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I ask the question because among the stuff I acquired years ago are AAR "Quiz" books from 1953 (10th ed.), and 1956 (11th ed.).  I noticed that steam and diesel images are on the cover of the '53 book, but only the diesel is shown on the '56 edition.

 

 

AAR Quiz 1953 10th ed 001

AAR Quiz 1956 11th ed 001

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  • AAR Quiz 1953 10th ed 001
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No but it certainly wasn't coming into favor. The N&W might still have been BUILDING NEW steam in 1956. Someone a bit more knowledgeable can fill that in but I think the N&W didn't go 100% diesel until 1960. 

 

Another thing to consider is that with steam going out and diesel being "cleaner, more cost effective, etc" the publisher may have wanted to promote that with focus on diesel. 

 

Of course, there was still plenty of smaller operations still using steam in 1956 and well beyond. 

Last edited by SJC

It was on life support.....but not quiet dead yet. 

 

I think the Nickel Plate still had some steam until 1959ish while the Norfolk & Western held off until 1960, possibly 1961....IIRC.

 

I think a coal-miner's strike around that time frame came into play re: the final nail in the coffin.

 

If it weren't tax season, I'd actually look up a more definitive answer.........

Something like 2500 steam locomotives were still active in 1956. RR's using steam included CNR, CPR, PRR, L&N, CB&Q, NYC, SP, D&RGW, B&O, VGN, UP, C&S, CNW, Soo Line, IC, DM&IR, GTW, NP, GN, SP&S, ATSF, FW&D, GT, B&OCT, CV, NKP, DW&P, Reading, C&O and B&M.     Oh yes, good times! But a number of RR's dropped their fires that year, PRR and NYC disappeared  in 1957 and the recession of 1958 killed off the B&O and NKP. N&W built it's last new steam locomotive in 1953.

Not to mention short lines. As late as 1967, the ET&WNC RR was running two consols between Johnson City and Elizabethton, TN. The SRR traded for two RS-3s for them and they entered excursion service as 630 and 722 with the SRR steam program.

They actually were running interchange with another steam locomotive, North American Rayon's 0-6-0 porter fireless, the last place in America where steam from two different owners worked in interchange. NAR's porter ceased to run I think in either 1990 or 91...

Last edited by p51

PRR steam of any type and all the support structure that was left for emergency use was killed in July, '59.  The 5244 's only chance at that point was being sold to Union Transportation. She was indeed the last of the last in revenue service.  N&W steam was dead even before the N&W knew it !  Plans were afoot in Philly thanks to the Penn's stock majority ownership to "increase profits" on the N&W through a variety of means....and steam didn't stand a dog's chance after April of '58.  OTOH, NYCS ran ex-P&LE 0-8-0s on the S&L in Canada til ...what..1964 ??? !  Steam was where you found it, often as not !

Originally Posted by colorado hirailer:

This is depressing to read, when I think I should have been out looking at and riding

behind some of this, and I was off on other tangents.  You think something is going to

be there forever, and, POOF!, it is gone.

I said the same thing about my youth...thought it would be there forever...

 

Jeff C

If I recall correctly (for whatever that is worth these days), I THINK there were still some 0-8-0s on the NKP switching in the yard at Conneaut in '59. 
 
A few Berks may have actually received their major service/overhauls but, unfortunately, never made it back "out".
 
I have some nice literature on this but I'm chained to my desk right now, under a pile of 1040s....
 
Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:

The recession of 1958 killed steam on the NKP. The last Berks ran in June, I think.

 

You could look at it that way.
 
Or you could say that we're lucky to be living in a time when so many restored steam engines are now running.  I've twice had the chance to ride behind NKP 765 as well as chase it in the Cuyahoga Valley.  
 
For all intents and purposes, you can now (or soon will be able to) ride behind PM 1225, SP 4449, Milw Rd 261, Sante Fe 3751, UP 844, 3985, and 4014 (sort of), N&W 611, Southern 4501, etc  
 
There are also some steam engines that ran relatively recently (NKP 759, C&O 614) that, at a minimum, are certainly salvageable, worthwhile projects.
 
Obviously, I'm leaving many out....but I think you get my point.
 
Rather than bemoan what is gone, we can be thankful for what is still here.....and that there are still people around who know how to operate, repair, and maintain them.  Some are even on this Forum......
 
 
Originally Posted by colorado hirailer:

This is depressing to read, when I think I should have been out looking at and riding

behind some of this, and I was off on other tangents.  You think something is going to

be there forever, and, POOF!, it is gone.

 

Last edited by Berkshire President

Paul Romano - Yes, the last widely acclaimed scheduled steam powered passenger trains to run on a Class 1 railroad ran on the Grand Trunk Western on March 19th, 1960. But, absolutuly unheralded, the Canadian Pacific ran  THE LAST steam powered scheduled passenger train in the United States, from Brownville Jct., ME to (infamous) Megantic, PQ, one week later. It was a mixed train. Master photorapher David Plowden rode the locomotive (2-8-2  #5175) that final day and wrote up the experience in "Classic Trains" in 2010. Paul, please forgive the addendum, just trying to expand the record for the entertainment of those who might have interest! Us steam fiends hung on every detail during that period.

         Should anyone have interest in a particular railroad and what was being run, and where, would be glad to share details.

Last edited by mark s
Originally Posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I believe that the UP Big Boys ran until 1962. Not sure about the C&O Big Boys. Steam was replaced by diesel, as it was just too costly to maintain and when diesel engines became more powerful. I guess the Strasberg RR would disagree as they still run steam for freight and passenger revenue service to this day.

The last revenue run of a Big Boy (4-8-8-4) on the Union Pacific ended on the evening of July 21, 1959, when 4015 brought a train over Sherman Hill from Laramie to Cheyenne.

 

C&O had no Big Boys. Their big engine was the H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny. They last ran in revenue service in 1956.

Last edited by Nick Chillianis
Originally Posted by Nick Chillianis:
Originally Posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I believe that the UP Big Boys ran until 1962. Not sure about the C&O Big Boys. Steam was replaced by diesel, as it was just too costly to maintain and when diesel engines became more powerful. I guess the Strasberg RR would disagree as they still run steam for freight and passenger revenue service to this day.

The last revenue run of a Big Boy (4-8-8-4) on the Union Pacific ended early on the morning of July 21, 1959. It brought a train over Sherman Hill from Laramie to Cheyenne.

 

C&O had no Big Boys. Their big engine was the H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny. They last ran in revenue service in 1956.

 I didn,t get to see steam but I gotto see some of the boxcars they pulled.Came in this world 1967 to late.We still had  wooden boxcars with steel bracing.Saw what was used to get water to steam locomotives.It was closse to the train station i monroe nc.It was final taken down sometime in the 1985-87.I wish seaboard had saved a few of there steam locomotives.Such as m1 and m2 mountain tpye even the Q class mikes.I got to see some nice pictures of them in books.I can still rember my grandmother telling me stories about all the trains.She seen when the depression and then  ww2 went down.

Which models are available of steam engines which are preserved or operational.

 

It would be cool to know that the engine you are considering is still in excursion service or at least preserved...... For example:

 

- Lionel Berkshire 765       operational

- Lionel Berkshire 1225     operational

- Lionel Big Boy 4014        operational - soon

- Lionel Big Boy 4012        preserved

 

Since we're talking  '56......Sandusky Line !  The Penn was all Diesel in the yards, Columbus and north, with a rare Hippo transfer job.  OTOH, AT&SF 5011s and PRR Big Jays, were all over the single track main up to the lake! Set up your camera at AC tower in Marion, and let her rip ! The local was even packing an H10s consolly.

Originally Posted by Nick Chillianis:
Originally Posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I believe that the UP Big Boys ran until 1962. Not sure about the C&O Big Boys. Steam was replaced by diesel, as it was just too costly to maintain and when diesel engines became more powerful. I guess the Strasberg RR would disagree as they still run steam for freight and passenger revenue service to this day.

The last revenue run of a Big Boy (4-8-8-4) on the Union Pacific ended on the evening of July 21, 1959, when 4015 brought a train over Sherman Hill from Laramie to Cheyenne.

 

 

The UP retained four Big Boys 'stored serviceable' until 1962, which may be where the confusion about that year comes from.  The 4023 and 3985 Challenger were shopped and stored in the Cheyenne roundhouse and stayed there until the early 1970's (in light of all the effort it took to reacquire and move the 4014, it's too bad the UP didn't hang on to the 4023 and keep it in covered storage).  Nick is correct about the last revenue run of a 4000 being in July 1959.

 

Many railroads kept steamers in storage for traffic rushes, when they needed extra power.  Eventually they all acquired enough diesels to meet their needs even during surges in traffic.  Steam locomotives required a considerable amount of specialized infrastructure and shop capabilities, and by the late 1950s many part vendors had exited the business.

Was steam  dead by 1956?

 

Wyhog has it about right.

 

I think that if one were to get the actual figures for each USA Class 1 RR in 1956 you'd find that probably 90% of the ton-miles that year were hauled by diesels (except perhaps for a few holdouts like N&W). And the few percent of ton-miles still regularly hauled by steam was in relatively isolated pockets. So yes, by 1956 steam was essentially dead.

 

1954 would be a good year to pick for when steam was becoming a rare thing.  By then many smaller to medium sized class 1 railroads were fully dieselized and most larger class 1s were sending steam to specific areas to make their last stands as other divisions were fully Dieselized.

 

The northern transcontinentals are a good example of where steam stood in 1954.  The Milwaukee Road ended steam operations on the entire Pacific Extension that year.  The Great Northern was donating 2-8-0s for display in local parks and sending their remaining big steam east for heavy haul iron ore service.  Even the GN's 70 mile Cascade Mountain electrification would fall to diesel economics in 1956.

 

The Northern Pacific was the one bright spot for steam fans in the Northwest in 1954.  With good heavy Mikados and supersteam Northerns, Yellowstones and Challengers combined with company owned coal mines the NP was still moving 40% of its revenue ton miles with steam power in 1954 and NP officials had no definite dieselization date in mind but thought it would not come until 1960 or later.  But unforeseen events brought about an earlier end to steam.  By 1957 farewell to steam excursions were being run in the Seattle area and in January 1958 the last steam locomotive ran in revenue service for the Northern Pacific in Duluth, Minesota.

 

What happened between 1954 and 1958?  Several have already been mentioned and the 1958 recession was very significant. One 1954 event should not be overlooked, the introduction of the GP9.  The assignment by the GN and NP of their last steam to heavy haul ore service gives a clue to why the GP9 was so important in putting the last nails in the coffin of steam. 

 

The GP9 looks very similar to the GP7.  Most rail fans know that the GP9 had a prime mover that could generate 1750 HP for traction, a 250 HP increase over the GP7.  The GP9's 567C engines also had several maintenance saving improvements over the 567B of the F3, F7 and GP7.  But perhaps more important was the improved D37 traction motor used on the GP9.  With the D37 the GP9 wasn't just the most powerful single engine EMD locomotive to date, it could perform better in low speed heavy haul service than any four axle EMD locomotive that proceeded it.  The NP, GN and roads like the N&W kept steam in heavy haul service in part because steam locomotives didn't overheat their traction motors at low speed like earlier diesels were prone to do.

 

With the GP9 EMD had a locomotive that could beat any steam locomotive ever built in cost and performance in any type of freight service.  Three GP9s could out perform any Berkshire in moving fast freight. Four GP9s could out lug and out accelerate any articulated ever built.  And they could do it with less fuel, less water, less maintenance and fewer maintenance facilities. Their simply was no economic or performance reason not to replace a steam locomotive with a GP9.

 

What's more, since so many railroads had already dieselized by 1954, diesel builders backlogs were becoming shorter.  While many railroads purchased diesels from builders other than EMD in the late 1940s or early 1950s based on delivery times there was less need to do so by the mid 1950s.  Railroads like the NP, PRR and N&W could buy the best and they did. That was bad news for Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton and Fairbanks-Morse.  They were out of the US locomotive business before the last steam locomotives dropped their fires on class 1s.

 

The NP purchased 176 GP9s.  With them in hand there was no longer a need for 200+ Mikados, Northerns, Yellowstones or Challengers .  Or B-L-H.  Or F-M.

 

Last edited by Ted Hikel
I strongly recommend Ron Zeil's book, "Twilight of Steam Locomotives" as it shows the state of steam in the US and Mexico as late as 1961. It shows the Challenger and Big Boy kept in the roundhouse mentioned earlier. Man, if they'd just left each there, 3985's restoration would have been so much easier and 4023 would have been a sinch to get running again...
 
Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:

The last non-touristy steam operation in the US ended December 3, 1980 at Northwestern Steel and Wire in Sterling, Illinois.

North American Rayon was running their 0-6-0 a full decade after that. She was bought by the plant I think in 1936 and never ran any fan trips ever in her operational life.

She's preserved today not far from the site of the plant. The plant, tracks and interchange is all gone today...

Last edited by p51

Re Ted's description of the economics of dieselization, I recall an EMD ad that said a diesel will pay for itself, through cost savings, in two years.  But, it still should be recalled, it took 3 and 4 diesels to beat a big steam locomotive.

BTW, Rudolph Diesel was thrown overboard on a transAtlantic steamship, in 1911. Prescient steam supporter?

Last edited by mark s
Originally Posted by mark s:

Re Ted's description of the economics of dieselization, I recall an EMD ad that said a diesel will pay for itself, through cost savings, in two years.  But, it still should be recalled, it took 3 and 4 diesels to beat a big steam locomotive.

BTW, Rudolph Diesel was thrown overboard on a transAtlantic steamship, in 1911. Prescient steam supporter?

Yeah, but diesels proved their cost in not having to completely rebuild locomotives every few years, far fewer shop people and crews needed as well. I'm quite sure they paid for themselves pretty fast in regard to manpower and physcial plant savings.

I always wondered why the unions didn't fight the passing of steam more than they did, for that reason.

Lee - "Manning levels" is a contractual right of management. Unions could not fight that issue. If they went on strike, perhaps the railroads would have said "bye bye"!    In 1957, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen struck the Canadian Pacific, as the CPR had made strong indications that they wanted firemen off locomotives "with no fires"! The resolution, as I recall, was that all existing firemen would be grandfathered in, keeping their employment. 100's of thousands of people/men lost their employment with the demise of the steam locomotive.

Originally Posted by p51:
Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:

The last non-touristy steam operation in the US ended December 3, 1980 at Northwestern Steel and Wire in Sterling, Illinois.

North American Rayon was running their 0-6-0 a full decade after that. She was bought by the plant I think in 1936 and never ran any fan trips ever in her operational life.

 

 

I believe the difference there is steam vs. fireless cooker.  I would suspect that critter in Elizabethton does hold the final record in the US if you expand it past a "steam locomotive" for everyday working steam, however.

Kevin

On the N&W, the last steam was dispatched from Williamson, WVa:

 

@ 7:30 AM on 5/6/60 Y6b #2190 pulled the last steam powered freight 

@ 4:00 PM on 5/6/60 0-8-0 S1a #291 made it's final yard trick. 

 

My grandfather retired from the N&W effective at midnight on 12/31/59. He refused to work for "a dang stinkin' diesel railroad!".

 

Gilly

Last edited by Gilly@N&W

- A steamer could run with any train it was able to start (hence the use of booster engines on trailing trucks and under tenders), and the boiler H.P. would keep climbing until the locomotive was using up steam as fast as the boiler could produce it. 

- The diesels could "walk" with all the H.P. pouring into the traction motors and drag a train, but couldn't "run" at speed without all the multiple units. So diesel switchers showed up a little earlier than the mainliners, but all won over on the maintenance costs.

Here's a few F units:  http://farm9.static.flickr.com...02536_01dbbc1974.jpg

 

 

 

Said it before...Back in the '30s, EMC said that the Diesel would do twice the work of steam at half the cost.   Back then probably true, but by 1956, it had to be ten times the work at one tenth the cost. The fantastic GEEP nine was just a part of the equation. Take a close look, everything you could imagine, both direct and indirect was piling up against the use of steam power ...anywhere and everywhere!  I mentioned the PRR Sandusky Line. Here was a place where big steam could likely hold it's own against Diesel competition in certain categories of performance, and yet, it wouldn't make a lick of difference in the big picture.  FWIW, even if the Big Jay could have single handedly wrestled 12K tons west bound up the Pittsburgh Div., it would not have saved PRR steam for five more minutes.  It was that cut, that dry, and that brutal ! 

Re Ted's description of the economics of dieselization, I recall an EMD ad that said a diesel will pay for itself, through cost savings, in two years.  But, it still should be recalled, it took 3 and 4 diesels to beat a big steam locomotive.

 

Mark

 

While it might have taken 3 or 4 diesels at the head end of a train to out perform one superpower steam locomotive diesels had such an advantage in availability and flexibility that the overall ration of diesel units purchased to steam locomotives replaced was much closer to 1 to1, sometimes better.

 

Diesels spent so much less time being fueled, watered, having ashes dumped, boilers washed and repaired, and so on that a three unit set could do much more work than any one Berkshire.  And that three unit set had the flexibility be broken into two units for a local while one unit switched a yard.  A railroad might have bought 30 GP9s and replaced 12 Berkshires, 12 Mikados and six 0-8-0s.

 

Last edited by Ted Hikel

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