UP 844 progress

...and the popcorn goes into the microwave...

I heard the crew of MR 261 is doing the boiler work. They are doing it to generate income and I think we can assume the UP steam crew is to busy.

And where did you hear this?  

PLEASE don't post rumors here. Post FACTS with verifiable sources. 

Ya know Rich, there is a point where too much popcorn can be hazardous to your health.

The latest Northern Lights(261)newsletter posted an article on machining the flues for the UP engine and one other steam engine.They stated they are doing the work to generate income because they can't get the 261 out on many excursion runs due to record rail traffic.Stupid economic recovery ruined my hopes for a 261 Chicago fan trip this summer.

Dan

Yeah the economy is wrecking things....

Maybe Big Yellow's Steam Program can become a new reality and/or drama series!

Gonna put butter and Spike on my popcorn......UP Steam; the mini series !

First, the "261 crew" is NOT currently in Cheyenne, let alone doing ANYTHING on 844!

Second, the entire inside of the boiler on 844 must be needle-scaled in order to remove all the crap, prior to ANY new flues & tubes (when the flues & tubes become available).

Third, The FRA mandated 15 year inspection needs to be performed, including the ultra-sound inspection.

Fourth, the inside of the tender damage must be addressed and repaired.

So no UP steam this year, or possible next year... oh boy... what a blunder.

You have no idea!

Question....back when steam operation was a normal thing, how long would it take to do this sort of work to a boiler?

Weeks. There were thousands of men working in the Cheyenne shops. They could do a complete rebuild in less then a month easy.

First let me stated that during the regular days of steam, there is NO WAY that the insides of a boiler, on a class one main line railroad, would EVER get that bad! Boilers were properly washed a MINIMUM of ever 30 days, as required by law (the ICC in those days), and much more often than that in territories with historically bad water. For example, the UP washer the boiler every 15 days, on locomotives assigned in the Nebraska Overland Route, while the Southern Pacific washed most of their boilers every 10 days. A well staffed roundhouse, with a 3 shift per day opening staff, could handle complete boiler washes in usually one shift.

Now, if your question is, how long did it take to completely reflue/retube a boiler, then that sort of work would be part of a "5 year overhaul" and would generally be performed in a "back shop" and take 5 to 10 days at the most, which would also include machinery (running gear) work. 

Whats is the process to wash a boiler? I assume its much more than stick a garden hose in it and swish it around

Funny that the conversation turned to the cleaning of the locomotive and all during its heyday.  I love this British film that was made in the 1950's, I think, and it shows the process they did at the time:

Just to clarify the point...the 261 guys PROCURED the tubes for the 844's boiler, but they are not actually doing the work to install them.

BIG difference.

OK, so "back in the day" it was a short turn around....move forward 50-60 years...with the current skill set nation wide, what is a good time estimate to accomplish the work needed? (not specifically the 844, but any boiler in a similiar condition).  How long if it was a rush job?

It's not a matter of "skill sets" as much as it is the small number of people involved in doing the work. Back in the day a gang of 30 or more men would be involved in this work. Today a steam locomotive re-tube crew might be 5 guys.

The Union Pacific program seems to have issues in play beyond the work on the locomotive itself which may slow down the work. Ed Dickens, the man in charge of the steam department, is involved in two lawsuits filed by former employees. One is an age discrimination suit filed by a former male employee and the other is a sexual harassment suit filed by a former female employee. (This is not unfounded gossip or rumors. Both suits are available in the public record.)

Ed is certainly considered innocent until proven otherwise, but these suits are sure to be a distraction which will slow the progress of the work.

Plus the current manager of the UP Steam Shop is trying to "run off" the his Boilermaker. Since the work force at Cheyenne actually has no experience in swedging nor installing flues & tubes, the 261 group has inquired if the UP wants to contract that work to the 261 crew also.

Well,  maybe not "much" more.

All the boiler washout plugs are removed; also the plugs on the firebox corners and the belly plugs. We use a power washer, and spray a jet into all the washout plugs, spaying as much areas as we can, all over. The dirty water (and often, pieces of sludge and scale) pour out the corner and belly holes. When we get clean water from all the holes, we're good to go.

Yep well count me out in being the barman or the tube sweeper, that looks to be a thankless job...  now I realized what killed the steam locomotive.... all the labor to keep them operational!

Great video and walk through thanks for posting Eddie.

Would have been neat to see what it took to replace a few stay bolts, or the pipes themselves.... obviously not fun.

Ed Dickens had acknowledged the late Ed Gerlitz as his mentor in the world or steam.  Mr. Gerlitz operated 2 foot gauge trains in a park in Colorado and Ed Dickens went to work their when he was younger.

Operating a 300 psi superheated locomotive on water from all over the country would provide much greater water treatment and boiler maintenance challenges than the operation of a lower pressure saturated steam locomotive at a fixed location with the same water every day.

The water treatment, blow down and boiler washing practices of the UP steam crew under Ed Dickens have been cited by knowledgeable steam operators as less than adequate and the cause of the need for 844s earlier than scheduled tube and flue removal and boiler inspection. 

Does anyone know what the water treatment, blow down and boiler washing practices were on the locomotives operated by Gerlitz and Dickens at Heritage Square?

Did Ed Dickens try to follow those practices with 844? 

If so, all I can say is that I think it is a good thing that 3985 hasnot been operated since Steve Lee retired.

When replacing broken staybolts, the biggest pain in the *** is where it/they are located. Lost of equipment, and jacketing & insulation must be removed in order to access the head of the particular staybolt. 

Concerning "pipes", I'm not aware that any of the pipes in the air or steam systems ever had to be replaced.

A while back I did a little research into the Santa Fe steam shops at Albuquerque NM - think I got sidetracked looking for something else. Anyway, saw lots of pictures and information posted about it. At one point in the heyday of steam, it was the largest industrial facility in the state, with many buildings in the complex and a huge number of employees. And the Santa Fe had a number of these in its system, as did other railroads. Railroading was incredibly labor-intensive in those days.

The shops were a mind-boggling operation, with huge buildings with every kind of metal working tool you can think of, huge presses, forges, etc. etc. and many hundreds of incredibly skilled machinists working at the facility. I think I read that some of these type facilities could literally build an entire locomotive in a month. Now, in many cases, it can take 5 years just to do a rebuild. 

That's the reason railroads converted over to diesel so quickly. In 1949 there were thousands of operational steam engines. By 1959 they were 99 percent retired. Many of the ones retired were practically new. The railroads were able to save in the neighborhood of 90 percent on maintenance expenses. Huge amount of money. The railroads wouldnt have survived the 60's and 70's if not for the diesel.

It was just announced today that 261 will be doing the Minneapolis to Duluth run again in September.

There are a lot of photos of the Albuquerque shops here....a truly amazing complex.  The facilities in Cheyenne were amazing as well back in the 40's-50's.

Oh, my . . . the tender too.  Poor 844 has sure been rough-handled since Steve Lee retired.

Ah, ahh, ahhh. Mr. Dickens "inherited" the 844 in this condition

what do you think would take their place? dont say trucks,since there are not enough qualified drivers,and roads in/near the big cities are maxed out now. i believe the railroads  would have made alot of other changes before giving up.but this is another topic for a another time.-jim

And THAT is the continuing line of BS that Mr. Dickens puts out about EVERY SINGLE mistake that he has made, i.e blame it on the previous crew! 

That more then anything else is making Dickens look like a moron. Steve Lee and crew kept 2 steam engines more operational then not they did it on a linted budget. Steve Lee and crew have nothing to ashamed of in fact that era is going to be hard for any future manager to beat. When it started being leaked out that 3985 was in "Bad shape" Her boiler wasnt taken care of" I knew right then the steam operation was in trouble. You dont try to make a guy (Steve Lee) who is as close to being THE major icon of his day look bad. The more Dickens dose it the worse he come off.

To be clear, the boiler on 3985 was NOT "in bad shape"! That was early BS put out by the dear leader, mainly because he didn't want anything to do with 3985.

Who of the retired steam crew did Dickhe..., I mean, Dickens, blame the 8 flat spots on 844's drivers last year???

Surprisingly, in a round about way,,,,,ME! Since I was one of the two people at EMD who developed the Diesel MU Control Box for the 4449 of the American Freedom Train fame, back in 1975. The dear leader blamed the whole episode on the MU Control Box for "allowing" the trailing diesel to "stay in throttle 6" while his buddy Ted, the Engineer at the time on 844, was trying to slow down for a service stop.

As I continue to state,,,,we are surrounded by idiots!

I know that. 3985 is a great engine with a great history. Union Pacific employees came together and made the initial restoration of it happen. That says a great deal about that particular engine. No UP employees will be volunteering there time to restore 4014.

Something to mull over....perhaps:

The Union Pacific is a publicly traded company.  I'd wager that a fair number of us own shares of UNP....which has been on a great run lately and recently split 2:1.

If enough SHAREHOLDERS (as opposed to "just" rail or steam fans) were to voice their concerns as to the shape/director of the current UP steam program, maybe someone up the food chain help return things back to the way they were before Dickens took over?

I (and my 100 shares) are at the ready.....

It is an absolute shame with what has become of the UP Steam program.  Nothing operational....lawsuits...and blaming the previous crew for everything....sad. 

Ha!  You should have seen the inside of SP #1744's boiler when it was removed from the museum in Corrinne, UT.  Wheelbarrows full of hard scale.  Removing a washout plug was like cutting a hole in the bottom of a jumbo bag of Doritos.

The perceived problem would be is who would be qualified to take over the steam program if the current team was fired or disbanded.  

I guess the question would be, Perceived by whom? There are plenty of "good managers" on the UP that actually know how to motivate their personnel plus utilize the "steam industry network" in order to gain information & direction. The UP management might also consider contracting out the whole steam operation, as NS and BNSF have done.

As I suspected, this thread has become a discussion of the UP Steam Department Manager instead of the locomotive. This subject has been beaten to death in thousands of posts here and on other internet sites.

None of us can know - FOR SURE - what is going on in the UP steam dept. Therefore almost everything posted on the subject is rumor, innuendo or opinion, not facts.

With that in mind, I'm going to close the thread now.