CB&Q and Fort Worth & Denver passenger cars

@Rob Leese

WOW !!!

Thanks for sharing your customized TZ cars !!!

Are the GGD ESE cars made of ABS plastic or extruded aluminum ?

What paint brand & color did you use for the train name boards & RR ownership boards ?

Did you scratch build  your roof vents or are these commercially available ?

What are the part numbers for the Lionel diaphragms ?

I am also not a river counter.  Your models catch the spirit & feel of the TZ (even if some details are off, which I wouldn’t have noticed without you pointing them out).

My Zephyr fleet is mostly 15” (60’ Scale) plated aluminum cars from Lionel, K-Line, MTH, Williams, & Weaver.  I plan to add details so that they all have RR owner boards, tinted windows, diaphragms, silver trucks, & (for Vista Dome cars) Dome interiors.

I also have MTH CZ plated aluminum 18” (70’ Scale ) cars.  

I want to change the Silver names on some of the cars for variety to other prototypical Burlington Zephyr & CZ Car Names.

I have acquired the K4 BR Zephyr & CZ decals for these future projects.

I am currently finishing my basement for my modular layout.  

Thanks again !!!

In ZEPHYRUS we trust !!!

CB&Q Bill

All GGD streamlined cars are extruded aluminum. 

Great work Robert!  What are you pulling this train with?  3rd Rail E5s?

@GG1 4877 posted:

All GGD streamlined cars are extruded aluminum.

Great work Robert!  What are you pulling this train with?  3rd Rail E5s?

Yes.  And the K4 decals include TEXAS ZEPHYR in small letters for the nose of the E5A.

Questions answered:

this is the paint I use for letterboards, or to overspray an entire car if it is too glossy.
Some aluminum cars have an unrealistic high gloss finish…especially the plastic ends on a K-Line car.

These roof vents are a good solution for Budd cars. They will need a bit of sanding to get rid of mold joints, and I clipped the mounting stud shorter as to not interfere with interior lighting strips.
Re: better diaphragms. The Lionelsupport.com web pages feature a variety of diaphragms. Another extensive project I am working on is a Frisco METEOR passenger train, and the TEXAS SPECIAL aluminum cars being redone for the project have full width diaphragms. Full width was not what I wanted so I bought TS complete car ends from Lionel support as replacements and diassembled the full width ends and saved the parts…then repainted them silver. This involved a bit of dremel work to make the striker plates correct.
Hope this helps.

16 section sleeper, Silver Palm:

Hi Rob:

What adhesives & glues did you use to attach your train-name boards & RR-name boards to your aluminum (& plastic) body models ?

Thanks in advance !!!

CB&Q Bill

@CBQ_Bill posted:

Hi Rob:

What adhesives & glues did you use to attach your train-name boards & RR-name boards to your aluminum (& plastic) body models ?

Thanks in advance !!!

CB&Q Bill

I have used three or four different brands of "super glue".  The brand I prefer to use is Gorilla glue...it is much more viscous than other brands, so it does not have the tendency to flow everywhere you do not want it.  It also bonds quite fast which means you better "get it right" quickly.

Here is one of my future projects.  K4 Decals provides the small lettering applied to the front indicating ownership (FW&D or C&S) and pool service: TEXAS ZEPHYR.

@GG1 4877 posted:

All GGD streamlined cars are extruded aluminum.

Great work Robert!  What are you pulling this train with?  3rd Rail E5s?

Very nice Rob!!!

@Rob Leese posted:

I have used three or four different brands of "super glue".  The brand I prefer to use is Gorilla glue...it is much more viscous than other brands, so it does not have the tendency to flow everywhere you do not want it.  It also bonds quite fast which means you better "get it right" quickly.

Here is one of my future projects.  K4 Decals provides the small lettering applied to the front indicating ownership (FW&D or C&S) and pool service: TEXAS ZEPHYR.

Rob, was this E5 from the first run?

@Rob Leese posted:

I have used three or four different brands of "super glue".  The brand I prefer to use is Gorilla glue...it is much more viscous than other brands, so it does not have the tendency to flow everywhere you do not want it.  It also bonds quite fast which means you better "get it right" quickly.

I need to try some of that...

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Rob, was this E5 from the first run?

Yes sir.  It is going to get C&S lettering someday.

I can tell. Paint was better applied in run #1.

Not finished, but getting close.

I seldom thought this was possible, but here they are.  These locomotives pulling the TZ or unnamed trains #7 and #8 came by my grandmother’s house in Chillicothe, TX. When a train horn sounded in the distance, it was “dangerous ground” between me and the front door.

SILVER STREAK on the workbench.  This is a K-Line ESE obs which is fairly easy to work on. My guy for l e d light kits has disappeared (Dan’s L E Depot), so I’m not sure where to locate flicker free red markers or tailsign lighting.

The real SILVER STREAK survives, mostly intact, in Austin, TX.

The latest project  

Silver Streak was originally built for the articulated DENVER ZEPHYR in 1936. When the CB&Q upgraded the DZ to a domeliner in 1956, the old trainsets were sold to C&S and FW&D to run as the “finer, faster TEXAS ZEPHYR”  

Q: how can an older trainset make the 1940 ZEPHYR finer?

A: the articulated set brought full diner service and a wider variety of sleeping accommodations to the train.  Yet, it also brought less flexibility in consists.  Some of the car sets were 3 car articulations.  One bad order car took out all adjoining cars with it.

Silver Streak resides in Austin, TX.  I think it is a juice bar or something similar.

Rob:

Your TZ projects are fantastic !!!

CB&Q Bill

I didn't even know this existed.  If anyone comes to the Austin area, it is Southwest of Austin.  The address is 9300 Hwy 290, Austin 78736.

The SP Railcar "Pride of Texas", the CB&Q Railcar "Silver Beam", and the CB&Q Railcar "Silver Lining" are also there (at least that is what the Texas Compound website says).

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I can tell. Paint was better applied in run #1.

I would like your opinion on an idea regarding the Sunset Models E5's.

The locomotive paint appears gray to me instead of reflective stainless steel.  I have been experimenting with some "chrome" labeled paints which do render a reflective finish.  Do you think these models would look better if they had a chrome finish?   The only thing holding me back on this project is a lack of replacement decals.  Microscale used to print them but have since discontinued them...they said a special run could be done if 250 sets were ordered. (I am not that desperate).

I remember reading a comment you made regarding these models saying "a lot of work needs to be done..."

¿que piensas?   

That’s a tough one! I‘d say try it with the red nose unit.

The Texas Zephyr trainsets had an upgraded heavyweight diner to protect dining service when the regular dining cars were bad ordered.  #263 was an unnamed car painted silver to somewhat match the E G Budd cars which formed the majority of the TZ.

This Atlas offering came lettered as #171 and featured no roof detail:

The BURLINGTON lettering is not crisp, yet I left it alone.  New lettering for ownership, car type, and car number were added in the correct font.  As with most everything I do, "it ain't exact", but I like it.

top photo: Steve Goen collection.

Robert,

Funny you should show the repainted heavyweight.  I have a few GGD heavyweight coaches that will receive silver paint for my fictitious CBQ train that is made up of all heavyweight cars.  I have two sets of Microscale decals floating around but can't find them for the life of me!

I think the silver painted heavyweights are really interesting cars.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Robert,

Funny you should show the repainted heavyweight.  I have a few GGD heavyweight coaches that will receive silver paint for my fictitious CBQ train that is made up of all heavyweight cars.  I have two sets of Microscale decals floating around but can't find them for the life of me!

I think the silver painted heavyweights are really interesting cars.

You probably know this already how the FW&D had a small fleet of heavyweight coaches painted *silver* which ran on mail trains #7 and 8, and provided extra seating on the TZ during peak travel periods.  I am researching the exact color to get a close match. Having said “silver” above, it may actually be a very light gray. It is not easy to find color reference photos of these cars, but Steve Goen’s two excellent books covering the FW&D have several b/w photos of hvywt cars.
I thought my #263 diner looked quite realistic after some grimy weathering was added.

If the color is "Light Aluminum" then it would be closer to gray than to true silver.  I have the photos of the FW&D silver heavyweight coaches and the GGD one is a really close match.  That was how I was going to letter mine.

If I can ever find the decals ......

Colorado & Southern SILVER BOWL observation lounge. This is a GGD car…the last one I ever plan to work on.
SILVER TRAY got a new tailsign from Tomar.

Videos of your whole train running now please!

Berwyns Trains did a special run of CB&Q heavyweight coaches made by Atlas from MTH tooling. These served as the beginning of FW&D/C&S coach project. The photo of a photo shows C & S coach 549 carrying the markers for mail trains #7 and 8.  
I replaced the factory lighting with flicker-free GGD light strips. The markers are Tomar powered by flicker-free modules from Hennings Trains.  There isn’t enough space on the vestibule to drill a hole for mounting Tomar markers, so I just glued them to the end of the car and ran the power cabling the same way as the prototype.  It is my usual crude work, but I like the way the car turned out.

Nice work as usual Rob !!!!                        One question - where did you source the vestibule “gate”?  That a nice addition that I’d like to do.

@TrainBub posted:

Nice work as usual Rob !!!!                        One question - where did you source the vestibule “gate”?  That a nice addition that I’d like to do.

I think it is a Keil Line product sold by Scale City Designs. It has been in my stash for many years.

VERY NICE!

I just finished these cars before my five busiest months on the ranch begins, and I won't have time to do anything in the "car shop".

FW&D 33 and 104 were two of the eighteen baggage/express cars on their roster.  The Texas Zephyr 1 and 2, and trains 7 and 8 were very "head end heavy".  33 is a K-Line car while 104 is a Lionel.

Heavyweight coach 204 was a regular on trains 7 and 8, and often on the Zephyr during peak travel periods.  It is an Atlas (MTH) car offered as a special run from Berwyn's Trains.  It will be a companion coach to this car bringing up the markers:

I still have a Lionel observation car to redo into Silver Hours which ran on the Sam Houston Zephyr between Fort Worth and Houston.  That will make my fourth obs to match my Zephyr collection.  I want to finish it and take photos of all four before I jettison Silver Bowl  (C&S) since it did not turn out too well.

@Rob Leese

These are wonderful cars !!!

Thanks for sharing !!!

CB&Q Bill

The caption below the “photo of a photo” in Steve Allen Goen’s first book covering the Fort Worth & Denver Rwy. says the entire story.  I have modeled both 109 and 110. These Atlas Steam Era Classic cars are remarkable.  The prototypes 109 and 110 had friction bearing trucks, and I chose to leave the Express-type trucks on the models. Complete accuracy is something for which I am not famous.

Fabulous work!

Jeff C

Nice

Silver Streak's conversion (a K-Line ESE car) was considered complete until I realized I could add road-specific detail to make it even more accurate.  The search for a signature CB&Q tail marker ended when I realized these parts could be ordered from MTH Parts as part of their Premier Pioneer Zephyr models.  A little Dremel work, white putty, and LED's from Evans Designs resulted in this:

Photos made in the dark reveal how it leaks a bit of light from the places where parts meet.  Stand way back in a well-lit room and it will look impressive. Hehe!

On the workbench I still have another Lionel obs to redo as Silver Hours which brought up the markers for the Sam Houston Zephyr.

Silver Hours carried the markers for the SAM HOUSTON ZEPHYR which ran between Dallas and Houston, TX.  This train ran on the "Joint Line" (Burlington-Rock Island), and I believe the trainsets were ultimately owned by the Colorado & Southern.  Rock Island's TWIN STAR ROCKET also plied these rails.  The SAM HOUSTON ZEPHYR consist was typically an E5A (9909 Silver Bullet which later became C&S 9953) pulling one baggage car, three coaches and Silver Hours.  Its competition for that route was Southern Pacific's SUNBEAM and HUSTLER.  ***Would not we like to go back to those days!*** 

This car truly does not resemble the real Silver Hours in many respects, and the differences are too numerous to mention.  It was as close as I could manage with a Lionel ESE observation car...but as always, I am not famous for 100% accuracy.

The real Silver Hours once resided in Corpus Christi, TX and now resides at the railroad museum in Galveston, TX.  Neither place is suitable for preserving ANYTHING, and I am frequent to mention this anytime I see posts regarding this car on social media. 

This is a Lionel ESE obs with new lettering, Venetian blinds decals, interior figures, a new tail marker from MTH, and a Tomar drumhead. The wonderful Lionel flicker free lighting was only supplemented with taps for the Tomar drumhead.

Having done two Lionels, one GGD, and one K-Line observation car, if I had to do yet another, I believe I would lean towards the K-Line.  They all have varying strengths and weaknesses, but this is what a person has to deal with to model obscure railroads.

One might think I should be satisfied with the current fleet, but I have four Erie GGD heavyweight coaches to transform into FW&D or C&S, and a need for one or two more streamlined Pullmans for the TEXAS ZEPHYR.  It's a weakness, I admit.

@CBQ_Bill

Hi @Rob Leese

Your models of the TZ Silver Hours are fantastic !!!

Zephyrus smiles down on your wonderful efforts !!!

CB&Q Bill

Fantastic work! This whole project has been fun to watch and great to see some actual modeling in 3 rail O scale!

I've been eyeing a Lionel Observation or considering converting my K-Line ESE obs into a similar car to model the CBQ one that is preserved at the National Railway Museum.  Thanks for the inspiration!

As for the rest of my K-Line ESE cars?  Dare I say they are likely getting redone in PC.  I know how dare a deface such a fine thread with a road name like that.

Great work as always Rob!

@GG1 4877 posted:

I've been eyeing a Lionel Observation or considering converting my K-Line ESE obs into a similar car to model the CBQ one that is preserved at the National Railway Museum.  Thanks for the inspiration!

As for the rest of my K-Line ESE cars?  Dare I say they are likely getting redone in PC.  I know how dare a deface such a fine thread with a road name like that.

Great work as always Rob!

Stuff you already know:  the Lionel already has great lighting and plastic windows which remove without a battle.  The K-Line has incandescent lighting prone to flickering. The window openings are noticably larger and covered with a thin clear plastic strip. Lionel has the best doors and diaphragms (IMHO). K-Line’s E.G. Budd fluting looks the better, to me. Those are some of several differences.

P.S. I have never disliked Penn Central…maybe felt kinda sorry for them. I will never forget a cartoon I saw in Trains magazine decades ago. A forlorn looking kid is sitting on the floor running a PC train on a loop. The transformer has a throttle and 3 buttons: Forward-Reverse-Liquidate. Haha

This Atlas (nee MTH) RPO was a special run done by Berwyn's Trains.  It arrived painted silver and FW&D did not have any silver RPOs on their roster.  I added some extra roof vents to the clerestory roof section which was common on Burlington head end cars.  I removed all the lighting and the pickup rollers, and blanked out several windows.  Pullman green paint, Microscale decals, slight weathering, and plenty of dullcoat finished the job.  Relettering this car caused me to realize I had mistakenly lettered a full baggage car with the same number.  That #33 became 103 to correct the mistake.

This type of RPO could be seen on both the Texas Zephyr and the unnamed mail trains.

The Fort Worth & Denver had five 60’ baggage cars built by Pullman in 1907. They were numbered 47 thru 51.  

F.W.&D. 47 is an Atlas car and F.W.&D. 50 is a K-Line.  This completes a 10 car mail train, #7 southbound or #8 northbound. (The FW&D was a north/south railroad according to their timetables).  This would be enough for most modelers but I got a screaming bargain on a set of four GGD heavyweight coaches which will be redone in FW&D or C&S paint jobs. The party never ends…

True story:

In the mid 1960’s young Dennis Braden left Lusk, WY to get an Agriculture degree from Texas Tech in Lubbock, TX.  To make a little money while going to college he worked part time at my father’s cattle auction.  He probably rode from WY to Denver on CB&Q #30 in a car just like this one.  He related to me that getting to Amarillo from Denver on the TZ took less time than riding the all-stops local to get to Denver.  :-)

Dennis eventually went on to be general manager of the historic Swensen Ranch headquartered in Stamford, TX.  His son is now general manager of the King Ranch in south Texas.
yes…I know that I have already done this car with a  70’ Atlas model, but I have little self control in some respects.  I think the paint is more accurate this time.
@CBQ_Bill

@Rob Leese

Wow !!!  What a great model !!!

Did the Texas Zephyr continue operations into the early 1970s ?  I was under the mistaken impression that the TZ ended in the mid 1960s.  

It is neat that you have personal knowledge of the prototype passenger car for your model.

CB&Q Bill

@CBQ_Bill posted:

@Rob Leese

Wow !!!  What a great model !!!

Did the Texas Zephyr continue operations into the early 1970s ?  I was under the mistaken impression that the TZ ended in the mid 1960s.  

It is neat that you have personal knowledge of the prototype passenger car for your model.

CB&Q Bill

The last Zephyrs were discontinued in 1967.

@Rob Leese - What color did you finally settle on for the C&S coach?  I have a few GGD coaches I plan on painting in the same paint scheme.  Going to re-letter a few Atlas CZ domes to Burlington first, but my heavyweight coach project is somewhere on the list!

@Rob Leese posted:

The last Zephyrs were discontinued in 1967.

Too bad, too. I've thought for years, given the growth in Texas and the popularity of Colorado with Texans for vacations, skiing, etc., that a passenger train from Houston to Dallas/Ft. Worth to Denver using the old Zephyr trackage (now used by BNSF) would be an extremely popular route for Amtrak, year-around. Adding additional cars to transport SUVs, Jeeps, etc. for passengers would really add to it. This line is probably now too crowded to allow passenger trains, based on my observations, but if at all possible this route would give Amtrak a huge moneymaker.

@GG1 4877 posted:

@Rob Leese - What color did you finally settle on for the C&S coach?  I have a few GGD coaches I plan on painting in the same paint scheme.  Going to re-letter a few Atlas CZ domes to Burlington first, but my heavyweight coach project is somewhere on the list!

I will get back with you on this next week. My artist wife has me on the road to an art exhibit this long weekend.

@breezinup posted:

Too bad, too. I've thought for years, given the growth in Texas and the popularity of Colorado with Texans for vacations, skiing, etc., that a passenger train from Houston to Dallas/Ft. Worth to Denver using the old Zephyr trackage (now used by BNSF) would be an extremely popular route for Amtrak, year-around. Adding additional cars to transport SUVs, Jeeps, etc. for passengers would really add to it. This line is probably now too crowded to allow passenger trains, based on my observations, but if at all possible this route would give Amtrak a huge moneymaker.

I like / agree with this idea. For a Houston and DFW departure dependent, an overnite sleeper would be wonderful. Sleep thru the not so interesting / subdued Texas scenery (my opinion - I’ve lived in Denver, Dallas, Houston) to wake up to sunrise on the Rocky Mountains rolling towards Denver.
Return trip …… Denver departure timed to facilitate sleeping in the Texas part.  

The auto train part is interesting but I’m not sure it would have a “critical mass” to work (like Florida).    

Cheers. 😉

@Rob Leese posted:

The primary reason I use this type of paint is: I do not have the time to dink with an airbrush. My job takes most of my time, and most ranchers never get to retire. That is also why I will never have a layout. I would would be more than happy to “eat those words”.

Thanks for the info.  I'm not sure when I'll get my "round tuit" out and finally get my cars done as my airbrush is buried in a box somewhere in my shed.  Might try and dig it out after the holidays.  I also have to find out what I did with the four sets of Microscale decals I bought for my projects.  I have a drawer full of decals and literature for all the roads I research for 3rd Rail and somehow am missing the ones I actually want to put on cars. 

I hope you do get to eat your words one day!  As an architect, our definition of retirement is falling face first onto our drafting tables now sadly occupied by a computer at some point late in our career, so I understand the inability to retire part even if I don't put in nearly the hours a rancher does! 

Silver Maple has been added to the roster.

Another baggage car for pool service on the Texas Zephyr, Sam Houston Zephyr, or #’s 7 and 8.

This was a K-Line car lettered for the California Zephyr.

Rob

Fantastic !!!

Did you apply new decals to K-Line’s existing letter boards & car name plaques ?

Please share your process

Thanks in advance !!!

CB&Q Bill

@CBQ_Bill posted:

Rob

Fantastic !!!

Did you apply new decals to K-Line’s existing letter boards & car name plaques ?

Please share your process

Thanks in advance !!!

CB&Q Bill

I only had to remove the California Zephyr lettering and the car name.  The letter boards were of sufficient length for the new decals.  To make these cars look almost real, I weather them slightly with black chalks and apply several coats of dullcoat finish.  I also removed the power pickup rollers and lighting because I do not light my head end cars.  This was a quick and easy project.  This car should have been named Silver Light but K4 did not include this name in their decal set...presently, they only have names for the Texas Zephyr cars.

  The Chicago Burlington and Quincy built a total of 60 "economy" baggage cars in its Havelock shops between October 1950 and September 1953. Twenty cars #990-1009 were assigned to Zephyr service and wore Aluminum paint. Some of these cars also had shadow-lining applied for time in an effort to better blend them with the fluted stainless steel cars. The other 40 cars #1015-1054 were painted Burlington dark green and assigned to the general passenger pool.

This baggage car was part of a two-car Santa Fe set from MTH.  The boxes are long-gone, so I don't know the set number.  The other car is a streamlined RPO, and these cars ran on a Santa Fe Fast Mail train I collected.  That entire collection will be for sale at our March 9-10 Train-A-Palooza, but I could not part with this car.  The detail is as good or better than anything you can buy.  990 does not fit my FW&D projects, but as I said, I just could not let it go.

One of these Havelock cars has been preserved at the IRM.

Another wonderful job Rob.  Thanks for sharing!

@GG1 4877 posted:

If the color is "Light Aluminum" then it would be closer to gray than to true silver.  I have the photos of the FW&D silver heavyweight coaches and the GGD one is a really close match.  That was how I was going to letter mine.

If I can ever find the decals ......

On March 9-10 I attended the annual Train-A-Palooza hosted by the Lone Star Hi-Railers, and railroad historian and author Steve Allen Goen was there as a vendor.  He is an authority on Texas railroads. I ask him what exact color did the FW&D use on the heavyweight coaches and diners. His reply was “light aluminum”, and the appearance of rooftops looking white-ish in color photography is due to fading caused over time by sunlight. I think we have all seen autos painted silver which badly faded as they aged.
I still have 3 GGD coaches to repaint and reletter as FW&D or C&S when time allows. I think I will still mask the sides and apply a coat of matte white to the roof as a first coat…then go over the entire car with light aluminum yet barely covering the roof to create the effect of fading.

@GG1 4877As a followup to my last post, here is a completed 21” heavyweight coach for FW&D Rwy. with the color of paint I have finally settled on. Three of the photos show a side by side comparison of the final paint vs. the old paint. * If I could only go back in time and see an original coach and its color, then I would know how close it is *
I am not going to repaint the two 17” cars I have previously done.   A rare FW&D modeler interested in those cars would stumble into a bargain.

@Rob Leese I love the sheen on the FW&D car.  That is how I would like to paint mine.  Still trying to find what I did with my decals, but I can always order more and dig out my airbrush to move this project up in the schedule.  Beautiful work as always. 

A few outdoor photos contrasting a Sunset E5, homespun heavyweight, and a GGD obs.

@robleese, "It's a weakness, I admit.", more of a strength I would say.

Mr. Leese, I am pleased to inform you that, by approval of the Vice President - Mechanical,  your personal record has been awarded ten merits for exceptional research, painting, and detailing, of O gauge  passenger cars used by the Fort Worth & Denver Railroad.  Congratulations and best wishes for future projects.