A Frustrating Purchase - Am I expecting too much or too much of a perfectionists?

@Ted S posted:

@bmoran4 since everyone is stirred up, why not post the "reasonable pictures" provided by the seller, and your own pics illustrating the actual condition?  Then we can have an informed discussion.

The one I'm most curious about is the holes drilled in the boiler face.  I have a '46 726 in my own repair queue.  So photos of the other defects you found will give me clues about what to look for.  Thanks!

This exactly, hard to judge anything without.

@phrankenstign posted:

It's difficult to give you a good answer since you didn't provide the actual ad w/photos along with any questions you may have asked.  If all of the pictures were clear, and the seller answered your questions honestly, then you have nothing to complain about.  Did you ask the seller about the packaging to be used?  If not, then I don't think you can complain about the shipping damage.  In my experience, sellers will usually use the cheapest packaging they can.  Many times that is inadequate to prevent damage.  If the buyer wants to make sure there is no damage to the item(s), then the buyer needs to agree on a price for reasonably adequate packaging along with the option of paying for insurance to cover extraordinary circumstances.  BOTTOM LINE: If the seller was 100% honest in his description, answers to questions, and photos, then there is nothing you should complain about.  If the seller lied, forged or passed off items of similar items without stating so, then I think you have a valid complaint to justify asking for a refund including shipping costs.

Uh, not sure how packaging is the buyers responsibility.  If you agree to ship someone to someone, you are in effect agreeing that it will be properly packaged in such a way it arrives as it was supposed to.  This is certainly the way eBay, PayPal, and most companies look at it.  Also if there is insurance on a shipped package, the sender is the one who purchases this and handles the issue with the shipping company be they USPS, UPS, or FedEx.

@gmorlitz posted:

Yes, but it gets worse. Wait until people start calling you "sir".

Gerry

Uh oh. 

I called him Sir... and Hot Water... and most everyone I respect.... hmmm, and even some I don't! 

I recently had to return an (lionel legacy steam) engine bought on ebay. I was overly excited to find the engine for a good price and it was listed as NIB. The original shipper was shown in the listing. Adding to my excitement, this was going to be my first legacy engine(!).  

Everything looked good when I received the package and took it out of the shipper. It was only when I opened the box that my heart was broken. Only the engine was there... no tender. I felt foolish for getting my hopes up. 

I contacted the seller right away and found out that he was selling his deceased brother-in-laws trains and really didn't know anything about them. It was an honest mistake; he was super friendly and straightforward about it. He even looked to see if he could find the tender. In the meantime, I placed the engine on the track just to inspect it and make sure it was in the condition that it was advertised as being. When running just the engine, I noticed that the motor was much noisier than I thought it should be. As I mentioned, this was my first legacy engine so I didn't know a lot about how engines of this quality should preform, but it didn't seem right. A few forum members were kind enough to share their advice and thus I returned the engine all together. 

My key point: Am I a perfectionist? No, but when money is tight, I'd rather make sure that an $500+ engine  performs the way that a $500+ engine should. Since the seller didn't know to include a tender, it was fair to believe that he didn't really know if it was NIB. Even if he found the tender, I didn't want to deal with any other hidden issues that a 'NIB' engine typically wouldn't have (well, pre-2016 Lionel engines of course ). While I recognize that Lionel products are sometimes prone to needing repairs right-out-of-the-box, the missing tender was a huge red flag that the seller really didn't know what he was dealing with. The seller was very accommodating and made the return easy. 

Overall, the experience taught me that I should ask sellers for a video of the engine running if possible before bidding/buying to make sure the engine functions the way it should per the listing. 

I think this is an excellent example of how valuable the TCA ratings are. If sellers would adhere to them, whether they belong to the club or not, much misunderstanding and unhappiness would be avoided. Unfortunately, many sellers on Ebay do not list their items under these ratings nor subscribe to them. 

@TexasSP posted:

Uh, not sure how packaging is the buyers responsibility.  If you agree to ship someone to someone, you are in effect agreeing that it will be properly packaged in such a way it arrives as it was supposed to.

The problem is the seller usually wants to use the cheapest packaging possible.  Many are willing to take a chance using flimsy packaging in the belief most buyers won't want to go through the trouble of complaining and trying to get a refund---especially when there is only minor damage.  As a buyer, I'd want absolutely NO damage compared to how the item is shown in the ad.  When it's very important to me that an item arrives without shipping damage, I'll ask the seller how they plan on packaging it.  If I find that unacceptable, I may tell the seller I'm willing to pay an additional amount to pay for packaging materials of my choice.  If they won't agree, then I don't buy from them.

It's important to realize not everyone has the collector mentality.  Sellers who don't, won't understand why buyers complain when the item's box is damaged even though the item is pristine.  If the original box is valued, then the buyer should advise the seller to make sure the shipping container provides adequate protection for that original box.

A buyer doesn't have to accept responsibility for the packaging, but that raises the risk considerably for receiving items with unacceptable damage.

I bought a RailKing NW2 in Seaboard paint from Jim Sutter years ago.  Beautiful engine but when I got it it wouldn't run or run for long.  Found a pinched wire that was causing a short to the frame.  Was that Jim's fault, NO.  Did I expect him to fix it, NO.  Did I return it for a refund, NO.  I fixed the dang thing myself in about 20 minutes.  He simply had something I wanted at a good price, picked it from the shelf and shipped it to my address promptly.  I seriously doubt he (or most any seller) has the time to conduct a thorough examination prior to shipping.  I would charge extra if someone asked me to open an engine and check it before shipping.  I would hope they would at least put it on a test track and turn it on but I doubt that happans very often either.  I'm not sure I believe the manufacturers when they say they test everything.

I also bought an Atlas F3 for a great price on Ebay, seller said it didn't run.  Found a single wire that was broken, again fixed it myself.

Most of the problems I've had have been minor electrical issues.  If you can't solder/reconnect a wire, this is not the hobby you need to be in.  If the issue is with the exterior being damaged, see if the seller will replace the broken piece, no need to send it back, or even have the seller provide some compensation like a percentage of the selling price equal to the damage.  Or...fix it yourself.  This is why I don't sell any of my stuff, I would detest having to deal with people whining about their toys.

"I seriously doubt he (or most any seller) has the time to conduct a thorough examination prior to shipping. " posted by Bob Delbridge

 For most sellers I would say that is true, but I know of at least one that claims he takes engines apart, cleans, inspects parts, replaces parts when needed and finally tests the item. He also stands behind his products. When I did have a problem, he once gave me a better grade item at no extra charge.

  A popular auction site which I won't name can be hit or miss, but should a seller not represent an item correctly or it doesn't work, you get your money back and the return shipping is free.

First off, after reading the litany of issues you describe in the first post, I have to wonder why you're keeping it. Given the fact that you're keeping it without a whimper, one wonders why you wouldn't immediately demand a full credit for it. As to if you're expecting too much, the answer is probably yes. You are not doing anything to require restitution from the seller, so you must be satisfied enough with the purchase. Given that you're simply going to keep it, what is the point of the whole thread?

@gunrunnerjohn, Yes, there is a laundry list of unexpected issues, but lets face it - none of them are irreversible and return shipping is also a hassle. I guess I am in a rather unique position where I have quite the stock of parts and so with exception of a boiler face (which I have already sourced), I can make it correct and complete. There is also the matter of packaging it and return shipping costs and logistics which actually costs more than the boiler face. Sure, I've consumed some of my stocked parts, but isn't that why I have them? Bottom line, I don't think the seller was being intentionally malicious and so I won't rat them out, post their pictures or anything like that.

As for the boiler face that many were concerned about, here is a picture showing the three holes at the bottom and the drilled out "rivet" that held the small screw bulb socket for the later 726/736.

Sure, arguments could be made that I should have been able to see all the details in the pictures to see all the issues, but I too have to admit that I am imperfect and unless one is actually focusing on it, it could easily pass by anyone, especially when it isn't in your hands.

Getting back to @gunrunnerjohn, as to why make this post if I already decided to keep it? At the time I was just flabbergasted and probably needed to vent a bit and do a sanity check to see if this was the accepted normal? it was kind of akin to going back to the dealership after 12 years to replace my model ABC with a new ABC only to find it no longer comes with a manual transmission, beeps at everything on the road, doesn't have a oil dip stick, and if there is a gauge it is without a numeric scale and so on...

Moran,

I think Gunrunner nailed it.

And further, it wasn't your intent to receive a fix-up, restoration project, and unfortunately that is what you got.

Send it back and be happy.

Mannyrock