Wire a new 5 by 12 layout

Hi Rick,

I apologize that I am not offering wiring advice.   Yet, in looking at your layout, it looks as if maybe the rate of climb in your tracks may be a little too steep.     My understanding is that a 4% grade is about all that most strong O Gauge engines can handle, without spinning or stalling out, and that often a 3% grade is what is recommended.    I think that that works out to be only about 1/3 inch of rise for every 10 inches  of track.   So, for a 10 foot run of track, that would only give you about 3.60 inches of rise.

Perhaps it is an optical illusion created by your photo, but you may want to check the grade of your track before you start wiring.   If your grade is correct, then that is great.  Just trying to head off a problem for you if have one.

Best,

Mannyrock

I will check it out it’s a work in progress thank for your suggestion

If you could post a few more pictures so we can get a better look at the track plan.  I can't tell if you have a siding and if there are any areas that you want to be able to block power.  Also, do you  want to operate more than one train. 

Generally, you will want to have feeder wires every for to six feet. 

The nice thing about fastrack, is that magnatraction will work on those steel rails. 

In conventional operation,  Lionel suggested having lower voltage on the downgrade.  Please refer to the attached manual, there is a section on graded layouts.  You can create issolated rails in fastrack to operate crossing gates, and do other wonderful things. 

Also, wondering if you have a transformer.  hope this helps.

I noticed that you are using "standard" Lionel trestle sets for you grade and raised loop, so you should not have much, if any, elevation change issues other than power control with older engines.

However, I do have two concerns.  First, in the upper left-hand corner of your pictured layout, where the grade starts, those 2 curves look awful close together and anything with "overhang" passing on those 2 tracks might cause a "sideswipe" or derail issue.  Only way to fix, if this is a problem, would be to widen the table about a foot to separate those curves further.

Second, I notice that your raised upper level on the right side of your photo is supported by several trestle bents that have been turned sideways.  While those bents don't have to be totally perpendicular to the track they support, I'm thinking that zero degrees of perpendicularity is a recipe for track collapse disaster.  I would suggest building custom bents with a base thick enough to fit easily between the tracks which would then be "crossed" at the top with another thin but strong piece that spans the edges of the track.

Chuck

Rick- track plan is a nice start. You can run 2 trains with reverse loop on the inside.

What is your plan for control? Do you have a conventional transformer like a ZW? I see a Lionchief (LC) remote in the picture so I assume that's for the new engine. If you are running LC (command) and conventional together then you want to run separate power to each loop. The center rails of the crossover switches should be isolated. There is a isolating track section available, can't tell from the pic if you are using them. If not you can remove the center pin from the track.
Power drops should be placed every 6' or so. Fastrack has terminals on the bottom that make it easy. Drop power and common wires down below the layout and connect them to a main buss loop for each track. Your main buss loops should be 14 ga. wire and the drops 16 ga. You can use Wago lever-lock connectors to make the splices.

I agree with Chuck that you should widen the table a bit to get more space between the loops. It looks like you have a bit of a kink in the lower reversing loop at the switch that you may want to try and fix. The upper level supports should be under every track joint too. The upper loop shown at the bottom of the picture will give you fits if not supported. Also the upper loop at the far end will need more support or a train will take a dive.
The stock grade of the trestle kits is OK for most trains to navigate but it is a little steep.
Check your clearance from the top of the rail to the underside of the upper loop. Some taller equipment won't clear anything less that 6".

Keep us posted as you progress.

Bob

Hoping this is a preliminary set up as to me, on the upper reversing loop, you have a lot of wide open spaces under the tracks, and that one part that is partially  over, and almost parallel with,  a lower section, may be an issue supporting since there is no room on the table because of the lower track location, for a normal support.  Might need one in the shape of an inverted 'L'.  If wiring in block style , I see an outer loop, inner loop, the rise from the far turnout to the upper loop as 3 blocks.  It gets complicated if you want more than one train within those 3 blocks, if you want to have two trains on one particular stretch of track, such as one on the loop of the upper loop waiting,  and one going down grade, make the upper loop a block.  The lower loop is  a bit of a puzzle to me as you actually have 2 reversing loops there, and that set of turnouts to get you from either direction on big outer lower loop.  Not sure if the flexibility of having that inner track with the siding as selectable would help any or just make a bigger wiring issue.  If you break the lower loop into two reversing sections, you would have to dedicate that center track to one or the other or go to the trouble of making it hot for a particular loop you were using.  The double turnout access to the outer loop is an issue too, as if they are hot to the near loop and a train is exiting from a CCW direction onto the loop, that makes the other loop have to be hot to the turnouts too. so even there, they might have to have a way to cut them off and hook to one loop track or the other.  Guess that is the beauty of having digital control,  don't really need blocks, everything is wired together and hot all the time.

I strongly second the advice about checking the distance between the two track curves. 

When I finally finished my initial layout, including gluing and screwing everything down, I found that there was one tiny spot where two curve pieces were too close to each other, by about a half an inch.   When running my large engines, it was no problem if they were running side by side in the same direction around those curves, but when they ran in opposite directions, the front edges of the engines would clink together and derail if they hit those curves at the same time.

Nothing I could do about it.  So, it is just one trouble spot in the layout where I have to be careful what I am running and in what direction.

So, before you start gluing and screwing, check and adjust those curves.   You may not have to add an extra foot to the width of the table, and perhaps something as small as an extra 4 inches of width may do the trick.  Test now, not when it is too late. :-)

You don't have to wire it up to test this.  Hand place your biggest engines and slowly hand- push them around the curves.

Mannyrock

i want to thank everyone for there input. it is much appreciated and will take me a little time to digest all the information.  i will also try to answer everyone questions .

i am new to trains so right now i have only lionel o gauge  i do have some conventional transformers two from lionelchief sets. i bought a CW 80 that just indicates i have a short.

so i two basic lionelchief engines. i just purchased a legacy atlantic steam engine (talk about putting cart before horse} so my thoughts are to run the legacy command system. i rearly am confused about that i was hoping to run legacy and lionelchief plus going forward

yes the goal is to run at least two trains at a time    

i also have older transformesr one from the 80s and one from 90s at this point i don't trust these older transformers

thanks again to all

rick

I think the first priority it to figure out where your short is coming from.  Do you have multiple feeds to your track?  So, the first step would be to unhook them one at a time to see if the short goes away.  Also, the switches can have problems as well as the track itself.   Below are two threads regarding the topic.

060 Switch (6-12068) loses power to rails. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Addressing Fastrack Poor Electrical Connection | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Basically, issolate sections of your layout and start testing each section.   You can use a lighted caboose to see if all of the track within a section works and check those tabs.

Keep us posted.  Include pictures if you can. 

Rick- 80's and 90's is not old for transformers. Tons of post war transformers still in use. I'm not a big fan of the older CW-80's. It's short comings are well documented on the forum. I bought one when I got back into the hobby and it's relegated to bench power now.
For powering 2 tracks with the option of conventional (variable) or command (fixed) voltage a good Lionel NW or ZW would fit the bill. Newer models are also available from MTH and Lionel. Another option would be to get a pair of MTH Z-1000's.
Any older power should be inspected and old power cords replaced. Fast-acting breakers should be installed in-line with the power to the track to help prevent a short from frying a command-equipped engine. Also lot's of threads on here about the subject.
The new LC/ Legacy engines will run on the LionChief app or via the supplied remote. Lionel's new Base 3 system should be released later this year and it will use a smartphone app to control your trains (no physical remote) Older Base/ Cab-1L systems will still run Lionel command engines, and the 1L remote will work with the new Base 3. An upgrade would be the Legacy 990 base and Cab-2. Since neither are still in production, they are pricey when they come up on the used market.
MTH has no DCS systems in production at the moment but since you don't have any MTH engines it can wait.

Spend some time researching the issues here on the Forum. A wealth of info is a search away.

But for now- get the basic wiring done and start testing the tracks.

Bob

There is a lot of good advice and I’m not going to offer any electrical insights.    
I would suggest that as you run wire that you label everything and keep it neat as you go. It makes troubleshooting easier. Develop a schematic too and at least pencil in changes as they are made.

Jay

A few of the members asked for more pictures.

I think I am going with fix the electrical problem first so I have research. I will keep you posted

I'm no expert, but I did wire a 17x15 layout 2 years ago with all the advice from the smart folks on here.  They know what they talk about.  The lever locks are great for splicing and connecting feeder wires.   I bought an off brand off amazon and they work great.  The every 6 feet (max) apart for feeders, 14 ga bus, 16 ga feeder is all solid advice.   COLOR code for wire and write it all down.  You will forget.  DON'T get cheap and run out of one color and sub in another.  You'll forget or lose track and later when there is an issue, and there always is, it will drive you insane.  20 or 22 ga for the switches and 14volt stuff is fine.  But color code everything and write it down.  This cannot be stressed enough.   Stay organized.   Have fun, it's not a race.    

Hi Rick, thanks for posting the pictures of the layout.

Just posting a reply, so your thread stays current.

In one of the pictures,  you have a piece of track that is not completly connected, so that may be an issue on connectivity.     

Looks like you are using  a lionel track that has the connection for plugging in the wires to power the track.  In the thread below,  there is a discussion about making your own lockon. 

Make your own FasTrack Lock-ons! | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

GunrunnerJohn makes a good suggestion on making you own connectors: "one can get the connectors at Digikey as well: AMP 62474-1 , no need to disassemble your jumper track sections.

THis should help you add more power drops to your layout.

Best, Dave

Thank you I will check it out

Lionel locos with Magnatraction will help that loco when climbing a grade.  I relied on that old-time technology to help a loco climb an ascending grade on my annual holiday layout. IMHO, traction tires on locos are not as helpful. At the zenith of the upper level and at its lower point, I installed center rail track pins; i wired that block to an in-phase transformer set to a lower voltage during its descent. Simple, but it worked great.

Years later, I ran locos around the holiday layout with TMCC, and I could control ascending and descending speed via the CAB-1; but I had to pay close attention.  I was too easily distracted by conversations with visitors. After one holiday season, I reactivated the previous method and reverted to Magnatraction-equipped locos on the upper level (only).

I "second the motion" about color coding.

Carry on ...

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394