What is your take on the used train market?

For all you who say postwar is dead, I have a hard time satisfying my thirst for it at local shows. More times than not when I attend local shows, I have yet to exhaust my budget for lack of supply and 80's prices. Too much HO, TMCC, DCS, and Legacy that is not in my market as a consumer.

Then there is going into some train stores and asking for postwar - it's just like walking into a car dealership today asking for standard* manual transmission vehicles. In my mind, it is only seems dead because it isn't as available.

For all you who claim postwar is dead, I can guarantee you all it won't be dead for as long as I live (and I'm young enough to likely by your child/grandchild) as it is and will remain a focus of mine.

*I actually had some sales people interpret standard as automatic or CVT because it is what comes as standard stock Next time I should ask if I can get 3 on the tree with vacuum assist.

My brother has been selling some my Dad's trains he left him this past year.There were Z,S,G and O scale trains.I was surprised at how much all the trains still held value.He got a lot less than my Dad paid back for the trains back in the 80s and 90s,but the trains sold for way more than I thought they would.He had the ambition to sell most of the items on Ebay,which he got decent prices for.Based on seeing my brother's selling experience,the train market is still alive,but you have to  be realistic on prices and deal with the Ebay listing and shipping effort for a good buck on used trains.  

It's funny that people expect their cars, furniture and clothes to go down in value over time or with use.  But they expect their TOY trains to go up in value endlessly.

The same can be said for any collectable. And for a long time the prices  of collectables, including trains, did go up.
The whole collector market is soft. You can read about the same concerns in many antique collector / dealer magazines. The problem is largely a lack of new blood. Younger people aren't interested in accumulating stuff. They don't have the money, space, or time to devote.
So what does soft really mean?
In my area, if you price your trains reasonably at the local shows they sell. I am almost always happy with my sales. Many of my fellow dealers price their stuff much higher, and bring the same stuff back and forth to all the shows, show after show. 
And Postwar is far from dead. I watch lots of stuff on EBay, the prices realized seem plenty high to me.

C W Burfle posted:

The same can be said for any collectable.
The whole collector market is soft. You can read about the same concerns in many antique collector / dealer magazines.

I need to sell off the Sarah Coventry jewelry my wife collected until her death in 2014, but I know if I try now what I'll get is nowhere near what she paid for it.  I might have to take the hit because I need the space if I want to enlarge my layout.

Speaking as a non professional seller of trains there are cost involved that you have to cover as a sell. If you go to the local show it is your time, gas, paying for the table and sale tax.   In my area the tax man comes to make sure you are collecting the sale tax and wants to see your certificate. Verses website which has it fees which are a percentage of the sale, listing, shipping and a fee on getting your funds. I was talking to an old timer from the LHS (who I  respect and is very knowledgeable) he was telling me stories that some the show/meets the best deals where made in the parking lot not at the show. And that is still true at some of the shows from what I have read. Long story short parking lot deal data does not get factored to what the going rate is for trains,  yes it is a smaller market but it is still there.

The whole collectible market has been soft here in western Pa. since the last depression, lots of shops and dealers left the business so it isn't just toy trains.  Like everything else it runs in cycles, too.  I was very glad to trade the antiques we had collected for post war Lionels because I got more value out of them. 

If you go to the local show it is your time, gas, paying for the table and sale tax.

I agree on having to factor in sales tax, and the cost of the table. For me time and gas aren't factors for local shows. I do set up at the shows to sell, but there is also a social aspect to the show. (and I often buy a few things too) Many of the table holders know each other, as well as some of the attendees, and the folks operating the display layouts.

For me, York is a different story. When I go to York as a non-table holder, all the expenses are just part of the hobby. Same goes for getting tables at York with a group of people, so we can take turns looking around and visiting. (selling isn't the primary purpose of attending)
If I was to go to York myself or with my wife specifically to sell trains, I'd want to cover all my expenses.

I don't think a lot of buyers take in to account the sellers expenses plus they usually do have to pay something for the item so what you pay isn't pure profit.  One reason if someone is liquidating a family collection it can go cheaper-sometimes. There could be regional differences too. There is an antique dealer who is a wholesaler and collects stuff around here and takes it down south to sell. He was telling a dealer and I that twin beds are a dog around here but  he  can sell them in Mississippi. Used cars and collectible cars are the same way.

There are still some hard to find items I am looking for, however I would rate the market saturated with items that are over priced. 

To me it goes up and down all year. Perfect example I bought a about 6 months ago I picked up a 1055 Texas special for about $30 including shipping. And it had a couple of cars with it. The other night I bettered than doubled my money just on the engine the next day I saw one for sale ending about the same time and listed about $20 less than I got and not a hit. It all depends a lot who is at the show/on auction site etc. Yard sales can be the same sometimes you can't get 2 cents for stuff other times you can get double there value to me it just how it falls I have made and I have lost on trains but to me the secondary market ( your original question ) is very much alive now is it better for the seller or the buyer depends on the day and whats going on I would say. 

I agree with Jdaddy - market is saturated and prices aren't reflecting it in most cases. 

I have a local used shop I frequent - they deal mainly in post war and tinplate - but they do get in modern equipment from time to time.  They had garages full and the shop stuffed at this time last year. They were blowing Weaver out for $10-15 a car.

This year inventory is completely depleted - everything in the store is mostly shelf filler from the year before.  I asked and they said they aren't getting inventory because they can't buy and sell at the current prices sellers /estates are asking. To combat it, they are stuffing shelves with die-cast which is booming for them - as soon as they sell it, there's 10 more people bringing it in. 

 

I think one of the problems with the used toy train market is that there is so much product to choose from that people get a little numb looking at it all.

I don't see this as a problem at all.  Bubbles burst and reality arrives.  Realistic prices on so much product is what will let many modelers get into and stay in the hobby. 

bmoran4 posted:

For all you who claim postwar is dead, I can guarantee you all it won't be dead for as long as I live (and I'm young enough to likely by your child/grandchild) as it is and will remain a focus of mine.

 Funny you should mention this. I've been running my postwar rolling stock for a few weeks now.  ( though I'll admit I am using modern engines to pull them , I like the features ) You have to admit the postwar rolling stock has stood the test of time, don't forget the 6464 series !   Are they scale ? are the realistic ? Who cares .... They are fun and that is what counts.

Speaking from my own experience, postwar was the way I entered into O scale world.  They are cheap and widely available and can be purchase at reasonable prices. As I grow older my taste chanced as did the O scale market and I like the Modern O scale items. I however will not purchase the engine that over thousands dollars sorry but I do not have that kind of disposal income. For those that do god bless and enjoy hobby at your level.  I always am on the look out for a good second hand PS-2 engine or freight cars  that will fit my collection and my budget.

Aldovar posted:

I can speak as a buyer and not a seller. I still consider ourselves getting into the hobby. We hit up the local train shows, and of course, all of the wonderful forumites I've met from purchasing on here and one or two of our LHS that have used gear. We went to the Parma show today and I spent maybe 50 bucks on some rolling stock, parts, and a few other things? My brother picked up a scout set for my nephew for 45, my dad.. well he went a bit nuts and spent like 300 on stuff.

For our needs the 5-20 range is perfect and I will usually buy it then. I don't mind if the cars are a bit dinged up or "well loved" my 3 year old is going to be helping me run the railroad. As long as they roll and are a bit serviceable that is good for us. I'd rather have PW or MPC stuff, not much to go wrong on them, especially MPC rolling stock.

I guess as a "Younger" buyer what I have to consider is this: With a 500 dollar student loan payment a month, and 800 in day care plus my wife's student loans, mortgage, etc, can I afford that 80 dollar new or used box car or will a 5-10 dollar used purchase give the same enjoyment and play value for my little boy?

The used market is the only reason I am able to share this hobby with my son. Without the amazing people on here who I've met and corresponded with while purchasing I wouldn't have much of anything. I've gotten advice, good quality used stuff, good prices, and a lot of smiles. I look at the used section every day on here and look for items that are going to work with our budget.

So, anyways, thank you to all who are selling used gear, you've got at least one person looking and thank you to all who have helped out Henry, Ollie, and I.

 

Side note, if anyone is just going to throw out old stuff, feel free to send our way, I've got two little boys who love trains. ;-)

 

I concur (as a fellow Clevelander). I just started paying tuition bills for my 3rd oldest, so Key Bank is getting a much bigger check from me each month than online store or LHS.  In large part, that's what drove me to stick with semi-scale. Even with shipping included, I've amassed a nice collection of $10-$25 gently-used Rugged Rails, Industrial Rail, and traditional Lionel and K-Line rolling stock to run with semi-scale TMCC and PW conventional engines. The used market has treated me well so far. I appreciate that O-Gauge has room for $200 engines and $2,000 engines.

Michael,

   Being a Tin Plate kind of runner with some Post War and modern mixed in, I find the good Tin Plate rolling stock and especially the well maintained engines, to be way over priced, even if there happens to be more Tin, at the show than in prior years.  Some of the older real nice 810 Crane Cars & original Lionel Red Cabooses, border on being priced not to sell.  It's almost like some of the vendors bring them as show pieces, and if they happen to sell one, at the way out of whack price, so be it.  Got to admit some of the vendors do have good prices on full P2 Train sets, NIB, if you have the money on hand to purchase the full sets.  Recently a Vendor at one of the Antique stores I like, has had some good deals on Tin Plate, and I will probably return again and purchase from him.  These are the kind of Tin Plate deals that are seldom still around however.  I also picked up a pristine 80's era conventional Coca Cola Train for real decent money in that same Antique store, I did have to haggle to get the price I wanted however.  I do like to horse trade now and then and I am pretty good at it. 

PCRR/Dave

For postwar, I'll only buy it if there is an emotional connection. For example, as a kid I had a Texas Special 1055, like those described above. It got tossed when we moved and I'd like to have it back.  If I saw one in decent shape for $20 - 30, I'd grab it. So if the piece has some meaning and the price is right, I'll buy. Every now and then it is fun to run my postwar stuff. It is a pleasant reminder of my childhood.

Otherwise, I prefer new equipment, which is nicely painted, runs more smoothly and does many more things. I can easily run 25 car trains behind Williams locomotives for as long as I'd like. Modern cars roll easily and track well through switches. Postwar cars have higher rolling resistance limiting the size of trains you can pull (and yes, I do oil the axles!).

To me from an operating standpoint, modern equipment is far superior. From an emotional standpoint, there's something wonderful about a 736 pulling a freight or a 2353 pulling an aluminum streamliner. A collector's standpoint would be entirely different.

Too much postwar on dealers' tables is dirty, rusty, with no price on it. Then you ask and wonder if you are getting the best price. Or you get the story about how rare and valuable the piece is. Who cares if the piece has chipped decals, scratches and may run poorly? For collectors, the piece should be in excellent condition to command the prices in the guides. For operators it should be clean and a good value. A clean piece with normal wear should not command the guide price for a like new piece, but many dealers seem to think it should and carry these pieces back and forth to show after show. My choice is not to buy; their choice is to hold out for the price they want, and that is what makes the world go around. As long as the choices are freely made it is all good. That's how a free market should work. The best sellers price items to sell and put money in their pockets, then hustle to gather new merchandise and repeat the process.

I like to run my trains, so the newer equipment does the job for me. But every now and then I do enjoy a nostalgic postwar night! When my son comes over, he always asks to run the postwar stuff, which was all we had when he was a child.

Buyers can be very fickle and unpredictable.  Guys will trip over themselves ordering the new (and overpriced) VisionLine GG-1 at $1190, yet I've had just one lone response thus far showing "casual interest" for an unblemished, Like-New, Lionel JLC GG-1 for $450.     Really??? 

Newsflash people... It ain't going any lower than that.    If it doesn't move at that price, it's staying on my roster.  

Selling trains here on the forum from time to time, I've seen my share of surprises relative to what moves quickly and what lingers for weeks -- or sometimes months.  I was very surprised that the Lionel 18" Santa Fe High-level Superliners took a few months to move.  They were as MINT as the day I bought them.  And you just don't see that kind of stuff hit the market very often, if ever.  Yet because I wasn't "giving them away", they sat for awhile until the right buyer came along.

Everybody, myself included, likes a great deal.  But sometimes I think sellers on the forum have "conditioned" buyers to behave a certain way.  

I prefer to post things at VERY fair prices.  And on occasion, I'll offer ONE price reduction as a "show special" as an extra incentive (if it sits for awhile).  But as a general rule I don't offer daily price reductions of $10-$25, because that only conditions buyers to expect yet another price reduction tomorrow.  And it more than likely sends a message that the seller needs cash quickly -- which may or may not be the case at all.  

More importantly, I don't think a $10-$20 price reduction is gonna make that much of a difference on a $500+ item, because if somebody were truly interested they could OFFER the seller that difference without "needing their permission".  I get offers for less-than-the-asking price all the time.  Sometimes I'll go for it if the offer keeps the deal in win-win territory.  Other times, I'll reject the offer if it falls into the win-lose category -- something I've needed to do on occasion, because I'm not in the market of giving stuff away.  

Yet there are days I honestly think buyers here are just WAITING for sellers to give stuff away.  And I guess that simply indicates to a large degree how much of a toy train glut exists out there on the market today.  

I agree with Mario's earlier post, when he said folks' eyes just glaze over after a certain point.

David

David,

    I agree with a lot of what you say, however regarding the JLC GG1 if it was TMCC, I would purchase her from you, I have numerous Conventional GG1's already and probably most people here on the OGR do also.  Further I think the guys purchasing the new vision line GG1's at that cost, have lost their minds completely.  Each individual has his own ideas at to what he most wants to own however and if this new high cost stuff makes them happy, so be it.  Me I have some fine L C Smith double guns that I treasure as much as my O Gauge Trains, so I try to keep the addiction on some what of a reasonable cost entity.

PCRR/Dave  

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

David,

    I agree with a lot of what you say, however regarding the JLC GG1 if it was TMCC, I would purchase her from you, I have numerous Conventional GG1's already and probably most people here on the OGR do also.  ...

Dave, the Lionel JLC GG-1's are equipped with TMCC.  They were produced in the 2007/2008 timeframe, and catalog'd with an $899 MSRP.  I will update my listing, so folks are aware of this subtlety.

David