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I have a Norfolk & Western Warhorse that I converted to DC using a Timko can motor conversion and an ERR Cruise Commander.

The engine seems to lose speed like the cruise is not working in the middle of the curve. The layout is nothing fancy, two 30” straights and 060 curves. With my voltmeter car I am not seeing any voltage drops that would cause an issue.

I tried a second Cruise Commander and had the same results. I have tried using the large and small motor settings and have played with the nudge mode as well and can’t seem to get the same constant speed as my other converted engines. I have tried reprogramming the board to ensure it is in Cruise mode. 

At this point I am wondering if the magnatraction or the gearing is causing the inconsistency in speed. 

Does anyone have any suggestions, or seen similar issues?

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Well, if they're rubbing on the curves, that would CERTAINLY cause issues like you describe!  Shims sound like the answer.

FWIW, if there's slop in the axles, I cut a shim out of plastic bread clips, it slips right over the axle and solves the problem.  Just cut around the opening to make a circular "washer" and slip it onto the axle.

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SPFord27 posted:

Went and dug through the RC car box and found some plastic washers that I can split and shim with.

might as well regrease the gearbox too. It looks like it’s seen better days. 

I bought this engine used, who knows what if any maintenance has been done on it.

I spy a bread bag clip.....don’t let Heather’s bread go stale......or we’ll never see you again....

If it feels like the worm is trying to dig into the worm wheel when turning the motor by hand, ever so slightly loosen the motor mount screws one at a time. If this seems to relieve the “pressure” then temporarily make you some paper shims and shove them under the motor mount in front of the screws, ever so slightly raising the nose of the worm off the wheel....not too much or she’ll be a skippin’.....

The shims under the motor mount are still in place.

I put a load on it and on speed step 4 it seems to maintain. Slower than that and it slows and speeds up. Speed step 3 is barely noticeable with a load, but I was expecting this thing to creep consistently like the other engines I converted. 

The only thing I haven’t tried at this point it loosening the motor and changing the engagement of the word and drive gear. 

The drivetrain in this loco is based on a postwar 736.  I believe the gear ratio is only 8.33 to 1.  The Timko motor is small and probably makes less torque than the original slow-turning Pullmor motor did.  Search the forum for another fellow who upgraded his Berk to a Timko motor- despite his hopes, it didn't run as well as "modern" locos with better (numerically higher) gearing.

All of these Berks and northerns have the worm wheel on the last driving axle.  This is a sub-optimal design.  For best performance and the least amount of "slop" in the side rods, the worm wheel should have been on one of the middle axles.

If you must have a traditionally-sized 'J', you might be happier with the RailKing model (14:1 gear ratio)  With PS2 or ERR cruise, it will run better than the Warhorse and you could weather it yourself.  A Railking Mohawk (17:1) or a LionChief Plus Mikado (20:1) would run better still.  Ironically, the Mikado also has its worm wheel on the 4th axle.    A better mouse trap, but I guess there's always room for improvement!

Ted, that is what I was wondering, is the gearing too steep for the weight and output of the motor. It seems to perform well at higher speeds which would make sense with the gearing. I put it in 32 speed step mode just to see how it performed and it was really moving on speed step 2. To cover all bases I will check the mesh by playing with the motor mount shims, but I am starting to think it just a combination issue as much as I would like it to be a binding issue.

Does anyone know where can I find specifications on the wheel spacing? I don't think it would hurt to check for a quartering issue.  

As for having to have a traditional J, I don’t have to have one but I wanted to have this one operational and enjoyable. I have the whole weathered set along with a second set of weathered cars and just wanted to have a usable warhorse set. The AC motor was not ideal for running or enjoyable to me. It still runs slow enough as is to not make a lot of noise with the conversion, it just doesn’t ceep. I actually have a RailKing that was given to me that I converted to ERR and RS 5 out of the scale J that runs really well. The motor size between the two is quite a bit different with the MTH having a larger can motor. I use the traditional J for pulling the Christmas boxcars as they look silly behind my scale J or scale Heritage SD70ACE. 

I really appreciate everyone’s help and input on this! 

 

Last edited by SPFord27

The subject of "correct" wheel gauge has come up before.  There's no real standard for 3-rail, and for classic Lionels it varies by locomotive.  For example, the large 700-series Hudsons should be gauged on the narrow side if they're expected to run on O31 curves.  The little 2-4-2's are gauged wider so they don't "hunt" from side to side on tangent track.  I did a search, this link will take you to some recent threads on the subject:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ation.sort=ITEM_DATE

I also did a search for RJR's posts about installing a Timko motor in his 736 berk.  Same drivetrain as your Warhorse, and he had similar problems to yours.  Scroll through and read some of these threads:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ation.sort=ITEM_DATE

After watching the videos a 2nd time, your loco isn't too bad (and with a consist it would be even smoother.)  Hope you're able to improve it fully.  Good luck and thanks for sharing your project!!

Last edited by Ted S

I tried adding .007” shims under the factory shim and it made 0 difference. The only resistance I can feel is from the cam and pushrod for the smoke unit and chuff switch. With 6 scale three bay covered hoppers and a scale heritage caboose speed step 3 seems to be the threshold for consistency. There is a slight change in pace on 3 and it is steady on 4. You can hear the motor change tones as the board regulates it. Again, it’s not flying, it just won’t creep steadily. Compared to how it ran with the pullmore, it’s much more enjoyable!

I don’t know what motor it is. It’s the same size as the Legacy diesel motors. I am assuming it’s a Mubachi 325 with what looks like an additional heat sink similar to the legacy motors. He has a Timko sticker on the motor, so I can’t tell what it is. I can try pulling the Timko sticker to see if there is anything under it. I would say it’s a safe bet that it would peel the factory sticker if I tried. I might have better luck with calling him and asking. I don’t know how he does the output shaft either. I don’t know if there is a coupler in the old housing or if the motor is made with an extra long armature.

The reason I ask is there are certain motors that just don't play well with cruise.  One thing you can do is slowly rotate the motor and see if you feel a noticeable "cogging" effect when it's not connected to anything.  It needs to be disconnected from the locomotive driveline as well.  If you feel cogging, that's an indication that it is likely to have a problem with back-EMF cruise.

Here is a quick clip of the MTH I converted. I was expecting similar results out of the old warhorse. This has a cruise lite, rail sounds 5 and a fat boy speaker. It will creep like that all the way around the track. Based on the discussion above, it sounds like the gearing is numerically higher and the motor is larger. 

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If the cogging is more pronounced than other similar sized Mabuchi motors, I doubt you're going to fix this without replacing the motor.  The good news is, the Mabuchi 3.xx series motors are mostly all close to the same size and have the same shaft size and mounting hole spacing.

The MTH locomotive has much better gearing, usually around 16:1.

While the tall gear ratio might cause some issues, you should be able to get smooth operation at any speed step with the right motor.

This is really the solution that's needed:

http://www.tuveson.com/DCmotor...motor_conversion.htm

http://www.tuveson.com/GearedM...ar_reduction_kit.htm

The Flyer guys have had it for years, why don't we??  I blame RailKing.  Once that came out, it was easier to buy something new than to improve what was already there.  There's only so much these little motors can do, the gear ratio is hopeless.  30:1 or bust!!

Last edited by Ted S

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