MTH Z4000 loaded vs unloaded and comparison to other transformers

Here is the higher 3.2A load test of the Z4000, set to 18V with no load and then loaded noting the voltage drop.

https://youtu.be/RIpRafGIVVM

and different Z4000 just to cross check and show it's not a one off. https://youtu.be/UUthzvAX9H4

FWIW, I'm trying to follow the schematic and determine how and where some of the droop is happening. The MTH Z4000 patent is US6281606B1 "Plural output electric train control station". I got that info from over here https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...34#25222951025415634

All I can say is I'm glad I sold that piece junk, a voltage drop like that with a couple of amps is crazy!

I’ve been explaining this for years and told I was crazy, that the Z4000 is the best in the industry, this from MTH techs.  I’m glad we got side tracked in the LED discussion and ended up here, I’m going to share this posting to all the non believers.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

All I can say is I'm glad I sold that piece junk, a voltage drop like that with a couple of amps is crazy!

John what transformer do you prefer?

@Vernon Barry posted:

Another tip, the Z4000 has 2 modes of
operation, but to see and use the second mode you need to use either just the 24000 receiver and a DCS remote using Z4K tracks, or the original Z4000 receiver and remote set. When using it, the Z4000
does become a voltage regulating mode and so the voltage you set with the remote- example 18V- then the Z4000 internally will maintain that output voltage as the load varies,

Vernon, what are Z4K tracks? I do use DCS but it would be nice to get the Z4000 into the mode that regulates and keeps the block at 18 VAC. To accomplish this I need a 24000 receiver?

@MCD4x4 posted:

Vernon, what are Z4K tracks? I do use DCS but it would be nice to get the Z4000 into the mode that regulates and keeps the block at 18 VAC. To accomplish this I need a 24000 receiver?

Found out during testing I was wrong, about how that function works. Yes, the display shows constant value (example 18V as set by the remote), however, actually putting a meter on the output, the voltage would sag under heavy load just like the handle setting, Again, when using the remote, the display on the front of the Z4000 no longer shows amperage because it indicates you are in remote control mode, and the displayed voltage is the commanded voltage (unloaded), not the measured (output at the jack) voltage. Also, this mode (remote control or Z4K) tends to increase the sensitivity of the over current or short circuit protection as well- a good safety feature.

Point being, it doesn't work how I thought it worked and this was the first time measuring it in a way to see that difference that I was completely unaware of. I don't know of a magic bullet to keep the Z4000 automatically at 18V with varying load with this latest testing and discovery.

DCS manual covers Z4k Tracks and Z4000 receiver. https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/20as14017i.pdf

Page 101

Chapter 6 cover s programming of the tracks  in the DCS remote to control Z4K tracks.

Specifically page 63 goes into the exact steps required for adding Z4K tracks.

Again, because the Z4000 had built in meters I did not add secondary meters to my tracks or wiring. That was kind of the point of having  the Z4K with meters. Second part is, the built in meters appear to be relatively accurate when comparing to a Fluke 101 meter (note, this is not a true RMS meter).  So when using the handles for controls the meters are displaying the output and what they display should match an external meter relatively accurately.

I had seen some voltage sag when you set a given voltage point via the handle and the load increased, I would typically see sometimes the voltage drop. Never really thought too much about this and never affected train operation especially not in command mode (DCS or TMCC/Legacy). Sometimes we would just nudge up the handle to read 18V under the new increased load.

At home I've been using the Z4000 remote control set and my transformer was mounted centrally under my table for wiring. Because the Z4000 remote has it's own LCD display I would just dial up 18V, or when running conventional enjoyed the both displayed commanded voltage and the smoothness of conventional operation using the Z4K remote. In fact, I still think for conventional that mode of using a Z4000 remote is incredibly smooth. All that said, again, I never had secondary meters on the track (voltage or current) and never had complaints of the voltage seeming low or sagging under load (lights dim, trains slowing, lack of smoke output).

Being fully open and honest, given these findings, I'm not going out tomorrow and dumping my Z4000s. I have a friend who has the expensive ZW-L and I'm not impressed by it. The analog meters are not easy to read from a distance, I question their accuracy, bell and whistle are still not as reactive timing wise for activating conventional MTH advanced bell and whistle commands and so forth. Same reason I'm not ever going to use GW-180s because I have to support a mixed fleet and often requires testing and possible programming of MTH PS1 engines- thus the Z4000 and it's programming feature are essential to both my home layout and club layout daily operations.

Again, yes, I was surprised and this is the first time using a secondary external meter to measure output- mainly because the Z4000 has accurate and useful internal meters. Yes, we've seen sag, often lived with it for years now and never thought twice about it. Typically this is because the load doesn't vary much on trains so once set initially the voltage might go up or down a volt nothing dramatic as seen in this more detailed and complete unloaded (literally no load) vs heavy load testing. Again, in some ways, I'm disappointed to see this performance, but in practical real world terms, if it was that big of a deal, you'd think this was known and talked about more??? On the Z4000 remote setup- since that has been out of production, I just do not know how many people actually are using it. I tried it and love it and likely will not stop using it. I still would recommend it for folks for running conventional because it just works well in my experience.

@MCD4x4 posted:

John what transformer do you prefer?

Not trying to answer for John, just trying to explain my take on what I know he uses (Lionel 180 watt Powehouses).

First I think the 180 Watt Powerhouse bricks are a great power source. They have an excellent built in circuit breaker. They output right on 18V and do not sag under typical loads any appreciable amount.

The catch22- they are not variable output devices. You have to put something in between them and the track if you want variable. Second part in most variable voltage conventional setups is bell and whistle DC offset buttons for activation. Add into the mix, you want to remotely control this via some form of handheld remote or even say an app on a phone or tablet device.

On the big "L" side of the house, you have the Legacy Powermasters, the TPC300 or 400, older original Powermasters.

Pros of those devices- made or intended to work well with the 180 watt power house. They also probably would be stiff and not sag because of the way they control and vary the power output.

You also have the ZW-C, ZW-L, GW180 transformer types.

One could throw in the MRC Pure Power series while at it if you needed a large 180 watt class variable power source and does conventional bell and whistle with diodes.

On the MTH side, you could use TIU variable channels to modulate a fixed input voltage for conventional operation (also does bell and whistle offsets).

Again, here is my thought process regarding the typical layout and daily usage:

You should turn off the track power before placing trains on the track or removing them. Do you slam that power on/off with a relay or power switch, or ramp up the voltage with a variable voltage source?

Do you run conventional trains or maybe one day have the need or desire to?

Might you ever have an MTH PS1 engine that has some more specific power requirements (example smooth sine wave) that also may need programming or reset?

Do you want to remotely be able to turn on and off an individual track or output or run conventionally via remote control?

@MCD4x4 posted:

John what transformer do you prefer?

I'm a huge fan of the Lionel Powerhouse 180 bricks.  If you're running command mode, there's no need for variable voltage, and they don't exhibit the large voltage swings under load.  As I demonstrated, with an 8 amp load, the voltage drops slightly less than 2 volts, that I can live with.  For variable voltage requirements, I use the capability of the MTH TIU variable channels.

One issue with widely varying voltage, My TMCC and early Legacy locomotives couplers stop working reliably under around 15.0-16 volts, and also the smoke output is greatly influenced by the track voltage.  Since in normal running I usually have only one or two locomotives in a single power district, I rarely exceed 4-5 amps of draw and experience minimal voltage drop.

I also practice what I preach, those four PH180's are the power for my layout.

Given the modest difference in actual performance in use, I consider other issues more compelling, at least for me.  As noted, performance (and safety) are the key issues.  Specifically, what determines my choices now is availability of parts/repair over the remaining years of my useful life .  I hope to live at least another decade or so, so I'm guessing availability of repair/parts is more likely with some devices than others (e.g. Lionel Powerhouses/ZW-L vs. everything else, such as MRC/MTH/Right of Way).

We probably should avoid advising new hobbyists to use equipment that hasn't been made or repairable for many years (MRC stuff, Z4000 remote, Lionel MW or RW).  There are better choices from a practical standpoint,  I think, in most cases.  There are lots of choices for conventional control, including simple, repairable and now cheap Lionel postwar transformers (ZW, KW, etc.) equipped with modern voltage and amperage protection devices. Personally I wouldn't recommend these to anyone who wasn't reasonably sophisticated about electrical/electronic stuff, even though I use them.  Using the Lionel Powerhouses with a TIU,  or a Z4000,  if you know someone who can repair them (in the latter case), is a reasonable choice, as noted above.  It seems to me that the odds of Lionel being around in 5-10 years are pretty good for parts/warranty repair.  Less so for MTH products.  Zero for MRC and other manufacturers, as far as consistent supply and availability of parts.

Bottom line is if what you have is working and safe, stick with it,  regardless of things other than performance and safety.  If you've got a Z4000 you're happy with, godspeed and your odds are good. It's been a reliable workhorse for decades.  But if you're buying new, I'd stick with a Lionel transformers (e.g., CW80, ZW-L) or Powerhouses/Powermasters, etc.  They have limitations (don't always play nicely with MTH locos for example) but the odds of warranty service/repair being available are better to my way of thinking.

@Vernon Barry

I did some real world testing while at my Dad's today with an engine on his Z4000 (First run model).

In this test I had a PS1 engine that I ramp up to 18 volts with the smoke on and use the direction button to show real world load changes in a conventional environment. At the end of the video I completely remove the engine from the track with the voltage handle left in it's original position. In my opinion my voltage didn't fluctuate violently like yours.

I run 2 Z4000’s on my 18’ X 30’ layout, ….all four variable channels have a job to do, and are connected to their blocks …..I see about the same as H1000, maybe a volt defection + or - 1V…….one thing I can say for certain, all 4 amp meters are known pathological liars, when verified by my Fluke meter, I can see anywheres from 2/10ths to half an amp difference …..I noticed that long before I added DCS through a TIU,…..it ain’t a deal breaker for me, I know the amp meter is in the neighborhood, and if I see the voltage droop when running command I just reach down and nudge the throttle, ……problem solved..

Pat

I’m with gunrunnerjohn on Lionel’s 180-Watt Powermaster bricks. I’m at the other end of the spectrum with a much smaller layout than his. But with the 180w brick, you turn it on and it’s 18 constant volts to the track with a lightning fast circuit breaker if needed and all controls done through my CAB 1 remote. And I can add a powered B unit and as many lighted aluminum cars as I want with the same constant power. I like the simplicity.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

I’m with gunrunnerjohn on Lionel’s 180-Watt Powermaster bricks. I’m at the other end of the spectrum with a much smaller layout than his. But with the 180w brick, you turn it on and it’s 18 constant volts to the track with a lightning fast circuit breaker if needed and all controls done through my CAB 1 remote. And I can add a powered B unit and as many lighted aluminum cars as I want with the same constant power. I like the simplicity.

Vern,

how is it if your running four to six trains?

MCD4x4:  I’m not suggesting that the 180 watt brick will run an infinite number of locomotives on one loop. It’s just that on my smaller layout and for my needs, it’s a good step up from the CW80 I’d been using on that loop.

On my layout at home, I run the whole thing with one PH180 brick.  A typical session will run three consists with one or two running smoke ocasionally.  So back at home today I ran a loaded test on the PH180.

Unloaded the brick measured 18.08 volts.
I turned on the layout and it got hit with a 2 amp load and it measured 17.78 volts.
I turned on two locomotives and cranked the smoke up to the MAX setting - 3.2 amps and 17.31
I turned on two more locomotives and again maxed out the smoke - 4.4 amps and 16.91 volts
I didn't actually run any trains, they just sat with smoke running at the highest output setting.

I think the PH180 did a good job.

Another little quick side test was to check the accuracy the internal voltage meter of a PS2 engine, It consistently read bout .15 to .2 volts lower than my meter with the smoke on.

@MCD4x4 posted:

how is it if your running four to six train?

The maximum power out of one handle of the Z4000 is 200 watts, the PH180 outputs 180 watts.  Since you can't parallel the Z4000 outputs, the specs are virtually the same for a single power district.  As has already been demonstrated, truly getting 200 watts from a single output of the Z4000 is probably a pipe dream if you want any reasonable voltage.  I don't see where the Z4000 will support more running trains on a power district than the PH180, AAMOF, I'd be wondering if it's even equal.

Thanks, John. 😉

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The maximum power out of one handle of the Z4000 is 200 watts, the PH180 outputs 180 watts.  Since you can't parallel the Z4000 outputs, the specs are virtually the same for a single power district.  As has already been demonstrated, truly getting 200 watts from a single output of the Z4000 is probably a pipe dream if you want any reasonable voltage.  I don't see where the Z4000 will support more running trains on a power district than the PH180, AAMOF, I'd be wondering if it's even equal.

Just performed a load test, using that heated bed circuit board configured in 12V mode (it parallels the 2 resistance circuit traces). Full throttle my Z4000 output 17V and 11A per the meters with this load. Now attempting to validate with external meters. That's 187 Watts in theory.

The problem with cross testing, my Fluke external meter maxes at 10A on the amperage side.

Just did more testing, the external Fluke meter was seeing 16.6V AC when the Z4000 meter was displaying 17V at full power into the load. Cross testing the Z4000 ammeter right on the line at 10A, I did not try to go full throttle because my meter again is pegged at 10A and the Z4000 meter was reading 9.9A at 17V with more throttle left but again, was trying not to pop the meter. Just to recap- an external Fluke meter read 10.04A and the built in Z4000 meters were reading 9.9A and 17V, but the handle was not yet at full throttle and pushing higher would increase the voltage and amperage exceedng what my Fluke external meter could handle.

I then tried this exact same load plugged into a brand new Legacy Powermaster being fed by a 180W Powerhouse. The problem was, the load would trip the overload indicator on the Legacy Powermaster and drop all output within a few seconds. I tried both command mode and conventional and it tripped both ways. I had to capture that on video rather than still shots to show the max output voltage achieved before trip point was 12.67V ouput into the load measured on the Fluke. What this implies was that the load was pushing the amperage too high.

Obviously I know the brick by itself probably could easily power the load and not trip, but putting the powemaster and this load was just too much.

Measuring the load, the lowest I got on my meters is 1.3Ohms, but then it might fluctuate and multiple reads came up to 1.4, maybe 1.5Ohms. Also, with multiple tests, the heater obviously began to rise in resistance as it gets hot so I tried to cool it off as much as possible between tests.

Basically, you're saying that the Z4000 is pretty much the same power per handle as a PH180.  One issue using the Z4000 with TMCC/Legacy is if you want at least 16V under load, you have to start at more than the 19V absolute max for TMCC/Legacy to compensate for the drop, that's a bit problematic.   While I know that 20-21 volts won't immediately kill a TMCC/Legacy locomotive, Lionel has that limit well documented for a reason.

@gunrunnerjohn or @Vernon Barry How many watts do you think  you get out of a PW ZW? Also how about the voltage drop under load?  Just curious as I don't have your testing equipment.

I run PW ZW's for my mains all protected with modern safeguards... Not sure why I like these old transformers, but I do.

Mitch, you should be able to count on around 220-230 watts from the ZW.  Postwar transformers are rated on input power, not output power like modern transformers.  That being the case, the 275 watts gets cut down by around 15% or so based on the efficiency of the transformer.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mitch, you should be able to count on around 220-230 watts from the ZW.  Postwar transformers are rated on input power, not output power like modern transformers.  That being the case, the 275 watts gets cut down by around 15% or so based on the efficiency of the transformer.

Thanks John!

Just ran another test after finding the right combination of resistance load for the new CW80 "fanless" transformer. I had to put one of the heated beds in 24V mode(series) the other one in parallel, but it was showing 17.67V AC output and 4.99A draw with my second Fluke meter. That's 88.17 Watts and not tripping the overload indicator. I didn't run it for a long time period, but again, the transformer was not complaining and not indicating overload.