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CN will have to be with a secondhand UP as there is only 1 plastic tool for the SD40-2 body. 

Also announced are:

ACE 3000 - Modern Steam Demonstrator (Many Liveries Available)

Rock Island "Rocket"  TA Diesel + 4 Cars. 

B&O EL-3, EL-5 2-8-8-0

Always new production, new designs, new tools, sometimes never been done before.

Scott Mann

Swafford posted:

I'd be a buyer for the Frisco SD40-2's!

Regards,

Swafford

FRISCO SD40-2

All ya gotta do Frank is to put in your order, as they have a "suggestions" tab for the order.  Need three units, I think you are probably 15% there to getting what you want.  Start lobbying others to get on the band wagon.  Heck, there may be a dealer in the old Frisco territory that may take the balance.  Nice looking consist. 

Re the Canadian safety cab.  Scott does not believe there would be sufficient reservations to justify the additional tooling cost.

Canadian hobby shops guaranteed sufficient reservations to get the Canadian made so lobbying there is one possibility in addition to individuals. 

Another is Shapeways.  Ask the guys who are making them available in HO if they will upscale them to O.  I found a guy who is upscaling his HO GP39/40-2 dynamic brake sections for me.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

I am a long time 3rd Rail customer and their models are excellent. However, given the MSRP of $729.99 for a plastic diesel I'd have to give this one some thought.  

I have my share of detractors here on this forum, because of my comments about recent Lionel pricing.  But if we want to know where Lionel is headed with its 2017 pricing (and beyond), we can look no further than 3rd Rail.  Now before I infuriate more forum members, let me clearly state this is NOT a slur against 3rd Rail.  The models they produce are seldom second-to-none in the 3-rail O-Gauge community, and that category of product comes with a hefty price tag.  If you want the best, you knowingly shell out those hefty bucks... and never look back. 

What I AM saying though is this...  successful companies know how to MARKET their products well.  Because at the end of the day, they're competing for the same deep pockets of a limited number of enthusiasts who can afford this class of product.  And clearly, just from skimming this thread, we can clearly see there IS a decent degree of enthusiasm for these highly detailed products.  Indeed, just look at the number of folks in this thread alone who have already pre-ordered (or plan to pre-order) 2, 3 or 4 (or more) of these diesel locos at $730/each! 

While we're at it... Another interesting 3rd Rail price-point worth noting is the SP 0-6-0 switcher coming in at $1,450 MSRP.  Double-WOW!!!  But the detail level on this puppy appears to set a new benchmark for 3-rail O-Gauge detail standards.  So I guess this is why Lionel has no issue pricing its latest Legacy 0-8-0 switchers (due out later this year) at $900 MSRP, while less than 4 years ago the same switchers carried a $700 MSRP.  Although Lionel's product will likely have nowhere near the detail level of the 3rd Rail / Sunset Models product, I honestly believe Lionel is trying to court the SAME market 3rd Rail is trying to capture.  In some cases, they'll win.  And in others, they'll lose. 

There will always be somebody who wants the absolute best and is willing to pay for it.  While others may feel there's a point at which they'd be happy settling for a bit less (of a model) when they're spending considerably less dollars.  I honestly believe Lionel is hoping to grab a piece of the latter segment of "high end buyers".  So suddenly Lionel's $900 MRSP (avg street-price $750), may not seem too badly priced compared to 3rd Rail's $1,350-$1,450 street price.

Getting back to this particular topic at hand... i.e., the newly announced 3rd Rail $730 SD40-2 diesels.  It wasn't THAT long ago that Lionel offered their VisionLine ES44 diesels at $875-ish MSRP, and that got us one heck of a diesel locomotive with a ton of heft -- not to mention the die-cast shell.  To get a VisionLine diesel like that today, we'd probably be shelling out $1,600 easy.

So everything is relative... and perhaps $730 doesn't seem too bad for the detail level and high-quality product enthusiasts would be getting.    Never thought I'd hear myself saying that though!!!      And it's still a TON of money I wouldn't spend on impulse. 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer
Rocky Mountaineer posted:
PAUL ROMANO posted:

I am a long time 3rd Rail customer and their models are excellent. However, given the MSRP of $729.99 for a plastic diesel I'd have to give this one some thought.  

I have my share of detractors here on this forum, because of my comments about recent Lionel pricing.  But if we want to know where Lionel is headed with its 2017 pricing (and beyond), we can look no further than 3rd Rail.  Now before I infuriate more forum members, let me clearly state this is NOT a slur against 3rd Rail.  The models they produce are seldom second-to-none in the 3-rail O-Gauge community, and that category of product comes with a hefty price tag.  If you want the best, you knowingly shell out those hefty bucks... and never look back. 

What I AM saying though is this...  successful companies know how to MARKET their products well.  Because at the end of the day, they're competing for the same deep pockets of a limited number of enthusiasts who can afford this class of product.  And clearly, just from skimming this thread, we can clearly see there IS a decent degree of enthusiasm for these highly detailed products.  Indeed, just look at the number of folks in this thread alone who have already pre-ordered (or plan to pre-order) 2, 3 or 4 (or more) of these diesel locos at $730/each! 

While we're at it... Another interesting 3rd Rail price-point worth noting is the SP 0-6-0 switcher coming in at $1,450 MSRP.  Double-WOW!!!  But the detail level on this puppy appears to set a new benchmark for 3-rail O-Gauge detail standards.  So I guess this is why Lionel has no issue pricing its latest Legacy 0-8-0 switchers (due out later this year) at $900 MSRP, while less than 4 years ago the same switchers carried a $700 MSRP.  Although Lionel's product will likely have nowhere near the detail level of the 3rd Rail / Sunset Models product, I honestly believe Lionel is trying to court the SAME market 3rd Rail is trying to capture.  In some cases, they'll win.  And in others, they'll lose. 

There will always be somebody who wants the absolute best and is willing to pay for it.  While others may feel there's a point at which they'd be happy settling for a bit less (of a model) when they're spending considerably less dollars.  I honestly believe Lionel is hoping to grab a piece of the latter segment of "high end buyers".  So suddenly Lionel's $900 MRSP (avg street-price $750), may not seem too badly priced compared to 3rd Rail's $1,350-$1,450 street price.

Getting back to this particular topic at hand... i.e., the newly announced 3rd Rail $730 SD40-2 diesels.  It wasn't THAT long ago that Lionel offered their VisionLine ES44 diesels at $875-ish MSRP, and that got us one heck of a diesel locomotive with a ton of heft -- not to mention the die-cast shell.  To get a VisionLine diesel like that today, we'd probably be shelling out $1,600 easy.

So everything is relative... and perhaps $730 doesn't seem too bad for the detail level and high-quality product enthusiasts would be getting.    Never thought I'd hear myself saying that though!!!      And it's still a TON of money I wouldn't spend on impulse. 

David

Bear in mind Sunset is building for a much smaller market, 400-450 piece run seems to be the norm and a largely 2 rail market for many of their products, Atlas I believe and this has been pointed out by others has to stay in line with MTH and Lionel in the motive power market Sunset not so much. add shipping to that price and you are paying 1500+ for a pair of SD40-2s still a quarter of what you would have to pay for a pair of brass models [ if or when such become available] JMO

Matt01 posted:
Hot Water posted:
 

To be fair, ONLY the body is "plastic". Don't forget that the underframe, truck assemblies, and that fantastic single motor drive system are all metal (NOT diecast, either).

"... fantastic single motor drive system ...."

How do they perform compared to Legacy diesels?

From what I've seen, and read, they perform better at slow speeds, have prototypically correct fixed pilots with full length vertical hand rails, and are painted and lettered CORRECTLY.

I wish I could say I had the same success as Doug in the running department. I have video of the Lionel up f3's (pre legacy) that demonstrate smoother operation then my sunset f7's. With that said, neither set of engines or single engine for that matter has the slow speed smoothness of my Lionel s2. But that is not really an apples to apples comparison. I think the bottom line is now is if there is a big difference, than there is probably something wrong with the units your running.

And my 2 lionel TMCC Lionel F3s have torn out 2 idler gears because they don't like each other... so I made them work together. They run much better without the idler gears now with only 1 drive axle... just like the F7s.

I had a Sunset F7B running really slow and hot vs the other three, but I found the screw heads on the motor mount were rubbing on the flywheel. When it was assembled, the flywheel just got pushed on too far.

My Sunset FP7s have been flawless from day one. 

Honestly I was going to send my F7s back because of some of the inaccuaracies... why did I keep them??

The horizontal drives! I can't wait to get my SD7 Tiger Stripes.

The markings on the CR/NS 6764 would be what I'd be interested in - specifically the classic intertwined 'PRR' logo (minus keystone) that showed up on both Conrail and Norfolk Southern locomotives. I can't seem to find whether any of the SD40-2s acquired from CR by NS had either of the possibilities rather than the normal text 'PRR'/'NS' markings.

I'm actually shocked that over the years that none of the manufacturers (none that I've recalled seeing, anyways) have bothered to implement such a transition paint scheme to the SPFs that don't mind modern power... There have been very few with just the regular font (only one Atlas SD35 and a Lionel SD80MAC to my memory)...

My first choice would be a Soo Line SD40-2 from SOO 757 to SOO 774 in the original curved red swoosh scheme.

They would be able to get the details in the factory closer to the prototype than the other O Scale SD40-2 models.

The next choice is a Grand Trunk Western Blue, Red, and White SD40-2.

I wonder if Rich Trowbridge would order a GTW SD40-2 with TMCC, or he would think they are too expensive.

Andrew

Matt Makens posted:

The real Zito yellow doesnt look too bad but some of the model manuafactures do some terrible color matching and the models looks awful.

True, but with the models, two years from now they will still be yellow instead of white with a yellow tint. Just spray dust-colored paint over them and they'll all look just like Zito yellow after two years of various levels of fading.  

Could I get an explanation of the trains these guys make? I am hoping an owner of their trains could chime in. I understand it's more pricey and has superior details. Looks like these will be ABS plastic, I always thought all they made were die-cast or brass.

I also couldn't figure out what the suggestion is for. Is that how someone would get multiple road numbers like the member above my post saying 2 Kodachromes reserved or is it for something really custom like a specific road number or something odd? Am I missing anything else? I am obviously not an owner of their trains and don't want to take a leap into the unknown if I put in a reservation without some research.

Thanks

elementdude195 posted:

Could I get an explanation of the trains these guys make? I am hoping an owner of their trains could chime in. I understand it's more pricey and has superior details. Looks like these will be ABS plastic, I always thought all they made were die-cast or brass.

I also couldn't figure out what the suggestion is for. Is that how someone would get multiple road numbers like the member above my post saying 2 Kodachromes reserved or is it for something really custom like a specific road number or something odd? Am I missing anything else? I am obviously not an owner of their trains and don't want to take a leap into the unknown if I put in a reservation without some research.

Thanks

This is my attempt to answer the question regarding details.

The latest 3rd rail diesel offerings have all been ABS plastic with lots of separately applied brass detail parts. What sets these diesels apart from the main stream manufacturers is, all the road specific details, the horizontal drive system which is much better and stronger then China drive. This also allows room for a fully detailed hand painted cab interior. Most other manufacturers have the vertical can motor sticking right up through the cab, put an engineer figure in and call it a day. In 3rd rail models the motor isn't near the cab but it's right above the fuel tank, allowing room for a full sized cab interior.

Fully sprung brass and metal trucks, And lastly fixed pilots with full length hand rails on all the models. Hope this helps. I can post pics of my 3rd rail E7 later when I'm home. For me... Those details plus the drive system are worth (in my own oppinion) the higher price. 

If your more art, history, and detail driven in your model train purchases I would try a 3rd rail model. I hope this helps a little bit. Regarding your first sentences asking about abs bodies and detail.

David

This is very exciting. About a year or so ago, I emailed Scott with this suggestion and he quite forthrightly said they were coming and to watch for an announcement. I'll be in for two or three Santa Fe yellow and blues for sure (and am tempted by other western roads, but we'll see...). I think all Santa Fe fans would like to see the rooftop details--AC, antennas and the like. I also think all the ATSF SD40-2s were delivered with these, so unlike some other models, such as the GP35, SD40 or SD45, I think there is no era in which a Santa Fe SD40-2 model would be correct without these features. I certainly would expect them on a Sunset model. Here are 90s era rooftop details added to an Atlas SD40:

011

A more subtle issue involves little changes to these models over their ATSF service life. The classification lights you see in pictures people posted above were removed and plated over by the early 90s (my era), headlights and horns were relocated, and strobes removed. So there are little detail variations depending on whether a model is depicted circa 1983 versus, say 1993, or even 1995.

Thanks again, Scott for offering these.

RM

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I always hear that from 2 rail guys when you start talking about accuracy and detail on a 3 rail model. They don't understand the acceptance of the third rial. N scale is a throw back to when I was a kid and lived in a 3 bedroom house with 5 brothers. If I wanted to have a train it had to fit under the bed so 3 by 6 feet was my max. I got rid of a lot of it but I have an affinity for the Kato passenger trains. I have most of the good ones plus some TGV sets and Japanese Shinkansen sets. Its hard to see but its a lot of fun to upgrade them with sound decoders. I always like figuring out how to fit it all in the tiny little shell.

Last edited by Former Member
645 posted:
elementdude195 posted:

Could I get an explanation of the trains these guys make? I am hoping an owner of their trains could chime in. I understand it's more pricey and has superior details. Looks like these will be ABS plastic, I always thought all they made were die-cast or brass.

I also couldn't figure out what the suggestion is for. Is that how someone would get multiple road numbers like the member above my post saying 2 Kodachromes reserved or is it for something really custom like a specific road number or something odd? Am I missing anything else? I am obviously not an owner of their trains and don't want to take a leap into the unknown if I put in a reservation without some research.

Thanks

These SD40-2's (and most other 3rd Rail diesel locomotive and passenger car offerings) should be highly detailed ABS plastic. I believe the 3rd Rail steam locomotives are brass.

As for suggestions it is exactly what it sounds like. Rather than announce certain road names with no flexibility 3rd Rail has elected to go with the popular vote here - roadnames not part of the official announcement but requested / reserved / pre-ordered will be made *IF* enough reservations are received for same. "Suggestion" is not really the proper word here as that won't mean it will be produced. What counts here is a pre-order / reservation such as "I will buy two of 'Railroad X' in this paint scheme."

Using the Santa Fe Kodachrome scheme already mentioned in this thread as an example here is how it works. Someone suggested it. Fine, but that is not a pre-order / reservation. Now if someone orders say (2) of them using the 'suggestion' area on the order form that counts as a vote to produce it. Now for the tricky part - there has to be enough orders to go ahead with production of a particular roadname. If 3rd Rail only gets orders for (2) Kodachrome SD40-2's they will not be produced. Based on past discussions about previous 3rd Rail diesels I believe at least (20) of a particular paint scheme need to be ordered to get it on the production schedule but the minimum quantity required is known only to 3rd Rail unless they choose to put the number out here.

Muddying the waters here is in the case of the Chicago & North Western SD40-2 is that there are three different paint schemes: 1970's Traditional Yellow, 1980's Safety/Zito Yellow and 1990's Traditional Yellow. There is also a 'Falcon Service' variation (2 units) of the 1970's Traditional Yellow and an 'Operation Lifesaver' version of the 1990's Traditional Yellow too. Both could be offered since it is a variation of the basic paint scheme where only additional graphics are needed. Anyway, there could be over twenty people who want to order a CNW SD40-2 but then question is how many want which paint scheme? If only one person wants 1980's Safety/Zito Yellow but eighteen want 1970's Traditional Yellow it is obvious which one will be produced. If a "tie" as in ten of each then I don't know how 3rd Rail handles that situation - could do both if factory agrees to it, choose one over the other or contact all who pre-ordered one explaining the situation asking for votes/changes to tip the scales in favor of one scheme?

Hope this helps as I experienced some of this stuff when I was reserving some of 3rd Rail's E8/E9 models earlier this year.

Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:
elementdude195 posted:

Could I get an explanation of the trains these guys make? I am hoping an owner of their trains could chime in. I understand it's more pricey and has superior details. Looks like these will be ABS plastic, I always thought all they made were die-cast or brass.

I also couldn't figure out what the suggestion is for. Is that how someone would get multiple road numbers like the member above my post saying 2 Kodachromes reserved or is it for something really custom like a specific road number or something odd? Am I missing anything else? I am obviously not an owner of their trains and don't want to take a leap into the unknown if I put in a reservation without some research.

Thanks

This is my attempt to answer the question regarding details.

The latest 3rd rail diesel offerings have all been ABS plastic with lots of separately applied brass detail parts. What sets these diesels apart from the main stream manufacturers is, all the road specific details, the horizontal drive system which is much better and stronger then China drive. This also allows room for a fully detailed hand painted cab interior. Most other manufacturers have the vertical can motor sticking right up through the cab, put an engineer figure in and call it a day. In 3rd rail models the motor isn't near the cab but it's right above the fuel tank, allowing room for a full sized cab interior.

Fully sprung brass and metal trucks, And lastly fixed pilots with full length hand rails on all the models. Hope this helps. I can post pics of my 3rd rail E7 later when I'm home. For me... Those details plus the drive system are worth (in my own oppinion) the higher price. 

If your more art, history, and detail driven in your model train purchases I would try a 3rd rail model. I hope this helps a little bit. Regarding your first sentences asking about abs bodies and detail.

David

Thank you for the replies. Need clarification if I do end up say buying two of the same railroads does Sunset guys give me different road numbers automatically? Also, when announced units are ordered and that special instruction field is filled out it counts as an order for two units even though the suggestion may not be considered. Correct? 

elementdude195 posted:
645 posted:
elementdude195 posted:

Could I get an explanation of the trains these guys make? I am hoping an owner of their trains could chime in. I understand it's more pricey and has superior details. Looks like these will be ABS plastic, I always thought all they made were die-cast or brass.

I also couldn't figure out what the suggestion is for. Is that how someone would get multiple road numbers like the member above my post saying 2 Kodachromes reserved or is it for something really custom like a specific road number or something odd? Am I missing anything else? I am obviously not an owner of their trains and don't want to take a leap into the unknown if I put in a reservation without some research.

Thanks

These SD40-2's (and most other 3rd Rail diesel locomotive and passenger car offerings) should be highly detailed ABS plastic. I believe the 3rd Rail steam locomotives are brass.

As for suggestions it is exactly what it sounds like. Rather than announce certain road names with no flexibility 3rd Rail has elected to go with the popular vote here - roadnames not part of the official announcement but requested / reserved / pre-ordered will be made *IF* enough reservations are received for same. "Suggestion" is not really the proper word here as that won't mean it will be produced. What counts here is a pre-order / reservation such as "I will buy two of 'Railroad X' in this paint scheme."

Using the Santa Fe Kodachrome scheme already mentioned in this thread as an example here is how it works. Someone suggested it. Fine, but that is not a pre-order / reservation. Now if someone orders say (2) of them using the 'suggestion' area on the order form that counts as a vote to produce it. Now for the tricky part - there has to be enough orders to go ahead with production of a particular roadname. If 3rd Rail only gets orders for (2) Kodachrome SD40-2's they will not be produced. Based on past discussions about previous 3rd Rail diesels I believe at least (20) of a particular paint scheme need to be ordered to get it on the production schedule but the minimum quantity required is known only to 3rd Rail unless they choose to put the number out here.

Muddying the waters here is in the case of the Chicago & North Western SD40-2 is that there are three different paint schemes: 1970's Traditional Yellow, 1980's Safety/Zito Yellow and 1990's Traditional Yellow. There is also a 'Falcon Service' variation (2 units) of the 1970's Traditional Yellow and an 'Operation Lifesaver' version of the 1990's Traditional Yellow too. Both could be offered since it is a variation of the basic paint scheme where only additional graphics are needed. Anyway, there could be over twenty people who want to order a CNW SD40-2 but then question is how many want which paint scheme? If only one person wants 1980's Safety/Zito Yellow but eighteen want 1970's Traditional Yellow it is obvious which one will be produced. If a "tie" as in ten of each then I don't know how 3rd Rail handles that situation - could do both if factory agrees to it, choose one over the other or contact all who pre-ordered one explaining the situation asking for votes/changes to tip the scales in favor of one scheme?

Hope this helps as I experienced some of this stuff when I was reserving some of 3rd Rail's E8/E9 models earlier this year.

Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:
elementdude195 posted:

Could I get an explanation of the trains these guys make? I am hoping an owner of their trains could chime in. I understand it's more pricey and has superior details. Looks like these will be ABS plastic, I always thought all they made were die-cast or brass.

I also couldn't figure out what the suggestion is for. Is that how someone would get multiple road numbers like the member above my post saying 2 Kodachromes reserved or is it for something really custom like a specific road number or something odd? Am I missing anything else? I am obviously not an owner of their trains and don't want to take a leap into the unknown if I put in a reservation without some research.

Thanks

This is my attempt to answer the question regarding details.

The latest 3rd rail diesel offerings have all been ABS plastic with lots of separately applied brass detail parts. What sets these diesels apart from the main stream manufacturers is, all the road specific details, the horizontal drive system which is much better and stronger then China drive. This also allows room for a fully detailed hand painted cab interior. Most other manufacturers have the vertical can motor sticking right up through the cab, put an engineer figure in and call it a day. In 3rd rail models the motor isn't near the cab but it's right above the fuel tank, allowing room for a full sized cab interior.

Fully sprung brass and metal trucks, And lastly fixed pilots with full length hand rails on all the models. Hope this helps. I can post pics of my 3rd rail E7 later when I'm home. For me... Those details plus the drive system are worth (in my own oppinion) the higher price. 

If your more art, history, and detail driven in your model train purchases I would try a 3rd rail model. I hope this helps a little bit. Regarding your first sentences asking about abs bodies and detail.

David

Thank you for the replies. Need clarification if I do end up say buying two of the same railroads does Sunset guys give me different road numbers automatically? Also, when announced units are ordered and that special instruction field is filled out it counts as an order for two units even though the suggestion may not be considered. Correct? 

Yes if you order 2 of the same road name you will get 2 seperate cab numbers. The only time they don't do that is if the engine prototypically only has 1 or 2 cab numbers (example would be Pennsy 1 stripe green alco PA's. Only 2 were painted like that so only 2 cab numbers will be made.)

im not sure about the 2nd part of your question. If you order 2 engines of an announced road name. You will be invoiced for those engines shortly before they arrive. If they are not produced then your order will be cancelled. If you write in a suggestion (example 2 Cargill sd40-2's) and it's just you and like 1 other person who orders that road name. That's not enough to make that road name. But if they meet the minimum requirement; i.e. Enough ppl order Cargill sd40-2's, then your suggested engines will be produced. 

Matt Makens posted:

There is, you go to the 3RD Rail website and look at either the announcement page or the reservation page

The list that is shown is no gaurantee that any particular scheme will be produced.  It will be 6 months or so before the list becomes close to being finalized.  And even then...  It is quite fascinating to watch people whine that they missed the deadline and there are insufficient reservations for something and all of a sudden they want to reserve something. The Amtrak E8/9s had 6 reservations when that happened and within a couple weeks after the cancellation there were a total of 20 reservations.  It's magic I tell ya.

If you are looking for a list of those that already have sufficient reservations you would have to ask Scott,  who, OBW, is back in China inspecting the SD7/9s and S-12s for shipment from China; and other stuff.  

As of last week there were none that had met the minimum.

Matt Makens posted:

I know Matt, I'm being patient. I just let the dog off the chain there for a minute. I'm pretty excited to get em, they're my favorite engine. I'm also pretty stoked about the rest of the el cap coming too

I know. Just jerking your chain. I'm trying to figure out next years train budget as I'm leaning toward petitioning SD40-2's in CNW livery Zito "See it from Space" yellow would be nice, but I'll take 'em any way 3rd Rail does them if they get enough reservations. If next year's budget is bigger, I might order a pair in Santa Fe as well.

I like the traditional yellow especially the late versions with the Operation Life Saver logo. I'll take what I can get but since our hopes are hinged on the CNW matching some UP locos do Scott can use the same tooling I think late model versions and schemes are our best bet

Guys, on the E8/E9s we are good to go on most all roads listed as good to go. We will be negotiating the contract for this project next week. Also, will be discussing the possibility of SD40-2 high hood modifications to the tools.

Your enthusiasm and orders is what make these projects possible.

We've also been working with QSI on the 2 Rail sound system to have a dual speaker, true stereo Q3 system installed in the E8/E9s. For all models we will be using ball bearing supported journals for full transfer of power from the Canon motor and sprung as well in both 2 Rail and 3 Rail.

Once we have a contract signed we will send out reservation confirmations on the E8/E9s next week.

 

Cheers,

I have no dog in this fight, yet, but if I decide to pull the trigger on these engines it will be for the traditional C&NW colors, (Apple Green and Stagecoach yellow) NOT the Zito Yellow.

I’m with Matt, its nice to get anything in C&NW, but the original yellow and green are so much nicer then the other options/variations that were used through the later years.

Obviously I only have a say if I pay.

Charlie

Last edited by Charlie

I have two, brass, 3rd Rail, Dash-9's in Santa Fe War bonnet colors; one of them used to reside in a display case in our condo living room until we sold the place; I wanted it where I could see it's beautiful paint scheme and details, every time I walked past it!  I am still in awe of both qualities but should have ordered the second one in BNSF lettering; oh well, guess I'm stuck with it/them!  I bought them because they were brass and super detailed; I am still on the fence about buying this new plastic-bodied diesel for about what I paid for each of my brass models. 

Ron Balderrama posted:

I have two, brass, 3rd Rail, Dash-9's in Santa Fe War bonnet colors; one of them used to reside in a display case in our condo living room until we sold the place; I wanted it where I could see it's beautiful paint scheme and details, every time I walked past it!  I am still in awe of both qualities but should have ordered the second one in BNSF lettering; oh well, guess I'm stuck with it/them!  I bought them because they were brass and super detailed; I am still on the fence about buying this new plastic-bodied diesel for about what I paid for each of my brass models. 

Scotts SD40-2s should be a very highly detailed model, JMO but the 3rd Rail GE-9s were a very plain model with minimal detail, the best thing about them was that they were built in brass and available in both 2 and 3 rail versions I don't know how well they run but I have seen them at shows over the years going for 400 +/-.

I do not want the black and orange CN with GTW reporting marks. I would rather have a GTW blue and red SD40-2.

How many other people would order the Grand Trunk Western blue repaint of one these former MP SD40-2 locos? 

The CN management only purchased yellow reflective striping, so the white side-sill was covered by the yellow reflective tape.

IMG_0059

 

Andrew

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It would be nice if it was just canceled and removed from the website. I have two reserved (MP and Frisco) but if canceled, I can redirect my $ (reservation/obligation) to another project to help reach a minimum. Many of us have only so much $ available. So many nice models offered but not all get to production thresholds. 

I would be willing to get a different road name if it would help push one over the limit.

I ordered the Wheeling and Lake Erie in 3-rail, but I’d also be interested in  Conrail, CSX, and BN in that order, with a strong preference for Conrail.

It really surprises me these aren’t more popular since to my knowledge an accurate -2 has never been done in O scale.

@SPSF posted:

Do you want W&LE or Conrail?  Both are in that list.

I want W&LE.  However, someone mentioned that not enough reservations were received for some roads to trigger Scott to actually do the run of -2s.

I was offering to change my reservation if say W&LE already had more than enough orders, and say Conrail, CSX, and/or GN did not.  I'm not sure where that person got the info about which roads do not have enough orders, but if it was made known to everyone, maybe we could get them made by adjusting the orders with peoples 2nd or 3rd choices.

Last edited by rplst8

This has been on offer for quite some time and Is obviously stalled. I’m guessing there’s a Total Number Needed but Also a total number of each road needed.
Help us Scott !!! What are the laggards that can be dropped ???? The laggards get counted to the total but if we can switch to a “passing” road then the  number can stay level. It a number juggle thing. Others can double their single res.
I’ve MP and Frisco reserved. If Frisco is a laggard, let me know and I’ll switch that reservation to a second MP.

I wouldn't be as concerned with number of reservations per road quite yet.  Reserve the road you want.  The ultimate question is the total number of units.  Scott makes a call on how low he is willing to go on a specific road name to make the total project go.

It took 5 years to get the Amfleet project to go forward, so don't give up hope.  If you are on the fence to order a unit go ahead and place your pre-order.  Once the reservations start to show a sign of life, the project can then go into formal design.  

@catnap posted:

I have 2 reserved. If the price was $900 (same as the Dash 9) I would still be in for 2. If the price increased, would that mean fewer reservations would be required? Of course, some may back out of their original reservation(s)if the price increased $150 per model. I think it’s currently at $750.

It’s currently at 730. I bet when priced, it was a bit higher than other models as it was anticipated to not draw that many reservations. A modest bump to 750 might help, prob won’t loose many subscribers, but won’t help those already watching their budgets. And Price increases don’t attract new buyers.

The problem is, with fewer models at a higher price, as demonstrated above, is that there are too many variations with insufficient reservations for each.  If there were 75+ reservations each for ATSF, UP, and BN then it would be very doable for ~$800 each.  But there are no more than about 10 reservations for any variation, most are about 5.  At 5-10 models per variation you probably looking at $1200-$1500 per model.

@rdunniii posted:

The problem is, with fewer models at a higher price, as demonstrated above, is that there are too many variations with insufficient reservations for each.  If there were 75+ reservations each for ATSF, UP, and BN then it would be very doable for ~$800 each.  But there are no more than about 10 reservations for any variation, most are about 5.  At 5-10 models per variation you probably looking at $1200-$1500 per model.

Well this is looking more and more like “Mission Impossible” with an unhappy ending. Perhaps there is just to many of these models out there for buyers to belly up with some serious bucks. Even for what for sure would be a superbly crafted model- it’s stalled and not even close to being launched. I’m not even sure it could launch after a 5 year waiting time frame.  
I’d love to see it but I don’t think it’s going to fly.  ☹️

@rdunniii posted:

The problem is, with fewer models at a higher price, as demonstrated above, is that there are too many variations with insufficient reservations for each.  If there were 75+ reservations each for ATSF, UP, and BN then it would be very doable for ~$800 each.  But there are no more than about 10 reservations for any variation, most are about 5.  At 5-10 models per variation you probably looking at $1200-$1500 per model.

I'd drop $2,500 for a pair of Wheeling & Lake Erie SD40-2's (2-rail DCC with ESU LokSound). Of course, I don't think anybody else would. 🤣

@rdunniii posted:

The problem is, with fewer models at a higher price, as demonstrated above, is that there are too many variations with insufficient reservations for each.  If there were 75+ reservations each for ATSF, UP, and BN then it would be very doable for ~$800 each.  But there are no more than about 10 reservations for any variation, most are about 5.  At 5-10 models per variation you probably looking at $1200-$1500 per model.

Really? C'mon Chessie peeps where you at? Don't make me go this alone I have 2 on order and that's about all I can do for a model that won't run on my curves and will sit on a shelf. Something smaller like the SW1 will see me order more.

Maybe if Scott didn't advertise every RR under the sun and did them in multiple runs with different road names each time he would get more orders for fewer road names. Just a thought...

Sounds like we need 250-300 reservations to make this fly at 750-800. There are 17 models offered so 16 each gets us to 275. Just saying. If 100 people buy 2 and another 75 buy 1 we get there. Just hypothetical of course.  That’s 175 buyers. Boy. These aren’t big numbers !!!!  And we are still having trouble getting there.
I think perhaps we have some Sunset models competing with other Sunset models for dollars. 🤔😣

@jonnyspeed posted:

If Scott didn't advertise every RR under the sun and did them in multiple runs with different road names each time he would get more orders for fewer road names. Just a thought...

Well, I'm not in the 40-2 hunt, but I doubt this would be acceptable to many of the O2R/O3R crowd who are passionate about wanting their personal favorite.

I keep thinking about....and waking up each morning feeling the effects of...the demographics of our group.  We ain't getting any younger.   Pandemics don't help.  Uncertainties about our near- and post-retirement finances in a changing world lead us to Maalox and aspirin, sometimes daily.  IOW, mortality is the hoofbeat behind us, getting louder in spite of our declining sense of hearing.

Scott undoubtedly has a lot on his platter, so to speak.  I'm sure he gets a lot of 'help' in laying out production plans for a myriad of models.  Heck, I have callouses on my knees from prostrating myself in groveling embarrassment before the man.  Second....even third...runs of models are not his normal modus operandi.... and they're seldom in quick succession anyway.  Some of us just hope our dreams will come true before our fire drops.  I'm in the upper end of the septuagenarian years.  I'm not sure I'd enjoy waiting for re-run #2...or more so #3...just to keep my reservation and enthusiasm...and heartbeat...going a tad longer.  And, with a bunch of other steam/diesel/electric/passenger train projects under consideration in between, those could be lengthy waits.  Or, let's do multiple runs of the same engine in quick succession...and push the other dreams off into the sunset a bit longer!?  Oof with a woof!

Besides, if we're adamant about a very specific paint scheme, detailed variant, smaller flag, third/fourth owner shortline version, what are the chances of EVER getting that minimum number of interested (less-passionate) buyers to hit a minimum doable quantity?...especially as time ticks on??

Lastly, here's another perspective that can really cause insomnia!..   If you...like me...always thought that Mike Wolf was a "kid"...Mike: The young Giant Slayer!...(seems like only 'yesterday' he began his career from his family home!)....and now he wants a well-deserved retirement!?!?!...    Can Scott Mann be far behind?

Waiting?  Multiple runs??  "Take a number!"?.....

Charliebrown aaugh

Tick....tock....tick...tock...tick...tock...

Just a thought...

KD

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Last edited by dkdkrd
@rheil posted:

Ken,  Scott and I talked about his retirement on Sunday. I don't see that happening for quite some time yet with the proviso that the Orientals are willing to produce trains. There are very few similarities between Scott and Mike Wolf and how their businesses are run.

R. Heil   Sunset / 3rd Rail / Golden Gate Depot

Glad Scott plans on being around - delivering great models. 🤗🙂🙃. He just needs to have enough of us Stay around and commit enough reservations to launch new products. 😬. Seriously - great product truly appreciated. 👍👍

"Can Scott Mann be far behind?"  Short answer... No.

Long Answer: As long as customers ask us to make models, and we get enough orders, then I will continue to make model trains.

I don't know what I would do with myself if I wasn't working on something. For me, this is my hobby, running the business, reviewing the designs, traveling and checking production, interacting with interesting and interested customers at the shows. Getting a little golf in with the factory guys.

I get up early, 2- 3 AM most days and chat with Korea and China (end of their day), answer emails and maybe go back to sleep for a few more hours. I work with the office (remotely for now), coming in on their off days.

I don't wake early because I have to. I have always been an early bird. I love driving around town with no one out except me and the animals. I see Deer, Skunks, Raccoons, Owls... I have to drive more cautiously at that time because the deer tend to jump out from the bushes when they see my lights.

Before COVID, I traveled extensively to Korea, China and Europe (When we make European models), and Chicago and the East Coast (York). And I am the biggest white knuckle flyer you ever met, but I still traveled. That part of the business is gravy for the soul. To be able to pat the guys that make this stuff on the back, hold production models, make small corrections and changes with eager smiles from the workers. Everyone is invested emotionally. How could I walk away from that.

As time goes on I feel obligated to keep going to help those that make the designs, tooling and models, work at our office, print the magazines, all trying to make a living at it. We all have pledged to help each other in business, and so I feel the same obligation.

Dad was the same way. He came to work even during his Chemo at 75 years old, most every day. He was pretty tired most of that time. He passed away at 78, leaving me to run the business. I remember walking around the office early in the morning, before anyone was there. I could hear his voice, words of advise. Things I already knew, but we had rehashed over and over during our 10 years working together almost every day. He too loved running the business.

So that's the long answer. I am here to stay, as long as I have support from the factories, customers and a little luck.

BTW: Would you guys be mad if I dropped the SD40-2 for something more popular? After all this time we only have 190 reservations, only 1/2 of what is needed.  What could the new diesel be that many want?

Scott Mann

@sdmann posted:

BTW: Would you guys be mad if I dropped the SD40-2 for something more popular? After all this time we only have 190 reservations, only 1/2 of what is needed.  What could the new diesel be that many want?

Scott Mann

Scott, I love what you and your team do for the hobby. Thank you.

I'd like to offer a suggestion:

When you make an announcement and list it on your website add a "counter board" on each project that clearly shows your minimum requirement and an updating tally of FIRM reservations.  Also Include a project "expiration date".

1.) I believe this simple communication will go a long way to settle things for all interested parties.

2.) It will serve as both motivation and a reality check for us modelers who want a particular prototype made.

3.) It should also allow you to be more responsive to your customers.  Creating an opportunity to make even more announcements, testing the interest for each, and more nimbly adjusting to revenue generating preferences.

I hope you consider it.

Thanks again.

- Will

Last edited by WITZ 41
@sdmann posted:

"Can Scott Mann be far behind?"  Short answer... No.

Long Answer: As long as customers ask us to make models, and we get enough orders, then I will continue to make model trains.

I don't know what I would do with myself if I wasn't working on something. For me, this is my hobby, running the business, reviewing the designs, traveling and checking production, interacting with interesting and interested customers at the shows. Getting a little golf in with the factory guys.

I get up early, 2- 3 AM most days and chat with Korea and China (end of their day), answer emails and maybe go back to sleep for a few more hours. I work with the office (remotely for now), coming in on their off days.

I don't wake early because I have to. I have always been an early bird. I love driving around town with no one out except me and the animals. I see Deer, Skunks, Raccoons, Owls... I have to drive more cautiously at that time because the deer tend to jump out from the bushes when they see my lights.

Before COVID, I traveled extensively to Korea, China and Europe (When we make European models), and Chicago and the East Coast (York). And I am the biggest white knuckle flyer you ever met, but I still traveled. That part of the business is gravy for the soul. To be able to pat the guys that make this stuff on the back, hold production models, make small corrections and changes with eager smiles from the workers. Everyone is invested emotionally. How could I walk away from that.

As time goes on I feel obligated to keep going to help those that make the designs, tooling and models, work at our office, print the magazines, all trying to make a living at it. We all have pledged to help each other in business, and so I feel the same obligation.

Dad was the same way. He came to work even during his Chemo at 75 years old, most every day. He was pretty tired most of that time. He passed away at 78, leaving me to run the business. I remember walking around the office early in the morning, before anyone was there. I could hear his voice, words of advise. Things I already knew, but we had rehashed over and over during our 10 years working together almost every day. He too loved running the business.

So that's the long answer. I am here to stay, as long as I have support from the factories, customers and a little luck.

BTW: Would you guys be mad if I dropped the SD40-2 for something more popular? After all this time we only have 190 reservations, only 1/2 of what is needed.  What could the new diesel be that many want?

Scott Mann

We're happy to read you will be around! For myself, I plan to keep purchasing your offerings not only because they are top-notch, but because you are great to work with. Also, it is a bonus to be able to conduct business with friends.

I like the idea of an SD40-2 run, but at half, maybe something like the Siemens Charger would get more interest? I'd also love to see the SD70ACe-T4 made.

Chris

Last edited by vash44

Well, way back when, I suggested a GP40-2 might do better, but probably not much better.  We've also discussed the new Amtrak Chargers, to go along with the Amfleet and Viewliner cars but that got zero interest.  I don't think the Dash 9s or E60s will fare much better, but I hope I am wrong, I could use several Dash9 chassis for my MTH/Lionel ES44s.  This is good for my finances.  It's also why Midwestern has a bucketload of my reservations.  

Hey Scott: Got the new LED lights you sent and already installed, they do look nice and the "flicker free" feature is very  much welcomed.

As for the SD40-2, yes, drop the project. As was mentioned above, having too many projects might be mudding up the waters in terms of reservations.

I have no opinion on what makes a project popular or not, (I would have thought the SD40-2 was a pretty sure bet) but it might be time to dust off some of the old models and dare I say, start to remake some of the more popular choices.

From a business point of view, Chevy did not stop making Corvettes because they feed the demand. Improvements were made, new customers entered the market and technology marched on.

In your case, many of your iconic models are more than 20 years old. New customers, new technology and quite frankly, very limited product is available on the secondary market. You and your staff can figure out what might be a good project based on past numbers, current secondary market availability and how new technology and manufacturing techniques might bring an old(er) project to market that would be in demand.

Charlie

Scott,

As I mentioned in an email a few weeks ago, with the impending closure of MTH, I'm looking to your company for my future purchases. I've previously suggested the New York Central K-Class Pacific in this thread and would also be interested in small steam engines such as a 2-6-0 and 4-6-0 (maybe even generic) if they are economically feasible. As for diesels, I prefer the smaller ones such as the GP7/9 and F3, which I already have on order. Continued best wishes for success to you and Sunset...

MELGAR

I will add my (2) cents.

I am pretty much thru with buying any new Lionel engines, steam or diesel. I am frankly tired of hoping for a model that is not broken or not working out of the box. 7 out of my last 10 Lionel engines had to go in for warranty work immediately or got sent back to the supplier. With MTH gone and Atlas back orders 3 years and waiting.......

I only plan to purchase 3rd Rail products from now on. That being said, I feel the price equals the quality.

Donald

@EMD posted:

Hi Scott,

With 190 reservations, what would the SD40-2 have to cost to have a production run?

For an estimate take $200K (that's the minimum for one or a thousand) and divide it by the number of models. So for 200 models $1K each.  And that's for 2020.  The Chinese government will give workers their 10-20% raise next year so next year it will be $220K or more.

And oh, for those I know are thinking it, that minimum for making them in the US is ~$500K in 2020.  Scott has already tried that route.

hmmmm what to ask for in place of the sd40-2? maybe something to go with those beautiful misouri pacific cars he is issuing. along with the other roads using like santafe, atlantic coast line, emd demonstrator, florida east coast, chicago & northwestern, rock island, union pacific. if not that, then something to go with the m&p cars he is issuing.

I saw somewhere in the thread we are just short of 200 reservations. I’ve a MP and a Frisco reserved. I’d up my MP to two to help get to Needed 275 numbers to get it to fly. 275 into 200,000 gets to  the 729$ current pricing.  250 reservations get to an 800 price point.  I could also double my Frisco too. If I’m a lonely Frisco fan I can switch the Frisco to SF.
ANYONE Else out there willing to make a final push ???????????
Can we Help Finally Make this a GO ?????
One last push ??? Or just pull the plug!!!!!!   Time to 👍 or 👎this offering.
If a no-go I’ll just realign my reservation “bux” into the Alco FA offering. Gotta get it moving too.
cheers !!! 🤗

Trainbub, I like your thinking

Scott,

Would it be worthwhile to see if existing reservation customers are interested in upping their reservation figure to make this project possible/worthwhile

Then maybe calculate a higher price

Just one last ditch effort to make this project a reality

Thanks for listening

Can we keep this thread on topic w/ 40-2s (please )

Ok folks. Final push time. To contribute to the push, I’ve doubled my MP and Frisco reservations to 2 each. We need 275 reservations to maintain the $729 price. I could go to $750 but not higher !

Scott.  Give it another month to see how this reactivated thread uptick Relates to total reservations. If we can’t get to the needed reservations, put it to bed and move on. I’ll move some Reservation money to increase my Alco FA Position.

cheers 🤗

I will simply state that this is what usually happens on any 3rd rail diesel these days.  There is this huge push to get to minimal reservations and then once it get produced those who didn't reserve ask for a second run once photos go up of the model.

In the past it was possible to do things like pilot models.  That is not today's reality.  So in as that horrible 80's song goes when it comes to pre-ordering, "You gotta have faith!"

I just can't quite justify going above two orders myself with current pre-ordrs.  Maybe I could go one more on a 3r ATSF one for a pair, but the 2 rail Conrail one I pre-orded is way out of my 2 rail modeling era.  Especially true now that I picked up an old Gem PRR F-3 Mogul detailed for the 1920's for my layout.

Pondering ...  the ATSF SD40-2 does go well with the 3r era I model at my club.... decisions, decisions.

It is silly to have the conversation in general for such an iconic locomotive that has never really been done well at this scale remotely close to this price point.

Well shoot, I'll add another one this weekend after I finish my current assignment for Scott.

Last edited by GG1 4877
@sdmann posted:

BTW: Would you guys be mad if I dropped the SD40-2 for something more popular? After all this time we only have 190 reservations, only 1/2 of what is needed.  What could the new diesel be that many want?

Well I’ll never buy another Sunset mod...

Just kidding.  😇

My feelings won’t be hurt.  However, could you please keep the option open in the future to try again?  Maybe when all the dust settles from the closing of MTH and people start changing their ordering behaviors.

As for what to replace it, I don’t have a good sense of the things you’ve offered before, so forgive me if these have been done recently.

1. GE C39-8 Conrail (humpbacks!)
2. GE U33C Conrail
3. GE U25C PRR or Conrail
4. GE U28C PRR or Conrail
5. GE U23B Conrail
6. GE U30C PRR or Conrail (already done by MTH)
7. GE U25B PRR or Conrail (already done by MTH)

@rplst8 posted:

Agree!  If we can't get enough orders for this, how can anything get made?

Maybe we just have to educate everyone on just how bad the other SD40-2 offerings are!

Well I’ve 2 MTH MP units - one powered one dummy. They are decent though sit Way to high which I hate. The dummy is a steal though. If the SS SD40-2s take off, these old ones hit eBay to help fund my reservations. 😬

cheers

@rplst8 posted:

Agree!  If we can't get enough orders for this, how can anything get made?

Maybe we just have to educate everyone on just how bad the other SD40-2 offerings are!

2R models have more reservations from what I understand. Makes sense as Lionel has done SD40 and SD40-2, Atlas has done SD40, and MTH has done SD40-2 in 3R. I doubt that the majority of 3Rers care or even know the difference between a 40 and a 40-2. The only RTR 2R SD40-2 that I'm aware of is the MTH which is Proto 3/2 capable, but requires you to fix the pilots and extend the handrails yourself. The 3rd Rail model is much more in line with what 2R modelers are looking for. The reality is that the MOQ requirements seem to be going up and without good orders from 3R and 2R these projects don't get done. My guess is that it is too modern. Seem like the transition era still sells the best. And yes, I know the Dash 9 was announced but I'll believe that when I see them arrive.

@jonnyspeed posted:

2R models have more reservations from what I understand. Makes sense as Lionel has done SD40 and SD40-2, Atlas has done SD40, and MTH has done SD40-2 in 3R. I doubt that the majority of 3Rers care or even know the difference between a 40 and a 40-2. The only RTR 2R SD40-2 that I'm aware of is the MTH which is Proto 3/2 capable, but requires you to fix the pilots and extend the handrails yourself. The 3rd Rail model is much more in line with what 2R modelers are looking for. The reality is that the MOQ requirements seem to be going up and without good orders from 3R and 2R these projects don't get done. My guess is that it is too modern. Seem like the transition era still sells the best. And yes, I know the Dash 9 was announced but I'll believe that when I see them arrive.

I have the MTH SD40-2s.  They are ok but to tall and couplers are monsters. To bad MTH never upgraded the model. They did a nice job on their U30C. I have - with scale wheels and fixed Pilot. Sweet. Swapped wheels to “hi-rail” wheels to best navigate Ross turnouts.

It would be great to get the SS model off the ground. We need a top quality model of the SD40-2.

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