Announcing the DCS PC and mobile device interface

Marty,

Thanks for stopping by and checking out the system.  I'm sorry you didn't get to spend more time with it.  We had a lot of people stop by the booth and it was difficult to give everyone adequate attention.

I want to say thank you to everyone who took the plunge and ran trains with us at York.  For those familiar with York, we were able to reliably run the layout from the Ross and OGR booths about 100 feet away.  I think a few people took advantage of the range to "take over" and blow the horn when we weren't looking.

Joe K,

We look forward to getting you set up.

Thanks.

Flash,

Yes, the system will connect with TMCC and Legacy command bases without going through DCS.  You can only operate TMCC commands, not the proprietary Legacy commands.

That's an excellent idea Dave.  Thank you.

RR&Co. Train Controller already has a limited message capability designed to send messages from the dispatcher to the mobile devices.  Here's how that looks...

The SmartHand Manager (the web server for the mobile devices) allows you to select a mobile device, type a short message, and select from four support replies.  When you send the message the selected device pops up this screen...

Once you press a response (yes or no) the reply is sent back to the dispatcher and the screen on the device returns to normal.

I think we can probably do something better with the app versions by piggybacking onto the text messaging.  You don't have to be connected to a phone network to send texts to a device on the same wi-fi network, so it might not be that difficult.

This is exactly what my 4x10 garage layout needs!

Just kidding.  Obviously I don't need it, but I think using computers to control the layout is a fine idea.  When it comes to controlling the trains though, I prefer to have my hand upon an actual throttle rather than a tv remote or an ithang.

Pete

Hi Dave,

I was one of the first guys to try out your app on Thursday at York and probably wouldn't have known about it if I hadn't gone to the DCS User Group the night before. Having used an ipod touch for many years, I was still amazed how easy it was to get used to the train control on the ipad and your android phone (thanks). The potential of this software is incredible and will add a new level of operational interest to many of us train veterans not to mention the younger generation. I mentioned it to my app wizard 20 yr old son and he can hardly wait to try it out. I was struggling with the idea of a hard wired control panel for my new layout, now that problem has been solved with an ipad control panel and train control, the app should arrive by the time I'm ready to  go operational. Pretty exciting stuff for a 68 yr old........

Anyway thanks to Hikel & Co., your sponsor and Mike Wolf for moving this forward. Your explanations and diagrams here are very helpful in understanding the potential applications for our layouts.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the kind words.  I think you'll enjoy using the touch screens for layout control.  Just for clarity, the control panel feature will not be part of the stand alone apps.  For that, you will want to contact me about an automation package.  You don't have to put in all the detection just to control switches and accessories, but you will still need a computer running RR&Co. Train Controller to generate the control panel graphics and serve them to the iPads.

The next few years could be very interesting for layout control.  I use TMCC/Legacy and DCS almost equally so I really have no brand loyality.  Anyting I like I run.

Dave, I assume that to use RR&Co for layout control using an MTH AIU you will sell an addin or interface to make it work with MTH's proprietary commands system.

This leads to the question, what hardware do I intall now for command switch control, Lionel's SC-2/ASC or MTH's AIU?  If I install Lionel's hardware I can try anyones application and use the one that fits my needs the best.  Or use MTH's AIU and the only app available will be Hikel's (Dave your app looks very good, I just like choices).  That leads to the obvious answer, I will install Lionel's hardware, I can even write my own app if I want.  If MTH wants to sell hardware they may need to open up a little more.

Just a thought.

Dan

You hit that nail on the head!

Ed

Sounds like MTH is leaning towards the DCC side of things...So why not cut out all the propietory hardware and go with open source? Eliminate the middle men and go with DCC!

As far as I know MTH is only putting DCC in their engines, not the TIU or AIUs.  Also, I like to be able to use my Lionel or MTH remote I already have to be able to run engines or  quickly flip a switch. Going full DCC for switch control would require that I use another remote/tablet for control.

The Hikel's may currently be using DCC instead of an AIU to control the NWTL switches. It would be easy to do with RR&Co. I would like to see some articles as to how the Hikel's have implemented their occupancy detection. 

I will be finishing my track work this winter so now is when I need to make decisions. Before I start my scenery all of my wiring needs to be done. Full automation is not necessary to run my layout.  There are significant blind areas so occupancy detection would be useful.  My layout has three independent loops, a point to point logging line, and a small yard.  Also there will be a small yard thru the wall into the back shop.

Following this subject with great interest.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Our layout automation package includes hardware and software to link the TIU's and AIU's to the other systems.  You can operate the switch and accessories on any system and still control them from the PC and mobile devices.  The real decision maker ends up being which system(s) you want to have the option of controlling the switches from their respective remotes.  In the case of the NWTL the majority of the locomotive fleet (about %80) is MTH, so we definitely wanted to be able to operate switches from the DCS remote.  We used AIU's for all the switches and most of the accessories.  In your case, if you have a more even mix you might consider wiring both AIU's and ASC's in parallel for maximum flexibility.

Our software was written to be as flexible as possible.  RR&Co. is not your only option for interfacing with DCS.  JMRI and RocRail (both free open source projects) will interface with our software and thus DCS.  For folks who enjoy programming or want to save the cost of RR&Co. software you might find this a more enjoyable option.  JMRI Panel Pro is not nearly as capable as RR&Co., but you are free to make your own changes.

Hi CRH,

No, MTH is not really leaning towards DCC.  Our system includes DCC mainly because DCS and TMCC don't currently offer digital inputs for occupancy and switch position detection.  In the future the DCC hardware may not be necessary if MTH and/or Lionel offer detection.  

There are several technological advantages to DCS over DCC.  DCS has about ten times the effective bandwidth and native 2-way communications.  However, the biggest challenge facing DCC right now is limited packet size for the command codes.  It's the same problem Lionel tackled when they created Legacy and went to a 16bit code set.  The current NMRA Standards & Conformance Department Manager is a gentleman named Didrik Voss.  Di and I happen to be members of the same NMRA division and have discussed in some detail the code issues facing DCC.  DCC the current options being considered range from ugly to horrendous.  Lenz has been working for nearly ten years to develop 2-way communications for DCC with a system called RailCom.  RailCom was finally adopted as a Recommended Practice, not a standard.  However, Lenz is petitioning for changes in the DCC packet size so that they can communicate enough data to offer a loading feature similar to DCS.  It may be years before they ever get acceptance from the NMRA.  Another option currently on the table is called NMRA net, which replaces the current DCC codes with TCP/IP network protocol.  In theory it would work great if every engine was a wi-fi enabled device.  Instead, NMRA net tries to cram network protocol onto the existing modulated power signal.  Ever try to use the internet with a 14.4K modem?  That's about 5 times faster than DCC.  Di is pretty well convinced that NMRA net is a dead end unless the price of wi-fi hardware comes down substantially and I tend to agree.  RailCom is more promising, but it too exacerbates the bandwidth problems with DCC and their proposed new packet format is incompatible with existing DCC decoders.

MTH faces none of these issues with DCS.  They have much more flexibility to expand their codes and adopt new features.  I suspect we will be using less DCC hardware in the future rather than more.  But, for now, DCC does have good detection hardware that lets us do some things we couldn't otherwise do.

Dave,

Looks great! I can't wait to try it. Will this work with an iPad 1? Or does this require the newer hardware?

Andy

Read up on the NCE block detector circuit. See no need for that,at least with 3 rail track. For 3 rail why not just use the outer rails,one insulated with a circuit made by wheels of any car or engine and a resistor to generate a 15 ma signal for each block the same way it is done with electrical meters and instruments? No power draw from the car would be needed that way. Or simple relays and just use binary logic?

Dale H

Hi Andy,

The full automation package definitely works with with the iPad1.  We use three iPad1's as local control panels on the NWTL.

On the development of the stand alone apps I can't be quite so clear.  The iPad 1 stopped updating at iOS version 5.1.1.  So far we haven't run into any features that will require iOS 6, but we have a ways to go.  There's a very good chance the apps will work on iPad 1 and we will certainly try to make the apps compatible with as many devices as possible.  Unfortunately, at this point I can't guarantee compatibility with hardware Apple has quit supporting.

Hi Dale,

I assume you're referring to the NCE BD20 current detector that Matt asked about early in this thread.  You are correct, they are not needed in 3-rail.  We used insulated outside rails throughout the NWTL with excellent results.

However, Matt is now moving into 2-rail where some form of additional detection hardware is required.  My reply was quite specific in making that distinction.  The BD20 is an excellent choice for anyone working with DCS in 2-rail for several reasons.  First, it works well with a star wiring pattern.  Second, it doesn't cause any interference with the DCS signal.  Third, it functions without any external power supply.  There are many choices for detection in 2-rail and the BD20 isn't perfect in all scenarios, but it is a very good choice in most cases.

Dave

Will you be doing a DEMO at the end of Jan at the BIG-E train show

in Springfield, Mass?.......drooooooolllll......

If not, will there be other show demo's before TCA Spring York?

Is/are "BETA" versions available now?

Is/are there a detailed list of equiptment/software required to make this

"DREAM" happen?

the_Other_Ray

Frozen near Boston, Ma.

Dave,

Your work defining the requirements for the system and the coders who executed it are definitely going to have a great impact on our hobby!  I'm really looking forward to trying it out for myself and am glad to see that Mike Wolf and the other tallented folks at MTH see the value in it.

I've been putting together a video system that allows me to monitor trains while backing into/pulling out of my storage sidings that are hidden under the upper level of my layout.  My goal originally was very basic, display the video on a small screen (like a portable car DVD player), but then I decided to make use of my Thrive Android tablet and stream the video over my home wireless network using an iCam DVR to collect the camera feeds.

Being able to also control the rest of the layout and trains using your app on the tablet as well is really going to be cool!  I'm sure this will pique the interest of many young hobbyists too.

A couple questions though:

1) What's the hardware interface to the command control system?  I run DCS on my layout with an older (serial) TIU and AIUs.  Is there a physical connection between the server and the TIU(s) or is there an RF transceiver that connects to the server?

2) Dave Zucal mentioned the text interface and you have a nice but limited solution for it.  What about the possibility of video integration?  I can see a neat interface that would allow cameras like the ones on my layout that could be selected for viewing from one of the app control panels.  I wouldn't want to try to use the cameras as optical detection devices, but I'm sure there could be additional uses for a video interface.

3) I'm still using my cheap Atlas turntable controlled by your DCS AIU rectifier diode.  It still works great using my Mark 1 Mod 1 optical sensor (eyeball) for indexing.  Do you think the turntable could be accurately controlled using the app?

Thanks so much for all the help over the years and for making the next several years equally exciting, challenging and costly!

Bob

Hi Bob,

1 - The TIU's are connected to your LAN with a network adapter that plugs into the DB-9 serial port.  That allows any TIU ever made to link to the system.  On the NWTL, Barry B's layout, and others, the adapters we are using are hard wired to the network with ethernet  cables.  MTH will be coming out with a wireless adapter which will do the same job.  Each TIU requires one adapter.

2 - There are MANY existing options for streaming video to mobile devices and PCs via you LAN.  I don't have any plans at this time to embed video into any of our interfaces, but never say never.

3 - Yes, you can control an Atlas, Ross, Millhouse River, or any other turntable with our interface and RR&Co. Train controller.  You have several options on how to do this, and the Atlass TT is one of the easiest.  The Atlass TT runs at a predictable speed with an equal amount of time between each track.  RR&Co. allows you to govern the operation of a turntable off of timing and/or position detection.  With an Atlas you can reliably index the TT with timing alone.