First ERR Install-How do I get puffing smoke to work? I'll tell ya! Updated 6/9/15

You know what? I just blocked you.  It was really easy and I'll never have to read one of your comments again.  You always have a smart ### comment to make and I never cared for your attitude anyhow.

For someone always pointing out his preference for 2R brass in your replies you sure spend a lot of time stirring #### on the 3R boards. 

If anyone else has a helpful suggestion I'm all ears.  

And, yes, there is fluid in it.  

The ERR upgrade kit does not include a circuit to pulse the fan motor. If you contact them they will send you a schematic of a puff and chuff circuit you can build or you can buy one of GRJ's Super Chuffer. The Puff and chuff circuit basically takes the reed switch closure to drive a pair of transistors that drive the fan and chuff input. Those inputs have to be isolated from each other.

Pete

Thanks Pete, that's what I needed to know.

I have a Super Chuffer and will get it installed.

It sounds like you still need a trigger, a magnet on the wheel and a reed switch. There are some threads , I think at least one by Alex M on installing the magnet and reed switch. You can get 4 chuffs per rev with two magnets.

What kind of engine did you start with?

The Super chuffer board enhances the effect.

You do in fact still need a trigger and ERR supplies a reed switch and magnet but you can only use that switch for one function. Either drive the chuff input or turn 3-5 VDC on and off to the fan. It can't be connected to both or damage to the chuff input will occur.

An additional circuit is required to isolate the two.

Pete

Moonman, 

I have a reed switch and 4 magnets installed on a drive wheel.  It chuffs great.

Originally, it was a Weaver FEF with no TMCC or sound.  

I have the Super Chuffer, will get it installed tomorrow night.  I got all the wire leads soldered on tonight but was too tired to get it in.  Wanted to check my ERR install first and that's when I got confused on why I didn't have puffing smoke.

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

Hi Guys,

Yep your on the right track, just install the super chuffer and you will be good to go

Alex

Didn't K-line do it with just an isolation diode between the fan return and the switch?  Basically when the switch closes the chuff signal is grounded and the fan motor return is also grounded to allow the fan to run?  

Obviously the super chuff is a better effect, but I think that is how Lionel and K-Line got around this on some units.  G

Sounds good. You'll have a new engine that will smoke you out of the train room.

G, K-Line may have done it with a diode but you still need a source for the fan power which isn't provided from ERR. You could also do it with a second reed switch. Regardless of the solution you will need extra components not provided in the upgrade kit.

Pete

For Lionel the source for the fan comes from the fan unit PCB.  There is a trace to cut or remove the solder spot the enables the 3rd pin on the smoke unit as a direct control of the fan 5V source.  So the only additional component is a common diode.   G

The Super-Chuffer supplies the fan power, so you won't need to do anything about power.

G, Not all smoke units have a 5v source on the board. Most of the early ones didn't puff but rather were on all the time like diesel smoke. They have a 2 pin connector for the motor that gets power from a board that Lionel makes. The OP has ERR electronics. AFAIK ERR doesn't provide power for a fan motor.

Pete

I just had the ERR chuff puffer installed in my fully (ERR) upgraded BB.  It is not working right.  It puts on a great display when the engine is moving (creeping) along.  There is a very high volume of smoke that puffs maybe 10" high.  Then, as more throttle (not voltage) is applied the height and smoke volume of the chuffs decreases exponentially.  By the time the engine is at about 20 SMPH, the smoke just has the dry ice effect where it creeps down the sides of the boiler.  At about 40 SMPH, the smoke will eventually quit altogether.  It does puff in sync with the chuff.  I didn't know about Gun Runner John's "Super Chuffer", which is about the same price as the ERR chuffer, or I would have went that route.  I will watch this thread with interest, and hope that you update your progress.

Thanks!

Rich  

Rich, it's not to late to change to the Super-Chuffer.

Rich, I have built a number of puff and chuff circuits using ERRs design. One problem with it is its output will mirror what the reed switch is doing. It simply provides a buffer for the signal. If the reed switch is closed for only a few milliseconds then the signal to the motor will only be on for that length of time actually shorter due to armature inertia. A few Milliseconds is long enough to trigger the chuff sound but not for the motor. Try moving the reed switch around and see if that helps.

John's circuit works well with a lot of enhancements. Hopefully the next version will be a little smaller so it can be used in more engines. I am zero for two in trying to fit them.

In the meantime I have some 2 pole reed relays that are working well for me and take up very little real estate.

Pete

Pete, I'm confused as to why you couldn't use the Super-Chuffer.  It doesn't require anything that the ERR simple buffer circuit doesn't require.  Track voltage, chuff switch in, and everything else is outputs.  Are the engines really that small that you can't fit it in?  I've put it into several semi-scale K-Line engines with the TMCC in the locomotive, and I managed to get the board in those with the upgraded fan driven smoke unit.

John, I can see multiple Super Chuffer units in my future for my big steamers.

Pete- excellent information!  If you don't mind, I might contact you off-line on those reed switches after I open up the BB and have a look around!

Rich

John, Its simply a matter of not finding the space. This first one I tried was a Lionel USRA 0-8-0. The second was a Lionel Harriman 2-8-0. Close but no cigar as the frame is too narrow to lay it flat and no way to mount it vertically. 

They will get used. I have lot of larger engines where space is not a problem.

Pete

I can see the space, I thought about putting it in the Lionel TMCC Camelback, but no go!  Talk about a tight fit!  I did manage to get it into the Lionel USRA 0-8-0 with a small MTH single-element smoke unit to replace the puffer.  Let's just say it was a tight fit and leave it at that.

It's possible to make them a bit smaller, though I run into problems when I do that of not being able to handle the tiny SMT components.  I recently did a board and mistakenly specified some 201 sized resistors.  I couldn't even see the stupid things without my magnifier, and forget about getting them soldered to the board!   Needless to say, I redid the board with larger resistors.

I now work on a self-imposed limit with SMT parts of the 603 sized parts and larger.  I need to be able to build prototypes before committing to production sized runs, and my skills aren't up to the really tiny parts anymore.  I'm not sure how people build stuff like cellphones with those parts, they look like specks of dust to me!

What are the "two pole reed switches" you speak of?

The reed relays I am using are from Coto. I have both single and double pole 5V versions from Digikey.

Single pole:

http://www.digikey.com/product...;keywords=9001-05-00

Double Pole:

http://www.digikey.com/product...keywords=2332-05-010

I can drive the double pole relay directly from an TAS EOB drop in board.

If using a Reed switch pickup than a 5v source would be needed but is shared with fan motor power.

Pete

I was thinking magnetic reed switches.

For relays, I prefer these: http://www.digikey.com/product.../PB1078CT-ND/1634015

They come in all coil voltages, and they're the ones I use on several projects.  Being DPDT, they give me a lot of flexibility in usage.

It appears both 5V Double Pole relays draw about the same current. The single pole Coto only draws 10ma. They are also available in different coil voltages and appear to be smaller, being not much wider than a typical SIP.

A double pole reed switch would make things really simple, though.

Pete

Pete, True but the early ones that were on all the time do have the 5V reg.   The reason it was on all the time is the trace was jumpered with a solder dab.

If you have an engine with a separate power supply I assume that is much newer stuff.

As an example, my Lionel N&W J with TMCC RS 5.0 has a fan driven smoke unit that is only on when the chuff switch is closed.

I guess my point being most fan driven unit have the 5V, if you have a smoke unit without it is in a newer engine with newer electronics, so I am not sure why you would be upgrading to ERR.   G

Check the overall size of the relay I posted, it's much shorter than the Coto relays, lower profile, and barely wider.  They're actually a very small package.

If you want a DPDP 5V with 10ma coil, here you go from the same product line at half the price of the less capable Coto model: http://www.digikey.com/product...-0/PB1169-ND/1828441

Also, He was talking Lionel Fan drive, so it does.  The only one that don't are MTH and TAS if I remember correctly.  Otherwise it is Lionel Legacy, which I am not sure you would downgrade to ERR.

John, The Coto DPDT relay measures .750"L x .21"W x .31"H actual measurement.

George, you are a stubborn guy. This is Lionel fan smoke unit. It has no onboard electronics of any kind. Just two connectors, a motor and a resistor.

Pete

Right Pete, and the relay I posted is much smaller in total volume.  It's only half as long at less than 1/2" long, less than 1/4" wide, and 3/16" tall.

Here's a couple of quick fuzzy snaps from my cell phone.

Thanks John. I will have to pick up a few of those to play with.

Pete

On their website (ERR's) they sell a smoke puff controller. Go to purchase, accessories, and then scroll to the bottom of the list. Go to this link for their home page: http://www.electricrr.com/

Harry, for $35 all you get is an anemic buffer so that you can power the motor and the chuff off of the same chuff switch with a 5V power source.  It's not a "controller" in any real sense of the word.

What you don't get is timed chuffs and idle smoke.  If you read a few posts up, you'll see how important it is not to tie the smoke chuff duration to the duration of the chuff switch.

Trying to use that in my upgrades is why I developed the Super-Chuffer, I was not happy with the simple buffering.  For an extra $25 you get not only superior smoke handling, you also get Rule-17 lighting and cab light control as well.

Come on Pete, So are you.  I state there are some with out, but "most" Lionel fan driven smoke unit have the 5V reg.  Certainly the ones for mod.

All I originally stated is that a diode can be the buffer.  Clearly if there is no 5V power source for the fan, you don't need a buffer do you?

You picked a fan from a Vision Line Legacy,  Why would you be down grading that unit.

If that is the smoke unit you picked, chose wiser.  G

Guys,

I can't tell you how much I've learned by reading the responses here.  Thank you.

Well, after a rough start, I have puffing smoke now!  All it took was a Super Chuffer!  Thanks GRJ!

I'm really excited, it was awesome to see the fan start and stop with each chuff!

It smokes great.  I changed the resistor to an 18 ohm unit, enlarged the air opening, replaced the wick with the rope style, and thoroughly soaked it.

Here's a few mistakes I made along the way with my ERR install.  Don't want others to do the same:

1.  Load the TMCC 'Generic Steam' module if using a 990...I can't tell ya' how long I stood there looking at the remote wondering why I only saw numbers and no icons!  I'm new to command control, so I ask for forgiveness...

2.  Set the feature code-Don't forget it.  Certain functions don't work unless this is done. Smoke is one of them.

3.  ERR CC and RS Commander do not provide puffing smoke!   I spent hours trying to figure this out and it isn't annotated in the directions anywhere.  Thanks OGR for all of the Knowledge Yoda Gurus or I'd still be trying to figure this out....

4.  Buy a Super Chuffer 

5.  Take time wiring, use labels and verify it is correct.  Believe it or not, I didn't screw this up.

I'd post a video, but it's just a mechanism and a bunch of wire right now.  You can read more about my FEF here.

Thanks again for all the help!

Super-Chuffer, the cure to all ills.

Well, maybe not all ills.

Puffing smoke has been an Achilles heel to Lionel for quite some time.  Especially TMCC stuff.  John's board filled a Lionel Void for TMCC integrated smoke.  G

86, glad you sorted everything out, and that must be one very good value in brass, scale steam with updated electronics and smoke--years ago I had this engine and it was among my favorites.

Send GRJ a "thank you" note for bringing this "dated" piece to current, state of the art, features.

You nailed it.  Well put.

I'm not an electrician by any means...so, this was really a challenge for me.  I was nervous about diving into something like this, which is one reason I did it: I needed to learn so I can do all the other locomotive projects on my list. 

For those who have never done an ERR install or are nervous about it, just do it.  The ERR directions are good (the diagrams are easy to understand and clearly labeled), this forum has great help, ERR provides tech support, and what I found really helpful was a youtube clip done by Legacy Station.  It's about 45 minutes and clarifies some things the directions don't mention.  I watched it several times prior to the install.

I was so excited to get the chuffing to work I ran it for 20 minutes on the stationary rollers!  It's so cool to think I installed this and it works!

Back to brass detail work!

Your pleasure at seeing the electronics work is similar to what I get when I do detail cosmetic work on the locomotives, I'm always amazed when it comes out right.   I can clearly state that I'm more of an engineer than an artist, so for the really fine work, I move slowly to avoid screwing something up.