WMSR / C&O 1309 passes FRA hydro test!

Hot Water posted:

Yes, nice. However, the FRA boiler clock has long begun running, ever since the last tube/flue was installed. So,,,,,,,,,how many years and $$$$ before all the running gear is completed?

Would it be better if the boiler had failed the test? My suspicion is that it would not be better. So perhaps it is best to take the good news for what it is, and see how things play out from here.

Jeff C

leikec posted:
Hot Water posted:

Yes, nice. However, the FRA boiler clock has long begun running, ever since the last tube/flue was installed. So,,,,,,,,,how many years and $$$$ before all the running gear is completed?

Would it be better if the boiler had failed the test?

No, not at all. My point is, when it cones to steam locomotive restorations/overhauls, most groups/organizations always seem to start on, and finish the boiler first. Then, after the boiler has past its FRA Form 4, work is started in the running gear. Thus, while extensive work is progressing on the running gear machinery, the boiler is just sitting there with the FRA 15 year clock running, without even making steam!

My suspicion is that it would not be better.

You don't seem to understand.

So perhaps it is best to take the good news for what it is, and see how things play out from here.

Jeff C

 

Hot Water posted:

Yes, nice. However, the FRA boiler clock has long begun running, ever since the last tube/flue was installed. So,,,,,,,,,how many years and $$$$ before all the running gear is completed?

§ 230.17   One thousand four hundred seventy-two (1472) service day inspection.

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(a) General. Before any steam locomotive is initially put in service or brought out of retirement, and after every 1472 service days or 15 years, whichever is earlier, an individual competent to conduct the inspection shall inspect the entire boiler. In the case of a new locomotive or a locomotive being brought out of retirement, the initial 15 year period shall begin on the day that the locomotive is placed in service or 365 calendar days after the first flue tube is installed in the locomotive, whichever comes first.

You have a year to finish the engine before flue time starts, beginning from the time you install the first flue. Hydro test has nothing to do with it.

Hot Water posted:

Yes, nice. However, the FRA boiler clock has long begun running, ever since the last tube/flue was installed. So,,,,,,,,,how many years and $$$$ before all the running gear is completed?

Agreed.  Max time on the locomotive as a whole would be best served by getting everything else possible done first.  The clock as you noted is related to the flues and nothing else. Having the boiler work complete and then waiting on other work does nothing more than shorten the availability between major overhauls.

May God Bless us all.

leikec posted:
Hot Water posted:

Yes, nice. However, the FRA boiler clock has long begun running, ever since the last tube/flue was installed. So,,,,,,,,,how many years and $$$$ before all the running gear is completed?

Would it be better if the boiler had failed the test? My suspicion is that it would not be better. So perhaps it is best to take the good news for what it is, and see how things play out from here.

Jeff C

Turns out that this boiler was in fine shape when the loco was retired (ran for a very short time), so they were working with something pretty good. Unlike the K4, which was really tired and worn when they restored it, and it's been almost 30 years trying to get it fixed. New boiler is the latest remedy - and that is the correct answer for that engine.

These guys had a very ambitious schedule for rebuilding this engine, my hat's off to them. They will get it done if $ are available.

Jim

Jim Waterman

 

Hot Water posted:

Yes, nice. However, the FRA boiler clock has long begun running, ever since the last tube/flue was installed. So,,,,,,,,,how many years and $$$$ before all the running gear is completed?

Valid point. Hopefully when all is said and done they get a good ten years of available legal service time out of the locomotive. 

Jim Waterman posted:
leikec posted:
Hot Water posted:

Yes, nice. However, the FRA boiler clock has long begun running, ever since the last tube/flue was installed. So,,,,,,,,,how many years and $$$$ before all the running gear is completed?

Would it be better if the boiler had failed the test? My suspicion is that it would not be better. So perhaps it is best to take the good news for what it is, and see how things play out from here.

Jeff C

Turns out that this boiler was in fine shape when the loco was retired (ran for a very short time), so they were working with something pretty good.

Sure don't know where you heard THAT information! Lots of work had to be done in the firebox, including replacing part of the door sheet and some side-sheet & corner work.

Unlike the K4, which was really tired and worn when they restored it, and it's been almost 30 years trying to get it fixed. New boiler is the latest remedy - and that is the correct answer for that engine.

These guys had a very ambitious schedule for rebuilding this engine, my hat's off to them. They will get it done if $ are available.

In fact, the original WMSR steam crew were all let go, and an outside contractor has now been doing the work, i.e. Diversified Rail Services.

Jim

 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

1472?  Why that and not 1500 days?


-------------------------------------------------------
> How did the FRA / Congress come up with 1472 "fire
> days" for a boiler and tubes? Why not 1471? Why
> not 1500? Seems like an odd number to me.

The number was actually set by the steam operators advising the FRA (people like Steve Lee and Linn Moedinger, among others).

It's essentially four years of daily service, similar to previous boiler regs. Generally speaking, when steam locomotives were used in regular service, railroads based maintenance cycles on miles, not months, and maintenance standards exceeded the ICC regs. It would have been unusual for a locomotive on a Class One to go 48 months (the maximum interval the ICC allowed between boiler inspections) without a flue replacement.

The thought process behind the 1999 rules is thoroughly documented in the original PDF of the rules:

http://www.steamcentral.com/documents/49cfr230.pdf

The rules were driven by those working in the industry, who actually pushed the FRA to adopt them.

3. 31 and 92 Service Day Inspections
This rule also establishes 31 and 92 service day inspection requirements. These are roughly comparable to the monthly 
and trimonthly inspections in the 1978 standards.

92 'quarterly' service days * 16 'quarterly' inspection periods = 1472 service days. The '1978 standards' are essentially the rules from the steam era, with a few tweaks.

4. Annual Inspections
In addition, this rule establishes annual inspection requirements similar to the 1978 standards: requiring that a steam locomotive 
be inspected after 368 calendar days have elapsed since the time of the prior annual inspection. The 1978 standards required that 
certain items be inspected at least ‘‘once every 12 months.’’ The revised annual inspection, as do all the other periodic inspections, 
incorporates the inspection requirements of those inspections required to be conducted more frequently. Thus, locomotives that are not 
operated often enough to accrue either 31 or 92 service days in a 368 day period will have those inspections conducted, at a minimum, 
once every 368 calendar days.


5. 1472 Service Day Inspection
Finally, the 1978 standards required that a steam locomotive boiler be inspected, at a minimum, once each 5 calendar years 
(boiler interior to be inspected after 48 calendar months, within 5 consecutive years; and the boiler exterior to be inspected 
every 5 years, or, if the locomotive is out of service for at least one full month during that time, after 60 calendar months within 6 
consecutive years).  This inspection was a major one, requiring the removal of the jacket and lagging to conduct the exterior inspection, 
and the removal of all flues in the locomotive boiler to conduct a ‘‘minute’’ inspection of the interior of the boiler.
Dominic Mazoch posted:

Now we might have a race!  Who will steam first: 1309 or 4014?  Bets, please!

That's like betting on a race between a 1 legged dachshund and a prize stallion. WMSR still has to replace all of the brasses that were ruined when they were stolen; while UP has apparently already entered the reconstruction phase. Not to mention that the UP steam crew have the full financial backing of the company behind them.

And to add to that, I believe 765 had to replace a flue when it was at Steamtown a few years ago because one cracked. I think it was only about 11 years old at that time. There's probably more stress on the flues and boiler sheets on an engine only steamed up a few times a year, over one that's lit up and under pressure 31 days at a time between boiler washes...

Now I wonder.  Did this operation do a study of past customers? Did they ask if they came just to ride a train, or to ride a train with steam?

NO I AM NOT KNOCKING STEAM BECAUSE IT IS STEAM.

If most customers want steam, go for it.  But if most customers came just for a train ride, there are plenty of diesels out there, at reduced costs for operation.

The State, if they did not, should have asked the same before giving the money.

The TEXAS SPECIAL:  The REAL RED streak of the golden prairies!

There was almost 25 years of successful steam operation between 1989-2016, there have been 4+ years with diesel operations. AFAIK, the ridership behind diesels has never matched that of the steam, except in the fall season. #734 made a lot of friends for the WMSR over 22 years, why do you think there were documentaries and TV commercials.

With diesels, this trackage is just a nice ride through the Alleghenies, with steam, it becomes a sight and sound experience for 16 miles of steep mainline grades, and brings back the days when the Western  Maryland Rwy. ran its huge 2-8-0s, 2-10-0s, 4-8-4s, and 4-6-6-4s up these grades.

The state of Maryland and Allegany County are investing in this operation in the belief that a healthy WMSR is a vital part of potential tourism spending in what is arguably the poorest section of the state.

This uncredited photo was originally posted in RYPN Interchange.

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Borden Tunnel posted:

There was almost 25 years of successful steam operation between 1989-2016, there have been 4+ years with diesel operations. AFAIK, the ridership behind diesels has never matched that of the steam, except in the fall season. #734 made a lot of friends for the WMSR over 22 years, why do you think there were documentaries and TV commercials.

With diesels, this trackage is just a nice ride through the Alleghenies, with steam, it becomes a sight and sound experience for 16 miles of steep mainline grades, and brings back the days when the Western  Maryland Rwy. ran its huge 2-8-0s, 2-10-0s, 4-8-4s, and 2-6-6-4s up these grades.

The state of Maryland and Allegany County are investing in this operation in the belief that a healthy WMSR is a vital part of potential tourism spending in what is arguably the poorest section of the state.

This uncredited photo was originally posted in RYPN Interchange.

If 1309 is up and running next summer I plan to make the the trip out and spend a weekend.  Otherwise, I can ride behind diesels anywhere.  I think that's money well spent by the town, county and state.

I know most of us here don't fall into the "average Joe American" category as far as being a tourist goes. But having an interest in steam, I used to go to the WMSR at least twice a year when 734 was running. I haven't been since it stopped and don't plan on going again until/if they run steam once more. Each trip I stayed in a hotel and ate in at least two to three restaurants. A minuscule amount of money, I know. But money that isn't going to go into the local economy any longer. As an earlier poster stated, I can see diesels anywhere. 

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