Cost of a PS 1 board?

I'd like to know ... I ended up with 4-5 from upgrades to PS2, including a couple of slave boards. 

I also have a large supply of these boards.  I use them as I am finding several people who do run PS-1.  I remember about a year ago a guy on the forum was begging for a free PS-1 board from one of the guys who do upgrades.  My thoughts on him were not good. 

Considering how problematic PS1 was, and the fact that they sometimes get scrambled from sitting around with depleted batteries, I would not think the value is very high. I bought a secondhand MTH Zephyr with scrambled PS1 electronics which I removed and converted it to conventional operation with an electronic E-unit of another manufacture. That's a cheap, simple, reliable fix. I don't think it's worth putting any money into PS1 repairs.

I've been selling the PS/1 boards I remove from upgrades for $25-30, that seems to be about all you're going to get for them.

Ace, actually if people read the book, they would not have any problems.  It is a poor workman that blames his tools.  PS-1 was only a problem to those who made things problems.  I run into guys often who power up one that has been sitting for 5 or more years. The result is not always good.

John, I will be happy to direct people to you who want to buy the boards reasonable.  To someone who runs PS-1 that is a steal.

I have a couple waiting in the wings for conversions, either to PS/2 (if the kits ever shake loose), or TMCC.

So you're saying I'm a poor workman who doesn't know how to read instructions? PS1 was a poor design that did not stand the test of time. MANY hobbyists had bad experiences with PS1 and it's a poor excuse to try to blame customers for a bad design that scrambles itself from mere disuse. Thanks Heavens I never bought any new PS1 items.

I do have a secondhand MTH Big Boy with PS1 electronics that still work and I make sure the battery is charged before running it. But a lot of train hobbyists may not know those quirks of PS1, especially beyond the first owner.

Well, I have to say that the fact that PS/1 would scramble it's brains with a dead battery was not exactly a good design, but was clearly bad design.

I think there is a lot of misinformation out there on PS-1.  It doesn't scramble itself from disuse.  If an owner replaced the battery after sitting for 10 months, it would work fine.  Plus it was some of the early models that had the issue.  Later models were not suceptible to scrambles from weak batteries.  I have the first Premier N&W J from 1997, and it has been operated on several occasions with dead or weak batteries (3 or 4 batteries over 15 years of use).  Has yet to be scrambled, and it is a daily runner on my layout. 

I have yet to run into a software scramble that could not be restored.  It was the price you paid for the continuity of sound and remote programming possible before TMCC and then DCS hit the market.  

There were plenty of operator issues because folks did not understand critical operating voltages (starting out with voltage less than 10V) and the use of a reset state which was not a neutral.  In my opinion it is far better then any non command operating or sound system because of the remote control features available.  G

Not "would", but rather could.  Dead batteries weren't the issue, because the watchdog circuit prevented that.  It was the near dead battery under about 5V that could allow a scramble when the processor was retrieving or storing data in the memory.  If you think about what the system could do remotely without command signals, just voltage levels and DC offsets with a regular transformer, it is pretty amazing in my opinion.  Helped pave the way from the PW Mechanical E-unit to the electronic age of Command Control;-)  Always some bumps on the path.   G

Ace, that was by no means pointed at you.  I apologize if it sounded that way.  I do have a small bit of experience with PS-1 having gone to MTH school 4 times and having worked on hundreds of those engines.  I have also worked repairing PS-1 locomotives in the MTH repair department.  As GGG pointed out, the PS-1 boards are very workable and most problems can be solved.  In later years, MTH offered to the public a chip reboot kit for the 3 clanks of death.  Being a MTH repair guy, we also have 3 other chips that can take care of many problems and bring the PS-1 boards back to life.  I am an operator and have had over 200 MTH PS-1 locomotives before selling them off and converting to PS-2.  I stand tall and correct you for stating MTH PS-1 locomotives are a bad design.  It was a good design and still is today.  Any owner of a PS-1 locomotive should read the item that comes in the box.  It is a book outlining the operation of the locomotive.  Many people bash PS-1 who never had any experience with it. 

Every so often, someone likes to comment on something they heard somewhere from someone.  First hand experience is still the best. 

I agree with Marty here, I have had many dozens of PS-1 locos and I never had one fail. The reason you may ask? I read the manual and still do till this day. It seems too many operators don't read the manual till there is a problem. This why you see so many questions on the board about DCS and legacy problems that if they read the manual it would be clear. Barrys book is also is a valuable resource and anybody who runs DCS should have it. 

Barry's book is the Bible.  When someone would do something to cause a problem to a PS-1 loco, the first thing many of them  do is blame the locomotive.   That is what I meant when I stated it is a poor workman that blames his tools. 

Marty, can one avoid the "3 clanks of death" by charging the battery on the track as is recommended in the manual after the locomotive has been on the shelf for a year, or should the battery be removed and replaced.

I'm concerned about this "reversing poles" issue croaking on of my PS1 locomotives which don't get run very often.

MTH does state you can do this.  If you feel the battery has some charge, you can do this but turn the smoke unit off and set the voltage at about 15 volts.  Myself, if I know the battery has not been charged for some time, I always like to start with a fresh battery.  Any PS-1 that I look at gets a fresh battery or one that is a known fully charged battery.  I have a few battery testing units on my workbench.  Many batteries can read charged but use one that shows a good charge under a load. 

Here is a simple battery tester I built and it has been worth it's weight in gold.  It lives on my workbench and goes to York with me.  It will read a battery with or without a load.

It reads DC voltage.  It can read PS-1 batteries, PS-2 board batteries in both 5V and 3V locomotives.  I have a jack that plugs into the bottom of the DCS remote and when you turn your remote on, it will read what you have for battery life in the remote.  The red and black plugs can be used for test probes.  In some of the early PS-1 locomotives with the battery buried under the board, it is easier to hit it with the probes than remove it.

I respectfully disagree. I have over 60 PS1 units and I think in some respects it was a bad design IMO.  No one would expect an electronic device to be damaged by a low battery condition,it is simply counter intuitive and there is no warning in the manual that board damage could result. It is simply implied that the device will not function properly like any other electronic device with a bad battery. For something that critical to the system a simple charging jack was not even incorporated in the design. The real problem was that MTH prohibited QSI from marketing improved versions which overcame the original flaws and did not recall their boards themselves and replace with revised versions. Lots of systems have problems in their early stages, but how companies handle problems is often the real issue.  While these 2 battled it out the customer suffered.

As far as the battery issue,the scramble problem can be largely avoided by switching to NIMH batteries or a BCR. I have never scrambled a chip using a BCR even on engines I have the problem list which previously scrambled. I even tried experiments to intentionally scramble them. NICAD batteries are a poor choice to use in the unit since they are prone to cell reversal and memory effect. It does not do the charging system any good trying to charge a NICAD battery which has developed this syndrome. Seen a lot of units with burnt components in the charging circuit. The issue is not just about chip scrambling. Often the battery is replaced when the user experiences problems and the BCR is erroneously blamed but the charging system was already damaged by charging a bad battery. Even if a battery tests good (and comprehensive testing is tedious as the shell has to be pulled, the battery removed and tested under load) it could go bad the next time it discharges after it is installed and result in board damage.

Battery backup for memory retention is antiquated and has been for many years now, largely replaced by super capacitors developed for that purpose. I used to service coin op games and saw the transition in design way back I think in the mid 90s. Biggest problem on those older boards with battery backup was leakage of acid. Other than that a bad battery would not damage a system,the memory of the device simply would not function. Same should have been true with all PS1 boards.

Dale H

Charging the battery on the track puts a lot of stress and heat on the electronics. Even with the smoke unit off it gets pretty warm just sitting there. Poor engineering, something like having a car designed so that you could not get access to the battery and you have to run the motor all night to charge it if it had a low charge which could result in vehicle electronic system damage. The manual also states not to leave a transformer unattended so I guess according to the manual you have to stay up all night and watch it.

Dale H

I do not like doing so.  I would not sleep if I knew I had an engine charging on the track.  It does not take long to replace a battery.

As time has passed, many bash the PS-1 system.  The problem deselect engines from the mid 90's was the fault of QSI not taking the feature out.  MTH has supported replacing those chips free until only last year.  Last York, I met a man with 8 Premier PS-1 engines.  I purchased them all.  All the big ones.  They had not been run in many years.  I put new NIMH batteries in them all and did a feature reset and all were good.  Early on, I switched to NIMH.

Dale, if you have 60 PS-1 locomotives and do not like the design, why do you still have them?  I had over 200 and dumped them when PS-2 came out.  I still have 3 left.  Those are my Mass. Bay engines.  I see them each day in real life and became fond of them.  I do not think any marketing guy would ever state that board damage could result from a defective/low battery.  If he boasted that, he might be looking for a job.  PS-1 was new to all of us and we all learned from it. 

 I was upset with Mike when he came out with the kit for the 3 clanks of death.  We  (repair tech) could always pick up pocket change for doing the fix.  Actually it reduced the work load at MTH Service.

Well, I can tell you that I've had first hand experience with PS1 and the failures.  OTOH, I will agree that maybe "bad" is over the top for describing the system.  It did bring some nice features to the table. 

I had one that was able to be fixed with the reset chip, but two others were just "dead" and could only be revived by replacing the firmware with the new version. Of course, I had to buy a replacement chip for the one, and the new firmware for the others, so in all cases I had to lay out some cash for a design flaw.

It did annoy me to have to pay for a replacement chips, which I guess has colored my thinking.

You buy a 15 year old train that doesn't work and it annoys you to pay for a chip?  Don't you buy 5 year old trains that have bad R2LC or sound boards that you repair?

If you took it to a tech he could have restored the softwware for you.  If the chip went bad, that does happen, every manufacture has hardware that breaks.  The low battery did not cause a chip hardware fault though.  G

The chips I refer to were the ones that were not fixed by the reset chip, you needed the replacement chip from MTH that ignores the engine selection from what I understand.  In any case, I've moved on from PS/1 and am strictly command now.

Dale, I am with you on the same battery used in early PS-2 engines.  I was not happy.  Today, MTH has made those replacements as NI-MH.  I have one in front of me and it is part number BG-4000005.  I have used them in some of my electric engines and do monitor them often.  They seem to hold up well when let sit for a bit.  I run several early GG-1 locomotives but have converted them to the retro 3 volt boards.

You kinda' prove the point here in a way Marty.  

If I have to take this (or send it) to a tech and pay him to unscramble the memory, that's even worse than having to buy the chip to fix it.  It's a "quick fix" if you have the stuff to fix it, not so quick when you don't even know they exist.

I have to admit, there seems to still be quite a bit of interest in the PS/1 stuff, I'm somewhat surprised.  I guess I shouldn't be, there are plenty of conventional operators around, and the PS/1 stuff fits that environment just fine.

Did PS1 boards contain engine specific sound sets?  Like, will a T&P GP9 board be wrong in a SF GP9?

Mark,

Each PS1 board came with an engine-specific sound chip. To change sounds, you would change chips.

Yes and no.  In general, the sound sets were the same for a specific engine model.  There could be difference such as Freight versus Passenger sounds, and some special sounds that may have been road name specific. 

Mostly the chips for a specific diesel would be the same, regardless of roadname.  G

GGG wrote

"Second, low batteries DO NOT Damage the boards.  Never have and never will.  Even cell reversal which you love to talk about.  Go trace the circuit and components and tell me how it happens.  I have.  As I have mentioned before, I had one engine where the battery was installed in reverse.  Totally draining the battery and doing no damage to the board.  That is full cell reversal with no hardware damage."

Dealing with semantics here. As far as the consumer is concerned the train sits there and goes clank clank clunk. To repair it he has to take it to a repair man and spend money on it. When he/she gets it back it still has the same issues and is prone to scrambling. I do not think one would tolerate this with any other consumer product.

I had 2 units brand new which sat in the box. Both boards were DOA and both batteries measured negative voltage. I remember at the time because I used a second meter to confirm my measurements I also logged all my repairs. This is anecdotal evidence I admit but I still had 2 units new that were still dead. 2 units with reversed cell batteries and 2 dead units so I connected the dots. I do have better things to do with my time to do a scientific cause and effect study. Not really that interesting I rather just power up my trains and run them.

Consumer products generally have a simple diode in the flow of the battery to protect it from the user installing the battery backwards. Since MTH offers no schematic of the system I can not confirm if this was done in the design.

"Did your microsoft computer ever need a reboot!  Was it damaged or just a software conflict.  That is all that occurs, and MTH and QSI did solve issues as they arose, including the ID conflict."

I am not a computer expert but worked with people who had doctorate degrees who were. They told me to avoid Microsoft products like the plague. I followed that advise and use only Apple products. I have a 10+ year old Imac G4. No spam,no crashes,no problems, I mean zero. As I mentioned before regardless of the cause of the problem ,it dont work and has to be taken to a service tech,they are not cheap. I know that because I was one and I did not work cheap.

"You are talking about a design from the late 80s applied in the 90s with available technology, and you want to compare it to stuff made today like super capacitors and new battery technology."

Super capacitors were available before the year 2000,and were used as common practice after that. 10 years later MTH still persisted in using NICAD batteries even after private vendors demonstrated capacitors worked just as well.  PS3 finally uses capacitors aimed mostly at European customers who demand better quality.  Could have been done with PS2 in 2003 or whenever it came out. Poor engineering.

"Go show me any O gauge AC train system in that day that could do the things QSI did.

Not every PS-1 gets a software conflict when operated on a very weak or dead battery.  Some do other don't.  I actually think the %, especially for systems 96 and up is pretty low.  I am 100% successful restoring systems that do have a software conflict."

I am aware of the list and it is long and not all inclusive. What causes the scramble is not really a weak battery,it is the memory effect NICADs have. Instead of discharging in a linear fashion, voltage suddenly falls off a cliff. Going from say 8 to 4 in a short time.

 "For those that like PS-1 and still retain batteries, have a charging port installed like PS-2 has.  MTH sells the kits, and wiring in the PS-2 style with correct polarity will work.  I have done it."

When MTH offered the charging kit, if the user installed it it voided the warranty on PS1 units. Much easier and even cost effective to simply use a BCR. No worry about leakage during long term storage. Charge for one minute and you are ready to go. Nice to use 21st century technology in the 21st century.

Dale H

I'm just installing BCRs in the old locomotives as I come across them to run.

So far it's worked out well.  Just toss the old battery without checking it.

"I am aware of the list and it is long and not all inclusive. What causes the scramble is not really a weak battery,it is the memory effect NICADs have. Instead of discharging in a linear fashion, voltage suddenly falls off a cliff. Going from say 8 to 4 in a short "

Dale, for some one who states they have been in the electronic business for years, I find it interesting you don't want to look at the functions of the components on the board, before stating all your claims.

Now you are downing NICADS.  My NICADS last 4-5 years without damaging or scrambling my engines.  Having said that there is and IC on the board that prevents the processor from transfering data to memory at a certain minimum voltage level.  That is how it works.

What was the size of those super capacitors back in 2000?  Remember PS-1 was started in the 90s.

If you don't like it don't buy it but let's not spread misinformation.  G

GGG

Read about them yourself if interested. Scan down the page and you will see "memory effect" and "cell reversal". It describes the syndrome.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–cadmium_battery

Here is an excerpt

"Memory effect

Ni–Cd batteries may suffer from a "memory effect" if they are discharged and recharged to the same state of charge hundreds of times. The apparent symptom is that the battery "remembers" the point in its charge cycle where recharging began and during subsequent use suffers a sudden drop in voltage at that point, as if the battery had been discharged. The capacity of the battery is not actually reduced substantially. Some electronics designed to be powered by Ni–Cd batteries are able to withstand this reduced voltage long enough for the voltage to return to normal. However, if the device is unable to operate through this period of decreased voltage, it will be unable to get enough energy out of the battery, and for all practical purposes, the battery appears "dead" earlier than normal.

There is evidence that the memory effect story originated from orbiting satellites, where they were typically charging for twelve hours out of 24 for several years.^[9] After this time, it was found that the capacities of the batteries had declined significantly, but were still fit for use. It is unlikely that this precise repetitive charging (for example, 1,000 charges/discharges with less than 2% variability) could ever be reproduced by consumers using electrical goods.

An effect with similar symptoms to the memory effect is the so-called voltage depression or lazy battery effect. This results from repeated overcharging; the symptom is that the battery appears to be fully charged but discharges quickly after only a brief period of operation. In rare cases, much of the lost capacity can be recovered by a few deep-discharge cycles, a function often provided by automatic battery chargers. However, this process may reduce the shelf life of the battery.^[10] If treated well, a Ni–Cd battery can last for 1,000 cycles or more before its capacity drops below half its original capacity."

The problem is you can charge them to 8.4 volts and when put under load the voltage drops suddenly unlike an alkaline battery or capacitor or NIMH battery.

 In 2000 Super Capacitors were available as I remember at least 1 farad 2.7 volts,enough to build a BCR.

If you read my previous posts I still buy PS1 units I just toss the NICAD batteries and replace with BCRs. I never claimed that every use and application of NICAD batteries results in failure or that anyone who uses them will experience failure. There were people who put pennies in fuse boxes years ago and never burnt their house down. That does not mean it was good practice to do so.  I said it is and was a poor choice compared to capacitors or NIMH batteries and MTH used them only until very recently. Many people experienced the scrambled chip problem and some service centers replaced boards and charged customers rather than descrambling them due to poor communication by MTH to their service centers.  Change for them seems very slow. I am glad you never experienced a problem.

GGG wrote:

"Dale, you need to chose your words carefully, and you also need to add some common sense to this.  First, NICAD were the rechargable battery available in 1994.  The NIMH were not, they came around later."

I researched into it a bit further. NIMH batteries were put on the market in 1989.

Dale H

Dale, What is your point?  While cell reversal and memory effect are all possibilities they don't neccessarily occur in the operation of a Toy Train.

There are also characteristic with respect to discharge rates between the two types,  just like freon 134 wasn't a perfect replacement for 12.  The real issue with NiCD has to do with enviromental issues, otherwise they are a good battery and were used in a lot of applications.  There non use discharge rate is much slower then the NIMH.  The problem is not a memory effect.  The problem is the voltage available on the battery when power is applied.  NIMH get in the zone faster than NICD when not used.

Then there is the issue of load on the chargin power supply.  Capacitor have higher current draw then a battery.  This also needed to be factored in.  Early QSI boards were not design to handle the higher current draw.

The whole point is that if you charged those NiCD batteries after sitting for all those year (or replaced them) prior to powering up your engines they would have worked fine.

I have to reset several PS-1 with BCR every year on early suceptible engines because the owner forgets about waiting for 45sec and the sounds come on before a full charge and they try to change directions when voltage is in that 5V zone, causing a scramble.

I believe the hydrades and super caps were more expensive at the time.  The manufacture chose a NiCD battery.  Cost matters to some.  If your in the manufacturing business you don't or can't spin on a dime.  With super caps in 2000, the design and production for PS-2 5V (MTH first Command system) was in production and being delivered.  Your asking for new technology to be installed prior to the invention.  Hind sight is always perfect.  G

To me it seems that everything QSI produces is a half-assed product.

PS1 was fine back in it's day but just look at the problems.

The QSI Magnum is another half-baked product. All that decoder could power as far as lights was the forward/ reverse Led's  BUT the sound files and the micro-processor is setup for all the lights to function..QSI never finished the board design enough to utilize all the lights..all that was needed was some Led driver circuits.

Now the new QSI Titan has been released way too early..no clear documentation on how to configure the dang thing. For instance the smoke unit fan and the rear cab light are on the same circuit. I know of one individual that's had 2 new boards fail out of 6. But everyone is being told to wait as it'll all be straightened out with a new firmware release...hmm..I've heard that before out of QSI over 10 years ago.

"Dale, What is your point?  While cell reversal and memory effect are all possibilities they don't neccessarily occur in the operation of a Toy Train."

And they dont necessarily not occur. Why take the risk?

"Then there is the issue of load on the chargin power supply.  Capacitor have higher current draw then a battery.  This also needed to be factored in.  Early QSI boards were not design to handle the higher current draw."

The supercapacitor only draws on the circuit for 45 seconds or so.  Most any charging system ,if engineered correctly protects itself from over drawing of current. Since the schematic is still proprietary I can not comment of what system it has or does not have.

"The whole point is that if you charged those NiCD batteries after sitting for all those year (or replaced them) prior to powering up your engines they would have worked fine."

Read the above carefully. If the NICAD totally discharges,cell reversal can occur. During usage memory effect can occur. You could charge the battery fully and then the voltage could suddenly drop off after a load is pulled. The device then gets no voltage in the middle of a cycle.

"I have to reset several PS-1 with BCR every year on early suceptible engines because the owner forgets about waiting for 45sec and the sounds come on before a full charge and they try to change directions when voltage is in that 5V zone, causing a scramble. "

I guess this could still occur but I have not experienced it.

"I believe the hydrades and super caps were more expensive at the time.  The manufacture chose a NiCD battery.  Cost matters to some.  If your in the manufacturing business you don't or can't spin on a dime.  With super caps in 2000, the design and production for PS-2 5V (MTH first Command system) was in production and being delivered.  Your asking for new technology to be installed prior to the invention.  Hind sight is always perfect."  G

Not really I expect MTH to upgrade the system as they go along. When the BCR was introduced,it was demonstrated that PS1 or PS2 did not need a battery. Yet MTH persisted in using NICADs for a very long time afterwards. I rebuild old amplifiers but I dont use wax sealed paper capacitors or selenium rectifiers. I use silicone rectifiers and modern components. BY 2002 at least MTH should have upgraded components and revised materials used.

As far as the command system being rushed into delivery you are quite correct,and the problems associated with it reflects the premature introduction. Light bulbs are needed to enhance signals and varies between layouts and a non MTH employee has to write a long book explaining how to get it to work. I think my college textbook on Physics explaining the operation of the universe was a bit shorter than Barry's manual,and once I got by Maxwell's equations easier to comprehend. Unlike DCS, at least the universe seemed orderly and follows some kind of natural laws and made some kind of sense.

I think we have beat this to death and are boring people so I will not comment further. We will have to agree to disagree,and I mean this respectfully. If NICADs work for you I am happy for you. Trains are supposed to be fun so no hard feelings.  For others reading BCRs are a proven alternative. I have no stake or interest in their sales. I met Wayne once at York and he seemed very competent and knowledgeable. He also installs and repairs PS1,PS2 etc.  WWW.jandwelectronics.com has more information if you want to go that route.  They are about the same cost or a bit more than a new battery and installing a charging jack.

Dale H

Been reading this thread alittle bit.. I'd been so badly out of MTh trains..only didled with MTH in 96 when I got my first O gage UP challenger..Marty whats the three clang of death?  Is this when the train drops dead?  Because mine did that and I was scared as heck.. just put a C&NW sound system in my 3rd Rail S2 turbine.  It did this on the 6th run.. Got so upset ,Id keeped on moving the throtle on my transformer back and forth to go threw the changs and clinks and got it going again..I have to get that book your talking about.. Gunnerjohn I'll be insterested in buying 1 of your boards when your ready..Never heard from the UP guy who wanted to change his bigboy to TMCC..I'd been seeing those board system goin 30-50..on fleabay. Id payed 50 since it came from a new engine and the guy was converting it to 2 rail..Marty another question.. I saw on silver tin rail there updates/upgrades to the Proto 1.. Is this true?

G,

"I have to reset several PS-1 with BCR every year on early suceptible engines because the owner forgets about waiting for 45sec and the sounds come on before a full charge and they try to change directions when voltage is in that 5V zone, causing a scramble. "

I wonder how many of these engines had the BCR installed after it was scrambled and then the BCR was installed hoping to cure the problem? You know that has been the case sometimes. I've tried scrambling a PS1 board on purpose with the BCR with no luck by starting up too soon. But it doesn't mean it can't happen I guess.

Was it a board that was scrambled with a battery?  My J has gone through 3 dead batteries, an a couple of derailments that killed power and it has never scrambled.

I think we have to remember that the precentage of trains that run fine even when batteries die is much higher than the trains that have problems.

Until this year I never had an engine with 3 clanks.  Then I had 2 in a row.  Everything else has been a "list engine" or a simple change of the battery and a reset.  Only 2 hardware faults and one bad Prom chip.   G