Williams and Weaver RS-3 cabs interchagable?

A while back I purchased a beautiful a Weaver Lehigh Valley RS-3 engine but I cannot run it on my layout as some curves are slightly less than the 042 that the Weaver needs to function properly on. I have read that the Williams RS-3 cabs are being made using the old Weaver RS-3 tooling.  I am wondering if the Weaver RS-3 Cab (even with slight mods) can bolt on to a Williams RS-3 frame.  Does anyone have an idea?

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Original Post
Dennis LaGrua posted:

A while back I purchased a beautiful a Weaver Lehigh Valley RS-3 engine but I cannot run it on my layout as some curves are slightly less than the 042 that the Weaver needs to function properly on. I have read that the Williams RS-3 cabs are being made using the old Weaver RS-3 tooling.  I am wondering if the Weaver RS-3 Cab (even with slight mods) can bolt on to a Williams RS-3 frame.  Does anyone have an idea?

Dennis, that’s a very interesting question.  It’s been my understanding that the WBB RS3’s are being produced from the former K-Line RS3 tooling.  And it’s also my understanding that Lionel ended up with the Weaver RS3 tooling when Weaver sold everything off.  However, this information was just what I heard, not necessarily fact!  It would be great to get some definitive clarification from someone truly “in the know”!

Joe A.

Enjoying this Great Hobby in memory of Dad & Pop...the "original Joe's" responsible for my interest in trains!!

I put in a call to Larry Harrington for your answer.  When he calls me back, I should have your answers.

 

Marty

 

 

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Larry just called me back and the WBB shell is the former K-Line.  The info from Joe was correct.  Thanks Joe.  I picked up one of the WBB in CN and plan to do a DCS upgrade when I get caught up.  I have always been an RS-3 fan and have a few.

 

 

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Before you get into shell-swapping, and I do not know what version of the Weaver RS-3 that you have, but can you determine exactly what in the running gear (and perhaps interior motor movement interference and/or wiring) is causing whatever problem that you have, then do a bit of careful modification (filing, etc.)?

I'm just winging it; you may have already investigated this.

A brand-to-brand body swap can be pretty easy...

Or not.

Good point D500.  Remember guys/gals Weaver made an RS-3 with the chain drive early on.  That was nasty as could be.

 

 

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prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Now what was so "nasty" about the chain drive that the 2 railers love?

Nothing; just more mythology.....  I keep hearing about cracked gears/sprockets, but I've never had it happen.

Good reliable basic drive that I and many others routinely use that sprockets and chain are readily available for so you can tailor the drive to be nice and slow.


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An Optimist sees light at the end of the tunnel

A Realist sees a freight train

The Train engineer sees 3 idiots standing on the rails

 

I only have 1 Weaver engine, the RS3 shown.  Haven't seen any cracked gears yet and it glides pretty well, I kinda like the chain drive.  The only issue I see with the engine is it's fairly lightweight, but hasn't posed a problem so far and is easy to lift and place, unlike my 14lb Williams brass 4-8-4, takes 2 hands!!!

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I am happy 2 rail guys like that.  I have had many come to me and I have not seen many that I like.      MWB, I have seen every problem mentioned.   That could be because I repair trains and get to see a few locomotives in a year.   No mythology, a real deal.  You are a lucky man yours have been running good.  How many do you have?

I am a huge fan of the  superior models with dual vertical can motors and operating smoke unit.  The operating couplers  on my models are great as is the sound systems.   DCS and TMCC are great  I love operating these locomotives with the remote and phone.

We all have choices and should enjoy whatever you run.  Some people like to drive a Ford and some like to drive a Toyota.  Enjoy what you have and have fun.

 

 

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Hybrids rule!!   Funny this thread came up because I was just planning on replacing the shell on my MTH RS3 with a Weaver one.  The MTH shell is much sturdier but unfortunately has that flat face that doesn't do it justice.  Just found out though that the Weaver shell is just a bit too narrow and I don't want to jam it against the PS3 board components.

I'd really like to find a home for this RS3 shell.  It looks like it's almost the same length as a Williams GP-9.  If the GP-9 railings line up with the RS-3 cab, it would be easy to drill out a screw hole on each end of the shell to mount it.  One can motor would have to go as it would be too tall for the short hood.

 

 

 

[Service, comfort and style for all passenger silhouettes]

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Larry just called me back and the WBB shell is the former K-Line.  The info from Joe was correct.  Thanks Joe.  I picked up one of the WBB in CN and plan to do a DCS upgrade when I get caught up.  I have always been an RS-3 fan and have a few.

Marty, thank for clarifying!  I’m very interested in seeing your DCS-upgraded WBB RS3 when you get finished with it. I really like MTH’s ALCo sound set.  It would be great if you could post a video of it here on the Forum!

Joe A.

Enjoying this Great Hobby in memory of Dad & Pop...the "original Joe's" responsible for my interest in trains!!

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Good point D500.  Remember guys/gals Weaver made an RS-3 with the chain drive early on.  That was nasty as could be.

Thanks for all the good info.  My Weaver RS-3 does have the chain drive and unless you are running 072 or higher radius curves it's a poor O gauge drive system.  Each truck uses only one roller pickup, IMO, a bad design.  .While this engine is not conducive to running on my layout the Lehigh Valley paint scheme on the cab is really nice. The Weaver RS-3 body mold had to end up somewhere and my best guess is that the newer Lionel RS-3's may use a modified version of it. I measured up my K-Line RS-3 and compared it to the Weaver.  The differences are extremely small and both mount with screws from below the frame.  I am sure that a cab swap can be done with some mods . It just comes down to choosing the closest match for the frame,

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I believe there are two versions of the chain drive engines. I have the early version with the single tower and driveshaft underneath. I am with Marty as this one is a real dog. Cracked gears and a motor that overheats in 5 minutes running light. 3 freight cars and the wheels slip.

I am told its the most accurate RS3 though for is prototypical dimensions. All the rest are over width to accommodate the motors. If I keep it, it will just be an ornament next to the engine house.

 

Pete

Joe, when I catch up, I will post that.  It will be after the holidays.

 

Marty

 

 

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Below are a photo comparision of the WBB [Formerly K-line] Rs3 vs. The 2003-2004 Weaver Rs3 w/Dual motors:

Weaver_vs_Wbb01Weaver_vs_Wbb02Weaver_vs_Wbb03Weaver_vs_Wbb04Weaver_vs_Wbb05Weaver_vs_Wbb06Weaver_vs_Wbb07Weaver_vs_Wbb08Weaver_vs_Wbb09Weaver_vs_Wbb10Weaver_vs_Wbb11Weaver_vs_Wbb12Weaver_vs_Wbb13Weaver_vs_Wbb14Weaver_vs_Wbb15Weaver_vs_Wbb16

For Diesel detailers/ bashers, one this is for sure, the Weaver models are easier to take apart than the WBB models and if you want to model the "long tank" RS3 version, the Weaver models fuel tank is easier to cut while preserving the interior tank speaker mounts for sound.

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CNJ #1601 posted:
Dennis LaGrua posted:

A while back I purchased a beautiful a Weaver Lehigh Valley RS-3 engine but I cannot run it on my layout as some curves are slightly less than the 042 that the Weaver needs to function properly on. I have read that the Williams RS-3 cabs are being made using the old Weaver RS-3 tooling.  I am wondering if the Weaver RS-3 Cab (even with slight mods) can bolt on to a Williams RS-3 frame.  Does anyone have an idea?

Dennis, that’s a very interesting question.  It’s been my understanding that the WBB RS3’s are being produced from the former K-Line RS3 tooling.  And it’s also my understanding that Lionel ended up with the Weaver RS3 tooling when Weaver sold everything off.  However, this information was just what I heard, not necessarily fact!  It would be great to get some definitive clarification from someone truly “in the know”!

Lionel only got the U.S.-made Weaver freight cars, which they are using for their LionScale line. Atlas ended up with the Weaver diesel tooling and everything else from China.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...eaver-tooling?page=1

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ale-freight-car-sets

And remember, Kader (Bachmann’s parent company) has control of most of the ex-K-Line tooling. Maury Klein settled his debt by selling his tooling to Sanda Kan, and Sanda Kan was subsequently purchased by Kader, which then booted a large number of Sanda Kan’s American manufacturing partners out the door.

 

Jim R. 

Jim R: from your link;

Tooling acquired in the agreement includes the 2-8-0, U25B, RS11 and VO-1000 locomotives, the Troop Sleeper and
Kitchen Cars, the Pullman Bradley Coaches, the War Emergency Gondola, the Wagontop Box Car; and the H30 Covered Hopper.
In addition, the molds for the 20’ Containers and telephone poles have also been obtained.

NO Weaver RS3's are on that list. I believe the RS3 and the GP38 were of USA tooling which Lionel obtained [and makes sense since Atlas O has an RS3/ RSD4 diesel already]

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Jim R. posted:

Lionel has had its own RS3 tooling even longer than Atlas. And Williams by Bachmann is producing an RS3. Why do you think the Lionel RS3 is from Weaver tooling?

Jim,

I don't think Lionel has used Weaver RS3 tooling, but it is suggested they happen to have purchased the tooling when they purchased the Weaver freight car tooling.

Furthermore, the Lionel RS3 is not a scale model... semi-scale at best but even that is being too generous. I have an older issue of the Lionel RS3, it is nice for Kids starter sets but that's about it. I think Lionel would benefit greatly from an American made scale RS3 in their line up if they can work into it. Is my understanding correct that the Weaver RS3 is considered a scale model?

If I reject reality and substitute 3-Rail, how does Narrow Gauge come into all of this?

No. Lionel has yet to make any upscale version of the RS3. The only RS3's were all traditional- originally with a metal base, stamped steel rails , correct fuel tank/battery box and can motors in plastic trucks. Later Lionel cheapened the frame to plastic with a molded in incorrect EMD GP7/9 type  fuel tank that exists today. Same with the GP38!

As stated above, if Lionel purchased the Weaver models RS3 & the GP38 it would benefit them immensely and all they have to do is tweek the tooling to allow separate grab irons, lift rings and add the Legacy electronics! Possibly the Kinekematic pilots too!

 

 

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prrhorseshoecurve posted:

No. Lionel has yet to make any upscale version of the RS3. The only RS3's were all traditional- originally with a metal base, stamped steel rails , correct fuel tank/battery box and can motors in plastic trucks. Later Lionel cheapened the frame to plastic with a molded in incorrect EMD GP7/9 type  fuel tank that exists today. Same with the GP38!

As stated above, if Lionel purchased the Weaver models RS3 & the GP38 it would benefit them immensely and all they have to do is tweek the tooling to allow separate grab irons, lift rings and add the Legacy electronics!

+1 on those comments, prrhorshoecurve!  Assuming Lionel does in fact own the former-Weaver tooling, I’m holding out hope for just what you described...a scale-sized RS3 with plenty of added-on (not molded-in) details, command control, and a robust, accurate ALCo prime mover sound file!  Sign me up right now for several of them!

Joe A.

Enjoying this Great Hobby in memory of Dad & Pop...the "original Joe's" responsible for my interest in trains!!

Jim is correct.  Lionel introduced the RS-3 many years ago with the truck mounted motors.  I remember Santa Fe and Soo Line.

 

 

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prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Below are a photo comparision of the WBB [Formerly K-line] Rs3 vs. The 2003-2004 Weaver Rs3 w/Dual motors:

Weaver_vs_Wbb01Weaver_vs_Wbb02Weaver_vs_Wbb03Weaver_vs_Wbb04Weaver_vs_Wbb05Weaver_vs_Wbb06Weaver_vs_Wbb07Weaver_vs_Wbb08Weaver_vs_Wbb09Weaver_vs_Wbb10Weaver_vs_Wbb11Weaver_vs_Wbb12Weaver_vs_Wbb13Weaver_vs_Wbb14Weaver_vs_Wbb15Weaver_vs_Wbb16

For Diesel detailers/ bashers, one this is for sure, the Weaver models are easier to take apart than the WBB models and if you want to model the "long tank" RS3 version, the Weaver models fuel tank is easier to cut while preserving the interior tank speaker mounts for sound.

Wondering if you could make a photo of the trucks for both locos with the bottom of each against one another so we can see the length of the trucks.  Locos on their sides and trucks almost touching one another.  Close up,  just showing one truck sideframe on each loco.  Guess what I am wondering is WBB using the same funky truck they use on the Alco FA and the Sharknose.  The wheelbase of those trucks is too short.  Hope they are not using them on the RS3. The Weaver sideframes on both of their RS3s, chain drive and vertical drive, are quite accurate.  J

Prrhorshoecurve,

The RS3 I was referring to is part of this set:

http://www.lionel.com/products...00-dmy-8501-6-30145/

I see they gave it smoke,  Trainsounds, and die-cast metal trucks but I guess it still has the truck mounted motors, correct?   Ad says "dual powerful maintenance free motors" whereas the other RS3 ads leave out the word "powerful".

[Service, comfort and style for all passenger silhouettes]

351 DD1 If you look closely at the linked picture of the CP set, you can see the fuel tanks are incorrect and the handrails are stamped metal.

 

 

Those CP RS3's are not signature series calibur but a glorified traditional RS3 with a fancier paint scheme.

For those who purchased the set should speak up now and verify the Lionel picture is what you get in that set.

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The existing Lionel RS-3 is definitely intended for the toy train world, but it is scale length, not traditional.

The Weaver RS-3 was definitely a scale model, but not a very robust frame. It would be interesting to see if Lionel ever uses it, but I still don’t know where this information is that says Lionel bought the tooling for Weaver’s GP38 and RS-3. I know Lionel bought the tooling for some of the freight cars and Atlas bought some locomotive and rolling stock tooling because I read press releases on those in 2015 and 2016.

Jim R. 

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

351 DD1 If you look closely at the linked picture of the CP set, you can see the fuel tanks are incorrect and the handrails are stamped metal.

 

 Those CP RS3's are not signature series calibur but a glorified traditional RS3 with a fancier paint scheme.

 

And did anyone notice this CP RS3 rolls on EMD Blomberg trucks?  

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

The 2003-2004 Weaver Rs3 w/Dual motors:

Weaver_vs_Wbb02

For Diesel detailers/ bashers, one this is for sure, the Weaver models are easier to take apart than the WBB models and if you want to model the "long tank" RS3 version, the Weaver models fuel tank is easier to cut while preserving the interior tank speaker mounts for sound.

All RS3's came from Alco with AAR B-trucks - refer to the above picture of the Weaver RS3 in PRR to compare.

Would someone be so kind as to place a Weaver RS3 side by side to a Williams GP9?  I want to see how the GP9 railings line up with the cab of the RS3.   I'm looking for a way to use my Weaver shell even if it means making it less prototypical.

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