across the Ohio River. Artistic license. 

Eat N Park started in the South Hills area of Pgh

=snip=

Also, at first, they featured the  "Big Boy' hamburger but that was copyrighted and eventually they dropped that name but not the sandwich. Still a great place to eat.

Ha!  I'd have to enlarge my living room for that branch. The TRRR is in Massachusetts -- inspite of the investment in PRR rolling stock.

My memories of road trips centered around holiday drives from Pittsburgh to visit relatives in Harrisburg.  (As a kid, my lucky mother used to do the same trip by train, courtesy of my grandfather's job at the PRR.)  I loved it when we stopped at a Big Boy Restaurant.  Big Boy hamburgers remain my favorite.  They tasted great and the "Big Boy" character was so iconic.  These days, when I want to eat something I probably shouldn't, I have to make do with a Big Mac.  Too far to drive for the real thing.

TRRR

No ! No!  You create a holding company like W&P with a common paint scheme but not connected. You never heard of the Tweetsie ??  A great RR.

jim pastorius posted:

No ! No!  You create a holding company like W&P with a common paint scheme but not connected. You never heard of the Tweetsie ??  A great RR.

Needless to say, I'm flabbergasted that someone hasn't heard of the East Tennessee & Western North Carolina RR, which the 'flatland tourists' called 'the Tweetsie' by the late 30s (though it was never a popular name among the locals).

That said, I have to face facts that when it comes to narrow gauge lines, it's "all Colorado/New Mexico, all the time" for most train fans. There were some amazing narrow gauge lines all over the country but many just think of the old D&RGW/D&S/RGS lines and nothing else... The ET&WNC had a line through the Doe River Gorge outside of Hampton, TN that rivaled anything the Rio Grande ever had. Thankfully, rails were re-laid in the early 60s as part of an ill-fated tourist operation that is now owned by a Christian camp that has maintained the line and allowed train buffs to come check it out.

Aerogipsy posted:

The very first one was in Portland, Oregon but sadly it was moved a few years back. They have a very impressive location down by the river there, but sort of out of the way. There are newer ones in the region, but they all have a newly-build trolley-looking structure in the middle. Only the Tacoma one (which moved a few blocks, last year) has an original trolley still inside it.

The Seattle one (the red brick building in the below photo) is in the process of closing right now, which is really sad as it was right next to the BNSF/NP/Amtrak main line:

Though it's one of her favorite restaurants, my wife never liked eating in the trolley in the Tacoma location, as it rocked on its suspension and trucks back then. When it was moved, it was apparently given a far more sturdy position in it's new location.

Fog City Diner in San Francisco is an upscale diner built to look like an old dinning car. Great place. Don

p51,

Don't get too upset that I haven't heard of the Tweetsie; I'm fairly new to the hobby (1:1 and O); and let's just say that I don't get out much and leave it at that :-).  The Doe River Gorge link that you posted looks like a beautiful mountain route for sure -- and I see your point about the western narrow gauge routes being more familiar to most. 

When it comes to east coast narrow gauge, I'm closer to and therefore somewhat familiar with lines in Maine. They seem to be having quite the renaissance at the present.  There are three restorations that I'm aware of.  In case you didn't see it, here is a post with some pictures from my October visit to one of them.  It certainly doesn't have any route to speak of, but they have a nice collection of cars and a museum that I still hope to explore: Forum topic in Narrow Gauge RR, Potland, Maine.

Thanks for the pix and info on the Old Spaghetti Factory.  For those interested, my notes (taken from Bera.org), say that the SEATTLE restaurant's trolley is a 1917 St. Louis Car Co., Birney Safety model, part of order #1117.  My notes are sloppy, but it looks like it was #360 Puget Sound Traction Light & Power.  And then PPS in 1938?  A related link said that it was a Bellingham Birney.  With the restaurant's pending closure, I wonder what will happen to it?  Enjoyed your story about your wife and the trolley suspension at the Tacoma location. Definitely not the place to order Jello for dessert .

Tomlinson Run Railroad

Scale Rail, your Fog City photos are really inviting! It looks like a really fun place.  This diner is what diner fans call an "on-site" diner because it wasn't built by one of the typical diner manufacturers and then shipped to the location.  As far as diner buildings go, it's a young'un having been built in 1985.   There are a few diners serving nouvelle cuisine, which can be surprising to those who just want eggs sunny-side up any time of the day :-)

From your photos, it almost looks like it has two "looks": the funky neon lettering with the 50s-style checkerboard walls and a patio versus what looks like a more restrained side, more in the classic dining car style of maybe the forties and the switch to block lettering for the name. The placement of the side lights nearer to the sidewalk instead of the more typical location in between the windows is an interesting touch.  Someday I hope to add a post comparing external and internal lighting on these rail and trolley conversions with diner buildings.  The external placement of side lights makes the buildings -- converted cars or otherwise -- look like a railcar turned inside out.

Then there's that vertical work on the roof-line.  I see the addition of vertical lines as one of the big design departures from the railcar look.  It's more down-to-earth than the sense of horizontal movement you see on a railcar.  But that's enough of my blathering about architecture; thanks for the nice photos.

TRRR

I am saddened to report that the Diner Grill in Chicago suffered a fire on Christmas Eve. The 80 year old owner says that the 70 year old diner will reopen. The diner opened before WWII, and the structure was formed of two Evanston, IL streetcars. I don't know how much of the internal structure has been damaged .

http://chicago.eater.com/2016/...d-fire-christmas-eve

http://chicago.eater.com/2013/...urger-at-diner-grill