ZW Fuse Problem

Just for clarification, you added one like this (wired in appropriately):

   It sounds like you may have a bad breaker or your wiring isnt correct, or something is limiting the output to under 15a.(worn windings?)

An exact ID on the breaker would help.

If you replaced internal wire, did you account for the resistance wire needed in the breaker circuit? There is a high resistance wire, or a resistor that belongs there. Folks tend to assume it's just a normal cloth wire.

  I'd test the breaker on an extra car battery or transformer and if it's ok there, then werely go to a 12amp. The ZW might not be putting out full amperage for a number of reasons.

If you replaced internal wire, did you account for the resistance wire needed in the breaker circuit? There is a high resistance wire, or a resistor that belongs there. Folks tend to assume it's just a normal cloth wire.

ZW transformers do not have a resistance wire or resistor in the circuit breaker's primary circuit. The older ones have a resistor in the secondary circuit that runs to the red pilot light. The later models eliminated this resistor.

According to the Lionel manual, some VW transformers have a heater wire wrapped around the circuit breaker to make it break faster, but I don't see where the manual shows how it is wired. I have two VW transformers on my bench, waiting for me to get around to repairing them. I don't think either one has that heater wire.
I have not repaired enough VW transformers to write from personal experience on them.

ZW manual pages

ZW (R) manual pages

I'd be using a 10A breaker in that ZW, expecting 15A out of a PW-ZW is pretty optimistic.  The real output power is in the 220 watt range, those were rated on input power.

As pictured above, that's the one, It's written on the side  Maxi 19115-04M 12v, W49-1 15A and from 

the common tab to one tab of the light there is the resistor looking like a wire. It looks like I'll have to get

a KW 10 amp. I didn't replace any wiring at all in it because it looks good, I did replace one bracket because

the places where the screws go in were broken, replaced the rollers and cleaned it. When plugged in it's 

silent no hum at all.

The Train tender has a clear picture of the replacement breaker he sells for ZW transformers. It is a 15 amp breaker.
The transformer test chart in the Lionel model "F" test bench manual gives the trip information for a ZW as: 30 amps for 11 to 40 seconds.

How long did you short the transformer to check the tripping?
Thermal breakers, such as the ones that are being discussed here, do not trip instantly.

The high current and long trip time of the breakers inside Postwar Lionel transformers is one of the reasons I always use external breakers.
Plus there are situations where circuits can be created (either accidentally or intentionally) that do not pass through the internal breaker, and are therefore unprotected.

I am using 7 amp breakers with my post war ZW on the output sides of the A through D terminals, each terminal gets a 7 amp breaker between it and the track. My reasoning is that MTH uses a 6 amp breaker in the Z-1000 so 7 amps is plenty of power as far as I am concerned.

FYI; I have had some bad heating issues with the post war ZW so that is why I use a 7 amp breaker that trips quickly. Another point to consider is the post war ZW's 15 amp breaker is on the common side and not the hot side terminals.

Lee Fritz

C W Burfle posted:

The Train tender has a clear picture of the replacement breaker he sells for ZW transformers. It is a 15 amp breaker.
The transformer test chart in the Lionel model "F" test bench manual gives the trip information for a ZW as: 30 amps for 11 to 40 seconds.

I make no judgment on what someone sells as a replacement breaker.  I am merely suggesting that expecting more than 10 amps from the PW-ZW is pretty unrealistic, so there's no reason to have a breaker rated for more current.  As you state, thermal breakers don't trip all that quickly, I've said this many times.  With a 10A breaker, according to published specifications for typical thermal breakers, they'll operate at 135% of rated current for an hour before tripping!  I fail to see the need for any more capacity with this transformer.

I also have specifically recommended individual breakers or other circuit protection many times over the transformer's circuit breaker.   Certain transformers, like the Lionel Powerhouse 180, are good with the internal circuit protection.

   I've seen the wire (white cloth normally) and I think it was on a prewar V, maybe even a Z, with the wire wound in a coil round the round style breaker a few times like you might loop any excess.

    I only recalled it's replacement tripped slow and too much current bypassed the breaker for my taste. I attributed to the issue that after I did the rollers, the owner had used wire from an extension chord in the resistor wires place because he didn't like the high heat cloth. But he supplied a deralict unit for parts, and so I had an old one to swap in and it seemed to trip faster. He might have had too high a watt bulb in it too, 24v? Now I just like idea of resistance in the light circuits to stop a bad bulb choice from being a big current bleed.

NAPAs and maybe a few others can order a self resetting breaker. That's about as close as your going to get "common and local".

One point to make, the circuit breaker light does not light in mine.

C W Burfle posted:

The Train tender has a clear picture of the replacement breaker he sells for ZW transformers. It is a 15 amp breaker.
The transformer test chart in the Lionel model "F" test bench manual gives the trip information for a ZW as: 30 amps for 11 to 40 seconds.

How long did you short the transformer to check the tripping?
Thermal breakers, such as the ones that are being discussed here, do not trip instantly.

The high current and long trip time of the breakers inside Postwar Lionel transformers is one of the reasons I always use external breakers.
Plus there are situations where circuits can be created (either accidentally or intentionally) that do not pass through the internal breaker, and are therefore unprotected.

It didn't trip and I don't want to damaged anything. 

I took off the wire resistor and measured 63.2 ohm is this a good wire resistor reading?

It didn't trip and I don't want to damaged anything. 

If you install a 10 amp breaker, it won't trip instantly either.
But I guess it would trip faster than the 15 amp ones.
Note that the Lionel service manual says up to 40 seconds at 30 amps for an acceptable trip time.

I make no judgment on what someone sells as a replacement breaker.  I am merely suggesting that expecting more than 10 amps from the PW-ZW is pretty unrealistic, so there's no reason to have a breaker rated for more current.  As you state, thermal breakers don't trip all that quickly, I've said this many times.  With a 10A breaker, according to published specifications for typical thermal breakers, they'll operate at 135% of rated current for an hour before tripping!  I fail to see the need for any more capacity with this transformer.

Interesting point.
What would you use in a KW?

Well, since the KW is good for around 140 watts output, I'd probably use an 8 amp breaker.  Again, that will handle 10-12 amp surges for many seconds, or even minutes, so it's more than sufficient.  It'll also trip faster on a real short circuit.

Would removing the wire resistor improve anything in tripping it faster?

No, an increase in resistance there at the light would actually allow more current to be drawn across the breaker.

It's a small amount though. Basically what the bulb can carry without much heat buildup.

Even dead cold, I raise an eyebrow at over 15 seconds shorted without a trip. I think the round breakers even had an adjustment. I set my 1033s for 4-6 seconds. And my kw is 8, a Z 12 seconds. About a second per amp lol.

The idea is that it's easier for current to pass through the breaker than through the bulb enough to light it, the bulb is flowing a tiny bit of power when not lit, too large a bulb passes more. They are parallel so when the breaker drops out, the current then tries to flow more across the bulb. Too large a bulb can flow a decent current, so I like the idea of resistance being there forcing a low volt bulb. But with a good matching of parts, the new way is OK, definitely cheaper to make, and you only need one bulb type. The bulb won't light till the breaker drops out or is disconnected.

One thing I did notice about this ZW is the green light that's on all the time is dimmer than the older ZW 

I have. I've been reading the Repair Manual and on page 601 there a diagram of the wire resister number 

ZW-183 which says it should only be used with 6 volt bulbs and not used with 18 volt bulbs, I'm using 18 volt 

bulbs, is this right.

Even dead cold, I raise an eyebrow at over 15 seconds shorted without a trip. I think the round breakers even had an adjustment. I set my 1033s for 4-6 seconds. And my kw is 8, a Z 12 seconds. About a second per amp lol

The times Lionel gave for circuit breakers tripping seems long to me too, but I am not an engineer. Therefore, as long as the breaker meets Lionel's specifications, I am satisfied.
I address the long break times by using external protection.
Remember, the internal circuit breaker is there to protect the transformer, not anything  external to the transformer. 
Using external breakers, one on each "power" terminal, also addresses the fact that the internal breaker does not protect every potential circuit.
I use postwar Lionel #91 adjustable, electromagnetic breakers, set to trip as low as possible. They trip instantly when there is a dead short. There is no delay waiting for the breaker to heat up.

Hi Guy's, last night I read the manual and it say's about using #51 6 volt bulbs in the transformer

so this morning I took out the 6 volt bulbs in my other ZW and put them in the newer one and the  

circuit breaker work. So I guess the two 18 volt bulbs in the transformer were maybe pulling to much 

volt's for it to work. I'm going to try to find a #91 circuit breaker for my track for extra protection. 

Thanks Again for all your help

If you cannot find any reasonably priced #91 breakers, drop me a note. I think may have extra.

tinguy posted:

Hi Guy's, last night I read the manual and it say's about using #51 6 volt bulbs in the transformer

so this morning I took out the 6 volt bulbs in my other ZW and put them in the newer one and the  

circuit breaker work. So I guess the two 18 volt bulbs in the transformer were maybe pulling to much 

volt's for it to work. I'm going to try to find a #91 circuit breaker for my track for extra protection. 

Thanks Again for all your help

With the resistance? I didnt read it. The 6v bulb won't last long without some resistance to lower power and protect it.

The #91s are a great idea.

The ZW has the wire resistor that's needed for the 6 volt bulb and is working fine now which is great 

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