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Remaking Flyer transformers would be a waste of time and resources better devoted to S FasTrack, rolling stock and locomotive development.  Particularly as Flyer now comes with either FlyerChief or Legacy.

Even if Lionel would remake, say, the 30B transformer, it would be like the modern ZW: A repro case with internal electronics powered by external bricks.  Probably costing around 500 bucks.

There are plenty of alternatives for transformers out there.

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque
@NotInWI posted:

The odds of any sort of new tooling for anything related to AF 75th seems like a pipe dream.  

I think you will see a return of the K Line big boy, if the tooling is still available to L.  I also think you will see a iconic set or two from the Gilbert days make a reappearance.  But that’s it.  

Ben

I could be interested in a newly-tooled and properly scaled Big Boy, but the ex K-Line Large Lad?

No...

Regardless, we'll know in 10 days.

Rusty

I could be interested in a newly-tooled and properly scaled Big Boy, but the ex K-Line Large Lad?

No...

Regardless, we'll know in 10 days.

Rusty

Wouldn’t they just need to tool for the engine? The tender I thought was the same basically as the one used on the Challenger, which is in proportion I believe and has a lot of detail for most people.  

Also, could the chassis that they did use on the K line engine for ‘S’  be suitable for a new scale boiler shell?  So bottom line, could they just get away with a new boiler shell with some mods elsewhere. Not my area of expertise on the BB’s and Challengers, let the experts chip in here.

@Ukaflyer posted:

Wouldn’t they just need to tool for the engine? The tender I thought was the same basically as the one used on the Challenger, which is in proportion I believe and has a lot of detail for most people.  

Also, could the chassis that they did use on the K line engine for ‘S’  be suitable for a new scale boiler shell?  So bottom line, could they just get away with a new boiler shell with some mods elsewhere. Not my area of expertise on the BB’s and Challengers, let the experts chip in here.

The Boiler would definitely need a new tool.

Lionel could use the previous Challenger's tender tooling as the K-Line's is mis-prortioned.  There is no difference in the prototype world between the 3900 class Challenger and the Big Boy tenders.  Indeed, the 4014 currently is using the 3985's tender.

I'm not sure if there were any compromises for the drive, but it would need at least new cylinder tools.  The Big Boy's cylinders were larger than the Challengers and the K-Line's are also mis-proportioned.

So, there would be some cost savings with some reuse, just as there was with the Legacy Berkshire.

Rusty

RE: Lionel-AF Big Boy

There appears to be some confusion (above) regarding this engine. The Big Boy was made using the K-Line 0-31 boiler, tender, trailing truck, and tender lead truck tooling. New non-articulated split two-motor running gear was tooled to run on S gauge track fitted with the Legacy and RS boards of the period (circa. 2009) along with an Electrocoupler(TM). S gauge wheels were fitted to the not-scale trailing truck and tender.  Although the engine and tender are shorter than they should be, the principle sin (among several) as a model is the height of the engine and tender. As built, the model will negotiate Gilbert curves, but turnouts can be a significant struggle, particularly in reverse. In order to manufacture an all new, accurate UP Big Boy, almost everything except the scale-sized Challenger tender would need to be newly tooled ($!!). If one is interested in the details, I reviewed the Big Boy for the March/April 2010 issue of S Gaugian.

I own a sample that has the great benefit of the Carl Tuveson mods whereby both operation and appearance are much improved. As modified, it is a fun engine to run with the best quality sounds of any Lionel AF steam engine to date. Unfortunately, it is still over 2 scale ft. too tall, as well as over 4 ft. too short. Oh, well.

Have fun.

Bob

The L-AF Big Boy as delivered:

AF BB 9

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  • L-AF BB
Last edited by Bob Bubeck

Nice to see some good Big Boy/Challenger comparison shots, Tom.

It helps in my opinion that IF Lionel would do another Flyer Big Boy, it should be true S Scale proportioned, as the price tag would probably be over $1000.00.  Again, my opinion.

But, it's probably a moot point.  I expect it'll be a couple of years before we see another Flyer Legacy steam locomotive.

Rusty

@Bob Bubeck posted:

RE: Lionel-AF Big Boy

There appears to be some confusion (above) regarding this engine. The Big Boy was made using the K-Line 0-31 boiler, tender, trailing truck, and tender lead truck tooling. New non-articulated split two-motor running gear was tooled to run on S gauge track fitted with the Legacy and RS boards of the period (circa. 2009) along with an Electrocoupler(TM). S gauge wheels were fitted to the not-scale trailing truck and tender.  Although the engine and tender are shorter than they should be, the principle sin (among several) as a model is the height of the engine and tender. As built, the model will negotiate Gilbert curves, but turnouts can be a significant struggle, particularly in reverse. In order to manufacture an all new, accurate UP Big Boy, almost everything except the scale-sized Challenger tender would need to be newly tooled ($!!). If one is interested in the details, I reviewed the Big Boy for the March/April 2010 issue of S Gaugian.

I own a sample that has the great benefit of the Carl Tuveson mods whereby both operation and appearance are much improved. As modified, it is a fun engine to run with the best quality sounds of any Lionel AF steam engine to date. Unfortunately, it is still over 2 scale ft. too tall, as well as over 4 ft. too short. Oh, well.

Have fun.

Bob

The L-AF Big Boy as delivered:

AF BB 9

My Big Boy also has the C.T. mods, and is one of my favorites, I am Flyer friendly and love it, oversize and all.

Ray

These two engines aren't Gilbert.  Any new tooling for the 75th anniversary should be on Gilbert updated engines.  In the past the Hudson was probably the favorite.

That's why I think the Allegheny would be perfect.  Gilbert thought about producing one, going so far as having a mock-up made.  It would offer a good look back and good look forward.

2-6-6-6 AFL 1946

Rusty

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Images (1)
  • 2-6-6-6 AFL 1946
Last edited by Rusty Traque
@Ukaflyer posted:

Do any photos exist of the Gilbert mock up which can be uploaded here to see what it looks like. I have never seen one published anywhere that I know of.

There was a photo in one of the Thouy-McComas books.  The mock-up itself is really underwhelming.  A detail-less turned wood boiler and cab (painted black) over two partial Hudson mechanisms.  Last I heard it was in a private collection.

However, the fact that Gilbert even entertained the thought of doing such a monster in the late 1950's is significant.  Given the likes of the Challenger, Y3 and Legacy Berk, it's well within the abilities of Lionel to build such a model.

I suspect one of the reasons it went no further was the mechanics of the time.  Probably only the rear engine would have been powered.  Small motors and the two-point articulation commonly used today weren't available back then.

Rusty

There was a photo in one of the Thouy (Touhy)-McComas books.  The mock-up itself is really underwhelming.  A detail-less turned wood boiler and cab (painted black) over two partial Hudson mechanisms.  Last I heard it was in a private collection.

<snip>

Rusty

Oh, you must mean this:

Gilbert Allegeny ProtoGilbert Allegeny Proto2

From my archives - a Gilbert concept model which was in the Dan Olsen collection at the time the picture was taken by TM about 30 years ago. The attached card is a validation of authenticity from Maury Romer.

Enjoy.

Bob

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Images (2)
  • Gilbert Allegeny Proto
  • Gilbert Allegeny Proto2
Last edited by Bob Bubeck

It’s been almost a year now since I started this topic.  I had hope that Lionel would say something about some new tooling for the 75th anniversary.  There have been some great ideas that have been suggested and I really hope at least one of them happens.  My fear is what we are going to get is no new tooling but a reissue of a Gilbert piece or pieces that they have not remade since Lionel took it over.  

My first choice would be something new.  My second would be something they showed in previous catalogs but never made (SD40, Mechanical Refer, Fastrack RR crossing etc).  My Third choice would be a remake of an older Gilbert item or set (Circus set, Milk Car or Cattle Loader with Sound) with updated electronics.

I guess we will know in about 1 week.

—Rocco—

@Bob Bubeck posted:

Oh, you must mean this:

Gilbert Allegeny Proto

From my archives - a Gilbert concept model which was in the Dan Olsen collection at the time the picture was taken by TM about 30 years ago. The attached card is a validation of authenticity from Maury Romer.

Enjoy.

Bob

The drivers look like they are from an 0-8-0/0-6-0. They must have either shortened the 0-8-0 chassis down or possibly used an 0-6-0 B6 chassis, the spacing looks like it is a B6 chassis, difficult to tell. Does the label tell us what year it was done?

Last edited by Ukaflyer

Back in October of last year, Ryan Kunkle from Lionel indicated that orders for the the latest EP-5 low and it was on the bubble.  He hinted at (expensive) improvements were being made to the locomotive.

I wonder if the EP-5's will be recataloged with mention to the improvements in an effort to increase orders...

We'll know soon, I guess.

Rusty

I could never understand this secretive bit about what is being built and not telling the full story about all the features it will have. If you want to sell something then let everyone know what you will be getting for the money.

I have all the EP-5’s so far and in reality do I really need another one, probably not.

@richabr posted:

I could never understand this secretive bit about what is being built and not telling the full story about all the features it will have. If you want to sell something then let everyone know what you will be getting for the money.

Isn't that what the catalog is for?

You are right but we have seen in the past when bits have not been delivered as shown in the catalog or bits added. If bits have been removed and you have a deposit down then it can be a bit late to change your mind.

@Ukaflyer posted:

The drivers look like they are from an 0-8-0/0-6-0. They must have either shortened the 0-8-0 chassis down or possibly used an 0-6-0 B6 chassis, the spacing looks like it is a B6 chassis, difficult to tell. Does the label tell us what year it was done?

I did not take the photo, so I am speculating, too. The appearance suggests the use of 0-8-0 wheels in standard 6-wheel drive chassis (or black-painted wood blocks). The two chassis are not the stock B6b chassis because the wheel spacing is even. I suggest not overworking the concept. The Gilbert product folks were just trying an idea on for size, not "considering production". The cost to tool a finished piece such as this along with the practicalities of the cab overhang probably quickly led to putting the idea aside. I would place the piece as circa. mid-50's.

To celebrate 75 years of Gilbert S gauge, I would opt for an all-new detailed Legacy K5 or J3a with heavies to match. This would offer a truly classic Gilbert set (harking back to even the late 1930's in the 3/16" scale O gauge trains) updated to present practice and customer expectations. And, I feel this would sell well. But, that's just I.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck
@Bob Bubeck posted:

To celebrate 75 years of Gilbert S gauge, I would opt for an all-new detailed Legacy K5 or J3a with heavies to match. This would offer a truly classic Gilbert set (harking back to even the late 1930's in the 3/16" scale O gauge trains) updated to present practice and customer expectations. And, I feel this would sell well. But, that's just I.

Bob

If I had to pick one it would have to be the K5, only because I have more Hudson’s than K5’s.  Hudson’s seemed to be more popular over here for some reason. I know Lionel have the tooling for the Hudson but did any bits survive into the Lionel era for the K5?  

Lionel have already done the heavies for the PRR, so they are already part way to doing that combination already.

@Ukaflyer posted:

If I had to pick one it would have to be the K5, only because I have more Hudson’s than K5’s.  Hudson’s seemed to be more popular over here for some reason. I know Lionel have the tooling for the Hudson but did any bits survive into the Lionel era for the K5?  

The tooling for the K5 and the 0-8-0 was showing signs of decline with the 21115's and 21145's from 1958. When Lionel opted to reintroduce the Northern, they quickly found that the old tools would not make a satisfactory product and had to retool almost the whole model (the only carried over piece was the pilot casting). I doubt that the old Hudson tool is much better. Please recall that much of the Gilbert die cast boiler tooling (except for the New Haven Pacific) dates from the late 1930's. All-new tooling would likely be required for a desirable result.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck
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