Big Boy Rumor

The only engine I'm waiting on is the queen of excursions Southern 4501. After her they are all inferior. My own opinion of course.

CofG

"The Right Way"

THAT is confidential, so far!

there the close to the same size as the up challenger 121 feet..bigboy 132 feet and and 6200 drawbar hp..Prr S1 duplex 140 feet with 6500 drawbar hp..Alleghny is 7500 drawbar hp and the PRR Q2 is 124 feet and the big winner with the most Hp with 7,987 drawbar HP!!

You need to do more research. The PRR Q2 was outperformed by the N&W Class A in actual real train conditions.

not really.. the Y5-Y6b where at 5600 at drawbar and the Y6 had more tractive effort at 166,000 the class A only had 114,000..There was a test done in 1953.. the engine 2156 went against 4 emd diesels pulling the same loads.. both where a tie and used the same amount of fuel..found out N&W did some mods to the 2156.. and implements to give all Y5-Y6b the same mods..Ok now for the class A.. If it wasnt for Bob cloytor 1218 and the stream program would be.. After bob passed away in in 93 that was the end of the steam program and ended in the middle of restoring the 1218..I have a video of Bob driving the 1218 when she first rolled out of March 26, 1987, 1218 ran a break-in run from the steam shops at Irondale, Alabama to Wilton, Alabama. It entered in xcursion service and pulled many excursion trains until the end of the 1991,then , when it went for an overhaul. This overhaul was in progress when Norfolk Southern canceled its steam program in late 1994."I Got to see both 1218 and J611 up close and personal because I'd used to live in Fairview PA.. They stoped in front of my friends appartment in Erie Pa..Got abunch of pics of both of them.. best one was 611 going over tressels in my town of fairview PA..they did excrusions runs to bufflo NY  to Conneaut ohio.did that until 1993 when Bob passed away..

Couldn't resist...

 It sounds great to entertain the idea that someone would take millions of dollars for such an undertaking,but I don't see anyone doing that in this economy and not realizing that it would take one heck of a budget just to even run it once on a mainline.

 Understand that 25+ years ago the idea was easier to phantom with the people,the materials and the funds to take on such an adventure more readily available.And the fact the locomotives were 25+ years younger then also.

 I like everybody on here would love to see real proof as in an actual statement from some credible source that this fanciful idea is real.

 We all can hope

Pennsy ran tests of a 2-10-4 vs. an N&W Class A.  The 2-10-4 outperformed the A on grades probably due to the 2-10-4's higher factor of adhesion.

When Big Boy was built, it was rated at 3600 tons on the Hill, 6200 drawbar horsepower.  In the 50s, Big Boy was rated at 4400 tons on the Hill, matching the U.P.'s new Big Blow gas turbines, which had 7000 drawbar horsepower, and 8500 indicated horsepower.

The Pennsy Q-2 had a reading of nearly 8000 indicated horsepower on a stationary testplant.  On a good day it performed feats of haulage at high speeds on level lines, but plaqued with high maintenance on the butterfly valves and boiler seam leakage, they were doomed.

The point is that if the engine did what it was designed to do for that particular railroad, regardless of horsepower or tractive effort readings, it was sucessful.  Some engines were designed for fast freight (4-6-6-4, 4-4-6-4, 2-6-6-4, 4-8-4) and to make certain timetables, others for heavy haulage on mountain grades (2-8-8-2, 2-8-8-4, 2-10-10-2,  a few could do both (2-6-6-6, 4-8-8-4, 4-8-8-2, 2-10-4) so to compare these is like comparing apples to oranges.

Personally, I would rather see a Gas Turbine get restored. But I know that will never happen.

We have been through the Big Boy vs the 2-6-6-6 vs 2-8-8=4 etc. debate before. I personally would like to see one of each restored, because they were all amazing machines. But off all the great locomotives, it seems to me, the "A" would be the easiest to bring back. I am aware there are parts missing but I sure we are smart enough to make them again. As I said in an earlier post, track is the main problem for the Big Boy according to everything I have read. The locomotive is too big for many curves that have been redesigned for modern diesel locomotives.  So where would it run, and how would it get there? I also want to hear something more than rumors about this exciting possibility.

Ouch...too much scrapple. It DOES cause heartburn.

I'm going back to popcorn. 

Restore 4012 and have it pull the yard train at steamtown.

No surprise that the "Los Angeles" Big Boy is the best candidate. It was shopped right before being retired and the pistons were removed from the cylinders to keep them from seizing up.

I understand the R&LHS' concerns. A few years back, the Citrus Empire model railroad club was kicked out after decades under the bleachers at the Fairplex race track.

What about the group having the distinction of returning one to service?  I would like to know just what UP would give them to take her place for display.

I would like to know what they are offering to take her place on display as well. I also wonder why they are considering taking on a major restoration while 3985 is getting major work done. Hopefully there is no connection...

I read the Trains online article, it's hardly the last word.  I find these paragraphs interesting:

"The railroad has not publicly announced plans to expand its operating steam locomotive fleet, which includes the never retired 4-8-4 No. 844, which made an extensive system wide tour this year for the company’s 150^th anniversary of its founding, and 4-6-6-4 No. 3985, which is undergoing a major overhaul.

Contrary to Internet reports that UP has vetted the other seven Big Boys, representatives of the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, Wis., the Forney Museum of Transportation in Denver, and the Steamtown National Park Service site in Scranton, Pa., said Friday that none have been officially contacted. On its face, the engine in southern California, with its dry climate, would be among the best condition."

So, unless UP engineering teams were skulking around all of the other Big Boys wearing rubber noses, eyeglasses and moustaches doing "inspections," I'd say this is no where close to being a done deal.

Rusty

I think we may be missing the larger issue here.

With the right skilled labor, time, and enough money, you can restore (or build a replica of) anything! The main issue is where are you going to run it once it's complete???

Look at B&LE 643. At one point the engine was pretty much ready to return to service (present ownership aside) but here it sits some 20+ years after being "restored" and hasn't turned a wheel under her own power. Why is that? Mainly because there is nowhere to run it! And now it is sitting outdoors in one of the worst areas in Pittsburgh probably in worse condition than before its initial restoration and basically land locked. Sure it’s great to say lets restore a Big Boy or a NYC J Hudson or replicate a B&O EM-1 but in the end, if there is nowhere to operate it, you've just invested in ton of money in what amounts to an extreme cosmetic restoration!

When it comes to a Big Boy, you've got probably the biggest challenges of all. First off, it’s the world’s largest steam locomotive. I know, I know opinions differ on how to measure that but we all can agree it’s pretty freaking huge!!! In order to perform a first class restoration, you are talking about an incredible sum of money (just look at how much it cost to overhaul 765 and she had been operating pretty much right up until her restoration). How do you justify spending all that money to UP management? Assuming you did or someone else foot the bill, you are now going to take all the time and man power away from keeping the locomotives you already have operating to try to restore this (contrary to popular belief, there is not an army of people on the Steam Crew...only about 12 if I recall right).

Then of course with it tremendous size comes the problem of where is it capable of operating? According to Steve Lee, there are only two places you could run it (Ogden and Laramie if I remember right)....that's it! Two places in the most remote parts of the country. What sense does that make when you have a similar engine in 3985 that can travel over most (if not all) of the UP's trackage. And for those who think, "Well they can just build some wyes in a couple of places that are capable of turning a Big Boy" please pass whatever it is you are smoking! Union Pacific is Class I railroad in business for the sole purpose of making money by moving freight; not entertaining railfans. And beyond turning the engine, as someone said earlier the boiler swing in curves is tremendous! Not only would you have to deal with all the line-side structures such as signals and bridges, but what about trains on adjacent tracks?  Are we just going to hold traffic until the steam train passes? Talk about costing a fortune!!! Just ask Rich how big of a hit CSX took during the side-by-side excursion with 765 and 1225 during the '91 NRHS convention!

Yes I agree with you that it would be incredible to see a 4000 battle Sherman Hill one more time, but we must accept reality for what it is. Short of someone offering to spend Billions (yes Billions with a "B") to restore the Locomotive, install wyes, re-aline mainline track, etc. it's just not going to happen. We should all be thankful for what the UP did do with the Big Boy; save some examples for us to see in person today.

And that concludes my rant.

Possibly 2-10-2 5511?

I gave this some thought.  Granted, they were in tow and not "operating" at the time, but somehow 25 of them made it from Schenectady to Ogden.

Alco didn't just put some stamps on them and drop 'em in a mailbox.

It would appear the routes available is less of a problem that dealing with the locomotives at the ends of the line.

Rusty

Let the up spend its money how it wants and leave the outcome to them,  Don;t need to rehash whos engine is more powerfull than another.  Who cares.

you forgot they had to tow one to scraton PA for steam town!! thats a long distance and it made it there!

The engine I would love to see restored to operation is Pennsylvania E6s 4-4-2 #460, the Lindberg engine!

Stuart

It also has a lot of stuff in it not good for one's heart!

I suspect if B&LE had gone on to become the biggest class 1 in North America and they had put the work into rebuilding the 643, things might have played out a little different.

When you think about it, there are lots of folks who could underwrite this effort without even feeling it the way we feel the cost of a fancy restaurant.  All it would take is one billionaire who would rather restore a steam locomotive than run for office.

I can assure you - if I were rich, I would rather restore a locomotive than run for governor or congress.  

Well in Cheyenne in the UP roundhouse and in the neighboring steam shop I've spied

1 or 2 operating rotary plows

FEF 838 missing a few parts

UP 5511 2-10-2 also short a few pieces

A nice operating restored E9 ABA.  A more likely trade

Or they could trade one major problem for a bigger one?

What do you think a big boy is worth?

Fun to wish for but I'm with Rich. Where's the popcorn?

Now this is only a guess, but my guess would be that UP's rail is very heavy, maybe in the 152/yd vecinity and that the per axle load of a Big Boy is not dramaticallydifferent then a Challenger, which operates pretty much UP-system wide. The 4-6-6-4 had 404,000 lbs weight on drivers vs. 545,000 for the Big Boy. That works out to 67,333/driver axle/Challenger vs. 68,125/driver axle/Big Boy. Additionally if Big Boys' boiler swing did not collide with on-coming traffic in 1944 or 1959, why would it today? The tracks have not been moved closer in the intervening years.  So my guess would be coal spark induced lineside fires and turning arrangements would be the limiting operational impediments. Oh, and restoration $.

One possible trade would be the 4004 in Cheyenne.  Of course they would have to drag it out of the park.

I'm sitting here at my computer reading all these comments and all the second guessing because in reality nobody here knows what is going on. Who here knows this will be done, apparently nobody, which big boy would they use if it was rebuilt, apparently nobody, who is the 3rd party involved, nobody knows. Is this just all conjecture because of what somebody said?

The one thing this whole thread is missing-------FACTS. Give me the CEO/board of directors stating this is a a go, then I will believe.

This is the problem with the internet and today's journalism, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

FACTS, FACTS gentlemen, that is all I want!!!!

Well here is hoping for some facts.

Looks to me like people are having some fun...I know I am. Now that's a fact.

I'd like to know what the results of the "board meeting"yesterday were. Oh well in the mean time, I'm gonna go watch one of those shows were they finally capture bigfoot.

this is for the ones doughting..but hey up4014 anynews from the meeting yesteday?

More Popcorn, Rich ???

The  844/3985 Group on Facebook just posted that 3985 will not be put on the back burner, and that it will continue to go under restoration.

I asked what was being offered as trade, and they said that it is a touchy and personal subject, but 5511 was mentioned a few times.

You can read it here...https://www.facebook.com/pages...036621755?ref=stream

This is NOT an official UP page so take it how you will.

That's probably more likely to happen.

This is not directed towards you in any way Chris, thanks for posting the link. "We can't keep 3985 running but we can rebuild a bigboy"

BTW the bigfoot findings were inconclusive