2-Rail vs 3-Rail

I think it already has and it's called 3 rail scale. 3RS lets you cheat with radius a little when you need too but also gives you the operations of two rail with kadees. Also, if using DCS, you have a control system that is suitable for both 2 and 3 rail. DCC also works for both, as I have heard of people converting their 3 rail engines to DCC.

There's still a significant part of the hobby (probably the majority) who see three rail trains as toys rather than strictly as scale models.  Folks like to collect Lionel and other prewar, postwar or modern equipment, use out of scale operating accessories, etc.  Those of us who like this aspect of three rail can enjoy watching others doing scale modeling in two rail, but most of us have no interest in pursuing that aspect of the hobby ourselves.

 

In the future, as those who remember Lionel as a toy company lose interest or worse, I'd guess three rail may slowly die out for that reason.  There's not a whole lot of reason to use three rail, operationally, if you're a scale modeler. 

There are MTH premier engines, two rail ready.  Remove the pick-up rollers and flick a switch  This Decapod is  two rail ready.  An interesting concept, I would guess MTH doesn't have to set-up a separate production line for two rail.

You would still have to consider the oversized wheel flanges to accommodate one of these engines.

Here is a thought: When I scan the advertisements I see that the 3R stuff is substantially less expensive than the 2R stuff, for essentially the same equipment. I suppose there are economies of scale at work here, but I wish it would work in our favor. In my case I have always been a bottom feeder. I look for deals involving older distressed 2R equipment with a view toward refurbishing them. I don't think I will ever pay $1K+ for a new brassie, even if I were to win the lottery. I am too cheap. But I have never really been convinced that the new brass stuff offered by MTH or Weaver etc. has been in the same league as the older KTM units. I have always hated when you buy a nice new brass steamer and 6 weeks after you put it on the layout the gearbox chews itself up. Comments?

 

J

"I suppose that in order to make this happen we need a control system that is compatible to both worlds. What do you think??"

 

 

I am excited about the future of RC battery powered engines as one doesn't have to wire the layout, worry about shorts, stalls, flickers, dead spots  and anything else one can think. I think it would be sort of nice that one has to bring ones engines into a refueling area for charging,say a slip arrangement under the engine that will plug it into a charger when ran over, press a button to start charger, and power up another set of engines to run ones trains. Coupling and uncoupling the power to ones train. Sort of like the need  in real life. Yup, If a nice lith. battery power unit was available I would be a buyer. I have DC and DCC and DCS. enough. batteries is where it is at.

 

Phill

 

I am going to enter this conversation only to interject some minor points about 2 rail models as they compare to 3 rail and the fact about varying degrees of quality depending on importer or builder. I am not taking sides on the debate, they are both great and both serve very different mediums of the hobby, OK.

 

Look the way I see it 3 rail has its qualities and I feel bad for the fellas that have invested into 3 rail infrastructure and discover that they would have rather gone scale.. what is scale anyway?

 

Honestly 3 rail or 2 rail are both not scale as far as gauge goes- now wait, well it depends; its ridiculous all the fit the box dimensions, swing out pilots to make tight radius turns, 2’ scale high flanges, over size 2 rail wheel sets, 1/24 scale couplers, grab irons that are a scale 2’ in diameter (poor crews), 17/64, 1/45, 1/43, 1/48…. and on and on. In our realm of “O Gauge” it is as bad as “G Gauge”. The standards are all over the place. It drives me crazy both explaining this mess and trying to sift through the scores of supposed scale offerings to find a real scale offering.

 

An ex-member of my O scale club once started to literally cry with so much frustration when I mentioned these models and toys are all “TOYS”.  He was one of those guys that insisted that scale was NOT a toy and 3 rail no matter the scale variety or not was a TOY. I believe IMHO he is dead wrong. These are all toys. I have $6000 scale toys as some of you have seen; and I have Postwar Lionel that I dearly adore and collect that are Toy Trains, I am also a member of the TCA.  They are all toys. Some toys are SERIOUS some toys are LIGHT HEARTED and FUN!

 

Depending on the importer a “brass steamer” that has a gear failure sounds like an early brass piece from Korea (learning curve with the builder) or cheaply built import.

 

There are plenty of brass models that have been made from garbage to incredible. I am sorry you have not experienced what a real drive is like on a top end piece due to the fact it can not be bought for $150. Ball bearing drives do not fall apart and a 30 pound steam locomotive model with DCC and LokSounds, ball bearings everywhere will run beyond my years and I am in my late 30’s.

 

Early MG and USH (KTM, Pioneer, etc) models are substantial in build quality but are also 60 years old in detail technology. The community has changed; in effect what we consider acceptable for detail is different now than in 1959. Is this a 3 foot model or a magnifying glass model? Back up to Minton Cronkhite’s era when the decent model was seen running 15’ away on an exhibit layout. Today we walk with our models with DCC controllers and have one on one interaction with the model. Yes- you can upgrade and detail these older pieces to match and exceed the “hybrid” models from Lionel/MTH today and the entry class brass made currently.

 

In the current market without using name brands to be fair there is a substantial range of brass imports varying from entry level to high end. Entry level is an entry level price that starts at what most high end hybrids are priced at and yes I would in some cases rather have the hybrid version for the same price as the entry level entry in brass. We have discussed why the costs are different in another thread. Looking at the high end pieces it is a no issue. If you have not run them, or seen them in person please refrain from using them in ANY comparison to an out of the box $150-$1000 dollar models.

 

P-48 is a love affair I have; sadly it is the same mess that plagues most 3 rail scale guys that wish they went 2 rail. O5W is fine, but bulky looking and almost Toy Like in appearance. Oops there is that “TOY” being used to describe a not accurate model. We should try and come up with a new term for non-scale or non-FINE-scale, or non-Toy-Like. Confused yet?

 

Most of this was written not in opinion but from observation.

 

Bob2 or , what say you? Rufus?

 

 

 

I'll bite, but first I have to go see why OST was locked.

The term scale trains and toy trains I take with a grain of salt. To me I have other toys; 1:1 cars, a 1;1 boat, model trains or should I say toy trains. To me they are all toys and meant to be enjoyed.  Scale or not.

the future of RC battery powered engines as one doesn't have to wire the layout, worry about shorts, stalls, flickers, dead spots

BINGO!

 

When the manufacturers realize they'll practically eliminate shorts and the labor involved in repairing them at their expense, we'll see RC/battery engines become the norm.I'll even go so far as to predict Lionel and MTH will get out of the command system business and make their engines "Plug & Play" where a universal DCC system, RC/battery system, or just straight DC motor with a "Ready" plug for adding DCC or RC (with a switch to go from running on 3-rail to 2-rails and back) as the future way of doing business.
The Command and Control systems have got to be eating away at their spending account.

Let's stop this thread NOW!  We went through all of this just a few months ago.  

Ed

I can't believe the toy vs. scale/model thing came up again. It is a total waste of time to discuss.

 

I personally don't believe a straight RC/Battery locomotive will happen anytime soon but I have been thinking about it and if they made the locomotive where it could run off of track power or battery power I could see a slight possibility of that happening. Perhaps selling the batteries separately for those that want it. Of course the RC board with the antennae would have to either be included or at least available as a plug in. Again for those that want it.

 

By and large, as Bob2 mentioned above, the 3 Rail guys just don't mind the center rail so nothing is going to change there. Same thing with RC/Battery. Just too few people want it.

 

Bob wrote:

"The Command and Control systems have got to be eating away at their spending account."

 

I don't think so Bob. I think it costs them under $20 per board and they add ten times that amount to the price of the locomotive. I believe the electronics are helping a lot to make money for the manufacturers. If the electronics were eating away at their profits they would have eliminated them years ago.

Another thought to ponder.

 

Some folks say they will not consider R/C battery operation  because of the cost.

 

Hummmm....I build model RR benchwork full time. 

 

When you just write a check for any size benchwork job it can represent a good sized number whether you get a Mianne kit or have one stick built.

 

The kicker is that properly wiring that same RR frequently costs as much or more than the benchwork. 

 

The sucker punch  is that many modelers run a small roll of wire every other night or so for an hour or two as needed to get the trains running, then inch by inch they add wiring for additional needs and have no real idea how much time or accumulated cost is involved.

 

For a check writter, standing back and considering any model RR, IMO it can be a revenue neutral decision between battery or track power.

 

And this does not even start to consider special wiring for diamonds & custom point work and dirty track.

 

www.curvedbenchwork.net

A friend is building a large P48 railroad and it is running smoothly with RC battery power.  He is using DCC for control and sounds - but the commands are sent to the battery powered locomotive via radio - not through the rails.  He's found run times to be a non-issue, and I envy the relative ease he'll be able to wire signaling.

 

Battery power comes with some disadvantages as well as advantages.  It's cost vs. benefit is heavily influenced by the size of your locomotive roster.  With larger numbers of locomotives one would want a system to manage recharging the batteries.  Ideally it would be hands off with no risk of fire or explosion  due to improper charging.  The batteries should be installed in a way so leaks won't  damage the rolling stock (like the rail rechargeable NiCads in one of my passenger trains).  Then there is the issue of runaway trains or inattentive operators - how do you do a panic stop if the command doesn't get through to the locomotive, or prevent derailments by running through an open turnout (DCC powered frogs trip a  breaker), or worse yet an open lift section?

 

I think battery power has a promising future - but not in mine as the layout wiring is done....

 

Ed

"Some folks say they will not consider R/C battery operation  because of the cost."

 

When I built my last layout, which was about 15 years ago, I spent under $300 for the cost of the wiring and switches (it was conventional). Of course that doesn't include a transformer which I already had. If I add the cost of a Z4000 to that price it brings it up to $725. If it costs $100 to retro fit a locomotive to battery power and I have 30 locomotives that's $3,000. Even if it costs only $50 for each engine that would still be $1,500. Yeah, wiring isn't cheap but neither is retrofitting engines.

 

I agree with the guys that want RC/Battery that it does have a lot of advantages especially for someone entering the hobby who doesn't have a layout. But there are cons as Ed mentioned above.

I can.  There are a host of topics that re-surface in an almost cyclical manner.

 

Not an entire waste of time.  It does give some individuals something to do with all of their apparent free time.

 

Do carry on while I make some pancakes to put on a bunny's head.

It is a waste of time.  I would never open a thread like this, let alone post to it.  I have better things to do.

 

I will probably convert one locomotive to battery/RC and sound.  There is no rule that all have to be converted.  On the other hand, I don't run trains very often anyway.  

I thought this thread was over.

Unsubscribe

It is over.  Nobody will ever again post to it.  Not even me.  (Oops.)

You'll pay for the whole seat, but you'll only need THE EDGE!

 

Erik, challenge accepted.  I 'm in my 30's as well and have both an MTH UP bigboy and a Key UP challenger.  My money is on the bigboy.  Big steel axles and bronze bearings, oversized side rods and steel crank pins, very beefy gearboxes and a Pittman motor.  With PS2.0 I just have to occasionally read the odometer to check scale mileage driven.
  The Key UP Challenger while ball bearing equipped only seem to have them on the drive axles.  None on the side rods and the motor is certainly not a Pittman!
  Both are equally heavy and capable but, as Bob2 can testify with many years of Museum running, MTH drives are proven in demanding conditions.  NYSME's UCRR running can be as equally unforgiving.  A fellow member once had UP Kleinschmidt Bigboy on the RR but is currently off for maintenance, the MTH diecast brutes continue undeterred. 

John and for the sake of keeping the thread on tangent yes 2 rail.  I started in 3 rail back in 2004 but in 2005 I discovered NYSME and have forever since been in 2 rail and can't see myself with 3.  I still buy some 3 rail to convert but these days it's much, much easier with RTR parts.  The difference for me from 3 to 2 was a buffet of simple things I could leave out of my diet, the pizza cutter, the lobster claws, swinging pilots and oversized rail.  However for my daughter I can still see a place for tinplate.  She is turning 3 and I'm sure she would love the pink girls tinplate set MTH offers and so would daddy so she doesn't play with his scale trains.  I'd be ok if she wrecked them or tried to they're durable and handle the abuse.  She is a girly girl but oh man would she love this http://www.justrains.com/webst...aqk0pkgg2mmu9he76du6

Got the pancakes but no bunny; this crew came in and grabbed them instead...

 

There's no doubt this subject is a "Merry GO ROUND" for a lot of us, but theres always new people on the forum, reading what makes us dizzy, and I guess its new to them.    Stephen      (cTr....Choose the Right)

Most here are regulars.  This is a very popular thread, in spite of those who say they do not like it - no, maybe it is popular because the folks who do not like this sort of thread are joining in with gusto.

 

I prefer 2- rail track, but I have been impressed with what 3- rail modelers have produced.  Difficult for me to overlook their track, but it is not difficult for them, and that is what counts.

 

Oops! I posted again!  How will this die if we keep posting to it?

For some strange reason I find myself drawn to this post. It's bringing the scale people out of the proverbial closet..

Hey Bob:

 

That's OK. At least you aren't running both 2-rail and 3-rail. That gets downright confusing, but yet somehow sounds familiar.

Bob

Point one: well said

Point two: very funny!

 

Mark in Oregon

I still have an L shaped 20' section of Gargraves in the garage.  Originally I used it for the Lionel 700 stuff, and had it set up so that with a Roach Clip change I could run 2-rail on it.  I can still do that, but have only one three rail locomotive:

 

 

I think I stole the motor out of it for some other project.