Help me design an attic layout

I did an around the room layout in my attic-like spare room. For me that was the best option as far as "real-estate".

The layout in the video is the opposite to what you say you would like, around the room. It looks like video layout would fit in your space with some small changes so why not have it in the middle of the room and walk around it?

Allowing for a 2' aisle, best possible table is about 7x12. Consider that on two sides your aisle is going to have a sloped ceiling overhead.

An 11x12 around-the-room layout will work nicely. The height of your knee wall and/or the bottom of the window will be the controlling height of the bench work. One advantage, with lower bench work your top can be wider. I'd suggest 42" max. A peninsula in the center (from window back towards the door) will give you space for sidings/yard area.

Were it mine, I'd do a U shaped folded dog bone with reversing loops on each end.  

I'm doing a layout in the attic of our A-frame, the room is 13-1/2 x 13-1/2 but due to the severe roof slope my layout is 13-1/2 by 7'.  Around the walls is the only way to go for me as it affords me an 072 outer loop and an 064 inner loop. Good luck, that's a nice sized room you have.

Thank you fellas...around the room it is then.  Anyone have any horse shoe shaped track plans they like? 

Are there any step by step instructions for building a layout like the video posted above? I’ve looked around on YouTube, but didn’t see much. 

What color for the walls?

Hi ASYMAIR95,

Some other considerations:

1. The knee wall height is higher than the window sill height -- going to the highest point where the slope starts decreases use of table top for train clearance-- I would suggest somewhere between to two heights or just below the window sill. Can you hang the AC units in the top sash?
2. Speaking of the windows--that table may have to more narrow than the rest -- you'll need access to the windows
3. It's appears that the long wall has the heat unit-- that table should stand away from the wall to permit good convection--floor to ceiling air flow
4. Electrical needs--are the receptacles for this area on their breaker in the electrical panel? Are the receptacles on one circuit or separate circuits? Are any of the receptacles switched on/off by a switch near the door? Having clean power and the ability to power the layout on/off at the door are good options
5. Are you satisfied with the lighting?

I would paint what ever vertical wall is exposed and the ceilings in Sherwin-Williams Tibetan Sky - it is a very light blue - like the color of the horizon over the tree tops on a sunny day- it shows less blue when brightly lit and slightly darker in dimmer light. It is actually a white with a touch of blue.

I don't see any need to do the end walls. You may want to paint a scene or put backdrop photos there.

You'll also need a visual block for AC unit(s) in the windows. They are what they are, a necessity, but if you hide them in any way, it will look better.

here's a concept for the U shape with an allowance for the baseboard connector. The grid is 6" blocks.

I can see the long corner being good for a yard/engine storage and using Gilly's thoughts. if you give me a few measurements and some clarification on track inventory, I can put together a track plan concept to start you off. 30" wide tables except for the window end and the turnaround ends near the door. 24" in front of the windows.

 

 

I apologize, Welcome to the OGR Forum!

I am sure you'll find what you need with the wealth of knowledge that the forum members have.

Thank you for the help Moonman. That is the kind of brain stimulation I was looking for. Let me try and answer some of the questions.

-The window ac units are for the downstairs bedrooms, not the windows in this room. We are just storing them here for the moment.  There will be no ac in these windows.

-We usually do not open these windows. Wasps tend to come in when we do. Thinking we can keep the benchwork wider in this spot.

-The heater is not used too much in this area, helps keep the fuel oil bill down. Will be using a plug in heater to just heat this room. Summers I will not be using the trains much, so no need for cooling.

-I will check the electrical out today. That was something I hadn’t thought of. Will report back with findings.

-The only lighting in this area at the moment is on the ceiling fan in the middle of the room. What would you recommend for lighting on a layout? Something on a dimmer switch I assume? A fan would be a bad idea because it would blow around scenic grass and foam?

-Will head out today and find some Tibetan blue. I need to paint the whole room because it needs it. It hasn’t seen paint in decades. Also need to finish some baseboard trim and paint before I start. Hoping to get that going today.

-Some updated measurements:

The shorter long wall is 135”

The longer long wall is 202”

The window wall is 137”

The door section of wall is 61” from door frame to corner of  shorter long wall.

The last section of wall is from door frame to corner of longer long wall. This section of wall is not angled, it is flat and perpendicular to the window wall. This piece is 70”

The only section that is angled is the wall with the door in it.

Height of the knee wall is 44”

Height to bottom of window sash is 34”

Thank you again for all the help. 

Just a quick back story. All of my track, and most of my trains came to me from my Father. They were his and my Uncles when they were kids in the 50’s. My Grandfather who I was very close with bought most of these train sets for them and spent hours playing with them with the kids. My Grandfather, and Uncle have both since passed. My Dad is 71, and I would like him to see his trains running once again before his health deteriorates. I now have children of my own 4 and 7, and would like to pass on this Lionel tradition.

Thank you again for your help. I’m currently cleaning all of their old track and will get a track count for you. I figured I could always buy more if I ran out. Thanks again

Welcome to the forum. Lot's of great talent and advice to be found here. I agree with Tom and Carl, an around the room "folded dog bone" style layout would work best. The head room along the wall is poor due to the roof line so better to place the trains there. I peninsula in the center would make for a great yard for switching trains.

Think about how you want to operate your trains- do you like to do a lot of switching or loop running.

If you want operating accessories watch the size of them. They take up a lot of real estate.

Try and use larger radius curves (054 min), as this will allow longer trains to negotiate curves easily.

How many trains do you want to run simultaneously?

You've come to the right place for help.

Bob

The whole room may be too much blue. Paint it any color that you like.

At the top of the forum, in the blue menu bar, you will see a search button.

Search attic layout a look at some of posts. That will give you some ideas of how other forum members utilize the space.

I think you'll need a fan at times. You can always get some different LED bulbs in different colors (2700k, 3200k, 5000k) to change the look. it should be ok for what you want to do and keep the costs down.

Thanks for the measurements. 34" isn't too low for a deck height - set up something flat that high and see how you like it. Avoiding going around the windows over the sill will make the build easier. That will give you 8"-10" on the sides of vertical space for buildings flats or painted scenery.

I'll set up the walls in my software and a beginning table shape to start and make them 30" wide, except for the ends near the door. 24"may work for you and it will make better use of sheet material. Cut a piece of cardboard and lay four lines of straight and an accessory or building, maybe a switch. Mock up what can fit for the long runs. You may be surprised with 24".

keeps things simple now to get something up and running. That will be enough of a task.

I can offer you a suggestion you may want to consider for your walls and ceiling. How eager you are to wanting the walls and ceiling painted would be a factor.

Using a roller, I gave the whole room a basecoat of a not-too-bright off-white; then, I painted the blue, using a brush, with my attitude relaxed, bit by bit. When I came to a spot where I thought a cloud might be happy, I left that area unpainted in blue, leaving it white; thus, having more of a creative experience than a chore.

The gradual process turned out to be fun. So, all the clouds you see here were not painted atop the blue sky. Rather, the blue was painted up to where I imagined clouds would be, letting the clouds take shape in front of me.

And of course I realized that if I wanted parts of the sky to be a little more stormy, I could take a bit of gray and shade/feather the bottoms in anytime I wanted.

Those are all amazing recommendations, thank you, thank you.

I checked the power today and all four outlets are hot and non switched. I think the whole attic is on one breaker.

I was thinking of making the benchwork wider, just using 4x8 sheets around the perimeter. Is 48” too deep to use for the top of the benchwork? That would leave me with 3’ in the middle to move around between the two sections. 

I would like a good mix of loop running and switching, with emphasis on loop running. I would like to run three trains at once, with a trolly/gang car line. I mainly will be using the sidings for storage of cars and engines. The few operating accessories I have could be on their own siding.

I bought some paint today and will get to work with the roller and brush.

Thank you again for the help.

Joe

Asymair95 posted:

I was thinking of making the benchwork wider, just using 4x8 sheets around the perimeter. Is 48” too deep to use for the top of the benchwork?

Height to bottom of window sash is 34”

Joe

If you build 32" tall bench work (same as I have in my attic layout), 42" wide is doable. I would not suggest going 48". FWIW, you can get under 32" bench work, but it is not fun. I'm 6'2" and can barely sit up under the layout. If I could have built it @34", I would have.

I was doing some mock up today and discovered what you are talking about. 48” is difficult to reach across for someone my height 5’9”. I am going with 34” on the height. 

I painted all the baseboard and doorway trim yesterday. This week will be the blue on the walls/clouds, and buying wood for the benchwork. 

Every night after everyone is in bed I clean 10 pieces of track. I have already cleaned, repaired, and tested all the switches. 

Interesting perspective on too low. My issue was it being seen while lounging on a sofa. 30" would have been nice I think, but before I ever take some off the legs I have something new to measure; the melon to joist clearance.

I'd want at least enough at 40" or 50" to fit an 0-36 or 0-48 line in. I know your focus is postwar, but there are just too many tempting engines that need something bigger than 0-31. You can't even run an old Berk, FM-TM, GG-1 etc on the 0-27, the 0-31 would be pushing it slightly.

Asymair95 posted:

Every night after everyone is in bed I clean 10 pieces of track. I have already cleaned, repaired, and tested all the switches. 

BTW, when it comes to track cleaning, you aren't using steel wool are you?

A few comments on the comments.

Running a 726 Berkshire - I've run mine witht Irvingtom, Manhattan and Madison on my O-31 test loop with no problems, but it looks ridiculous.  You need two inches clearnace from the third rail on the outside of the curve.  Consider using O-56 on the outer loop, O-31 on the inner and something between on the middle.

The GG1 on O-31 is fine, the articulated chassis has four short segments.

Consider running all the way raound the room and having a lift bridge at the doorway.  It's not difficult and would give you about 50 foot long loops with no worries about the kind of crowding you'd have at the end of a dogbone.  I've built two of them, on curves.  I'll take some photos and post them tomorrow or Tuesday.  

I have solved all of the problems of maintaining alignment and electrical continuity.  Maybe I should write an article about building drawbridges.

In regard to accessories, If you want to be able to use the 97 coal elevator or 164 log loader, you need two tracks 15 inches apart.  That's an exact fit for a layout using  022 switches.  Consider this lyard diagram with a reverse curve between A and c and an 022 at B.  Tracks 1 and 2 will be 15 inches apart and the 97 0r 164 will fit perfectly.

1_____A

              \C______B______

2_____________  /

Got the room painted a nice shade of blue. The Mrs. said she would do the clouds for me, she likes artsy stuff like that.

 

Some answers to concerns posted above.

I don’t want to use a wider radius track than the o31 I currently have. Part of the reason for building this layout is the nostalgia of running trains on track that was used by my Grandpa, Uncle, and Dad. This is why I’m going through all the trouble of cleaning the old track. I’ve seen videos of the wider radius track, looks great though. I have more o27 than I have o31 though.

I do have a few engines that will require the o31 track. There is a GG1 and Southern F3 that need the wider radius. Most everything else is o27 friendly.

I’m using 3m pads to clean the track, followed by a wipe down with wd40. The oil will be removed before running.

I was thinking about adding a complete loop around the room. The door to the room opens into the room though and would hit the benchwork. 

I don’t have either of those accessories. The only one left is the 364 log loader. All the other ones were sold several years ago when we fell on hard times

I would like to buy back some of the accessories we sold during that time. I will have to get a list together.

 

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Maybe I should write an article about building drawbridges.

Yes, you should. I can always use articles like that.

 Im not even addressing overhang looks, just versatility and my own regrets.

I only have a few modern pieces, and no huge desire for more, and defiantly not huge steam like a Big Boy, etc.; but already know two of my "new" medium-large choices would be no-go due to curve limits.  I have "all three" old track types in seperate loops on at ground level, and one more elevated 0-27 all on a 4.5x9 for a deep dish spaghetti bowl. Most of old the 0-27 and some old Super O (0-36) is there for much the same reason, "family track". but a larger loop still could have been worked in, and been a touch nicer, allowed bigger locos and/or allow more "scale" loco choices as even small ones are going to have greater restrictions in curves.

   Wanting to run fat wheel tin plate and also run smaller wheel flanges on the squared Super O rails, had me glad I had squared tube at least, but I was also removing the Super O switches a year or so after the install, to pass fat wheels and shoes by too.. sigh. I was aware and warned too; hindsight is a bit... ...too late.

Much of my being satisfied with old track went out the window the first time I added and used a new 3' section. On my ceiling layout, much of the track got soldered together to kill off pin issues as they occured. Another $40 in new track would have paid for itself easy vs repair times, even at only $5 an hour, plus lost performance, plus pita...

...just sayin', new metal is awsome & think about future possibilities

 

ASYMAIR95,

The room looks good.

Did you ever determine if the room is on its' on breaker?

You have assessed the infrastructure concerns. Identify the wall stud spacing now to the build easier when start.

I see that your are thinking of a wide table of about 42". View some of the photos that Dewey and others posted of their attic layouts. I don't think it's really necessary to have a table that wide when doing an around the room. You can create a peninsula, say for a yard or engine service area (as others have suggested) if you want one at a later time.

Around the room employs a different point of view or visual perspective to work with than a table layout. using the lower table height will permit building flats and scenic items along remaining vertical on the knee wall sides of the room. ~ 8" I believe, from your measurements.

You could save a lot of time using Evapo-Rust on the track. True value and auto stores should have the gallon. It will clean everything off and not harm the insulating paper. Soak, rinse with water, let dry, done.

Thinking about a track plan, I went back and viewed the layout that posted the link to on YouTube. The big difference with what you can do using an around the room is yours will be a stretched or expanded version. You will be able to have scenic areas separated. City, suburbs, woods, fields, hills, mountains. Perhaps traveling from one city to another. You could have a pseudo logging scene and the log loader and then travel to the other side to a sawmill/lumber yard scene.

Anyway, even if it's not deeply developed, having a reason for a train to run around adds to the viewing enjoyment.

Also, don't let the door stop you from thinking about going completely around the room. A lift out is not difficult to build. It's like a removable bridge. The track plan on the ends could designed now to permit changing the route or adding the change to a line in the future. (back to keep it simple and get trains running now)

Thanks for sharing your build project. It helps others and anyone with a layout will admit that this is a fun part process.

Here’s an idea for a layout that would give the maximum length of around the wall run with an allowance for the swing of the door.  The area behind the door could be for stub sidings.  I’m assuming a centered three foot door opening.

 I made a few assumptions about distance constraints.  I’m 5-10, and my greatest reach to set a train back on the track is about 33 inches,  given  a three foot high table.  That means a 3’ wide table. 

The sketch is based on  a continuous outside loop with a drawbridge or lift out section at the door.  It might be easier to have it be a hinged drop-down.  The two inner tracks could continue across the doorway on a 15 to 20 inch wide bridge. 

 Alternatively, the two inner tracks could converge with the outer track to cross the bridge, but then when running three trains, you’d need some traffic  control.  Of course that wouldn’t work if you want to start three trains and let them run.

 Did  I saw you mention that most of your equipment could run on  O-27 ?  With O-31 on the outer loop and O-27 on the inner, there are a lot of options to cross the doorway. 

 You didn’t say whether you must have a way to reverse trains.  There would be room for two loops at the window end of the room.

 The upper left hand corner shows space for a coal elevator and log loader.  You would have to close the door for access there.

 If you want to pursue the idea of a bridge across the doorway, I’d be glad to sketch a few specific possibilities and give you some rough specs for a drop-down section.

 Now I’m asking myself why am I doing this.  I think it’s because I enjoy working out layout problems but don’t have the room to build what I design.  I’ve designed much of the track layout on a famous HO model railroad club but don’t have the skills for actually building the track.  So I’m glad to do anything I can to help with  design .

 Malcolm Laughlin

Today I went to Lowe’s and started purchasing lumber and supplies. 

5 sheets osb

10 2x4 studs for legs

20 1x4 for the frame.

paint

drywall mud

14ga wire red, black, grey

wire taps

glue

screws

foam

And some other things I can’t remember right now

Mlaughlin, I’m thinking to start I would like to stick with a simple horse shoe design. Later I could possibly add on and do the lift gate. Your layout plan looks nice though. 

Moonman, I’m trying to picture a thinner bench top with an Island. Are you saying the peninsula would come out from the window area? This would make three long table tops, but just not as wide? How would I run multiple trains on a layout like this? If I did 32” wide I could run an outside loop of o31 and an inside of o27, but I’m not sure it would leave much room for sidings, accessories, and buildings.

The attic is on one breaker. There really is nothing drawing much power up there. Just a tv that doesn’t get used.

Thanks for the tip on evaporust, will give it a try.

Will check on the stud spacing. Will we be fastening the bench to the wall?

I looked up homasote at Home Depot and it is very expensive. I’m going to go with some cork roadbed from Midwest cork and paint/ballast it.

Forgot to mention my total at Lowe’s today was $280.

 

With kids aged 4 and 7 you are limited in the depth of the layout.  I would suggest no more than 2 feet. 

I would set the height at no more than 30 inches so the youngest can see and operated trains without needing a stool.

You need to have two mainlines (i.e., to kids) that will be operated (read that as race) trains independently,  

Add sidings and passing tracks along the inside edge for operating accessories.  They will need to be in easy reach of the youngest.

Any manual switch will also need to be within reach.

Keep scenery to a minimum.  It will just get in they way.  A few Plastiville buildings with a farm and a road with cars would good.

In a few years you'll be building a new layout with a pair of older kids.  From age 6 to 18 we had 6 different or "enhanced" layouts.  The first was 9' by 5', and the last was 16' by 11'.  Aren't full basements wonderful?

Jan

ASYMAIR95,

You are moving right along - so, here it is - I was going to suggest a table build style borrowing elements from L-Girder construction.

Use pylons for wall supports and L-girders without joists for mounting the deck. This keeps everything open under the table, permits standing right up to the edge, and provides a thin edge for perhaps a hardboard or Masonite fascia.

I'll attach some photos of some examples of the elements below. I would have sent this stuff to you if you had an email in your profile.

Notice the spacer board on the wall to match the thickness of the baseboard that provides and even mounting surface.

The width of the L-girders only has to get within about 10" of the end of 3/4" deck material. Therefore the table width determines the length of the top rail.

The deck material is fastened from the bottom through the top of the L-girder. Drill a hole beforehand. Then, the top surface is smooth.

Pull the wire runs before installing the decking. Sounds like you've intended on doing that.

What do you think about this style? 

 

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Here’s an idea for a layout that would give the maximum length of around the wall run with an allowance for the swing of the door.  The area behind the door could be for stub sidings.  I’m assuming a centered three foot door opening.

 I made a few assumptions about distance constraints.  I’m 5-10, and my greatest reach to set a train back on the track is about 33 inches,  given  a three foot high table.  That means a 3’ wide table. 

The sketch is based on  a continuous outside loop with a drawbridge or lift out section at the door.  It might be easier to have it be a hinged drop-down.  The two inner tracks could continue across the doorway on a 15 to 20 inch wide bridge. 

 Alternatively, the two inner tracks could converge with the outer track to cross the bridge, but then when running three trains, you’d need some traffic  control.  Of course that wouldn’t work if you want to start three trains and let them run.

 Did  I saw you mention that most of your equipment could run on  O-27 ?  With O-31 on the outer loop and O-27 on the inner, there are a lot of options to cross the doorway. 

 You didn’t say whether you must have a way to reverse trains.  There would be room for two loops at the window end of the room.

 The upper left hand corner shows space for a coal elevator and log loader.  You would have to close the door for access there.

 If you want to pursue the idea of a bridge across the doorway, I’d be glad to sketch a few specific possibilities and give you some rough specs for a drop-down section.

 Now I’m asking myself why am I doing this.  I think it’s because I enjoy working out layout problems but don’t have the room to build what I design.  I’ve designed much of the track layout on a famous HO model railroad club but don’t have the skills for actually building the track.  So I’m glad to do anything I can to help with  design .

 Malcolm Laughlin

Malcolm,

I like this design with branch lines and a mainline. He is going more the for '50's style and running his family trains. A difference with O gauge operators is that many prefer display type to operational running, meaning that multiple trains can run simultaneously unattended.

Here is Asymair95's room. The grid is 6". I am assuming a 30" door.

He will be running an O31 loop and an O27 track loop.

See what comes to mind. We'll see what he has for inventory and switches. Out and back with an r-loop at each side near the door, a continuous loop, ?

perhaps a few spurs for a yard to park some engines with kill switches. Conventional transformer controlled operation.

Was going to get going on the construction today, but I have a kid home from school today with the stomach bug...up vomiting all night long, fun.

Moonman, that benchwork is beautiful, but I’m not crazy about the idea of putting holes in the wall like that. I was thinking of just doing a simple table type with a rectangle frame, and 2x4 legs with everything screwed together for easy disassembly if the need arises.

Jan, my kids will be supervised at all times when operating the layout. These trains are family heirlooms and my kids are...less than gentle with their toys. I guess they are typical little boys.

Asymair95 posted:

Was going to get going on the construction today, but I have a kid home from school today with the stomach bug...up vomiting all night long, fun.

Moonman, that benchwork is beautiful, but I’m not crazy about the idea of putting holes in the wall like that. I was thinking of just doing a simple table type with a rectangle frame, and 2x4 legs with everything screwed together for easy disassembly if the need arises.

Jan, my kids will be supervised at all times when operating the layout. These trains are family heirlooms and my kids are...less than gentle with their toys. I guess they are typical little boys.

I get the grandkids when that happens.

The holes are no big deal - you just did a kitchen. The pylons can be 8' apart.

Cut a bunch of pieces and assemble them. Deck screws and drill and screw gun. They dissemble just as easily. A screw gun and a sawzall can do a lot of work quickly when it's demolition time.

The big advantage is the open area with no legs underneath.

It's your Benchwork, do it as you please. Just putting it out there.

Help your child feel better, trains tables are a low priority. That was not a fun night.

For kill switches, you can use 364C switches, but they're expensive - $6 to 10 each.  I find that about one of three does not work.  My preference is for an old fashinoned knife switch, but I don't care what it looks liek as long as it operates well.

For power control on sidings try these mini toggle switches. momentary buttons are for uncouplers.

Available on Ebay, cheap and simple, the leads make for easy wiring.  I run all conventional and use them to shut power to blocks and sidings. They are very reliable.

Thank you for the tips guys. 

Mlaughlin, I believe I have one of those switches. I also have a few Lionel push button types.

Rsjb, that is a nice layout you have there. No toggles for me on the switches, I have the original switch boxes with lights in them for my 1121 switches. I might use a toggle like that for lighting though. I would like some lights for night ops. I really like your control panel, very neat looking.

That's my kind of railroad - all track and trains, never mind the scenery.  I'm for modeling the railroad to the edge of the roadbed.

  From childhood experience, I have to say 42" on height is way too high for kids. That's a adults layouts height, likely a tall one too... imo anyhow. The repercussions will be a need for stools to stand on, and a box of Band-Aids for when they fall off the stools, which in thier excitement WILL happen, more than once or twice too. 

  My elders were always one step ahead of the game.Though the cast train was waiting for me to be born, Gramps also purposly bought me some cheap Scouts for me to destroy when unattended, so I felt the loss of a broken toy and learned to mind my things better. Cast steamers with spur gears vs worms were also chosen because I couldn't do much harm to them; the back up   Only one of his Grandkids got a really nice FM diesel when young "the most careful one" (a girl , who still likes her trains; but she never did get "GG-1 certified" by Gramps. An aunt and I were the only ones he trusted running GG-1s ) 

  I was also included in every build and repair I'd sit still for; which was a lot. The interest was used as a regular incentive to "act right" too. Encouraged behaviors and personal goals reached, often got me some new unannounced "freedom" on Gramps layout, maybe a surprise of a new car or accessory, etc.

  Transformer breakers were tested often and I was shown red hot wires and meltdowns too, so I understood the danger of neglecting a short pretty well. Once you get that first stove blister, you tend to be more careful with "hot"   

  By about second grade I was phasing transformers with phone help and could pretty much do as I pleased with them all. Not all kids mature that soon, but the point is; don't underestimate them. If they do consistantly show the ability to be careful, act "right", and make good choices in general, you should reward it, and toy trains privileges can be an excellent motivation.

 

mlaughlinnyc posted:

That's my kind of railroad - all track and trains, never mind the scenery. I'm for modeling the railroad to the edge of the roadbed.

I'm in favor of that right-up-front track system, too, but I have managed to squeeze in a little bit of scenery, as well, just to add to the moment when the trains are nearing or passing by, right at the edge. I wanted guests and myself as close to the trains as possible.

..reach-in and touch them close...

FrankM, MoonTownship, USA

Wow...that is amazing! Beautiful.

  I model to the edge too, but if I were to have kids running regularly, to stop dives from accidental or careless highspeed rollovers, I'd have a good sized space at the curves bordering the edges, or put a decent guard rail up.

Leaving some space of a few inches away on any portion facing you allows you to lean over to grab this or that while a train is still running. Too close, and the train will likely clip your body as it passes..... unless maybe your real skinny and shirtless  

Reaching over without leaning is very uncomfortable; an unatural postion.

Asymair95 posted:

Wow...that is amazing! Beautiful.

Thank You, very much!

A little trick I use when running the 10 trains (using TMCC) and one trolley is that when a train, steam locomotive or diesel, approaches where a person, adult or child, is standing, usually looking and gesturing, I sound the horns long and steady, warning of their approach, as well as adding a little 'theater" to the moment. Everybody gets the message. I have not had a single locomotive or car knocked off its tracks, not even bumped, since the first layout of 1995.

I will, however, at times, stop a train right in front of a guest if it seems  they'd like to give it a touch or a little caress, which has sometimes been the case. I liked everything right up front and available, to scrutiny and touch, as much as possible.

FrankM

P.S. I want the layout to give people joy. I am not touch-me-not about the layout or its trains at all. I like the smiles the best. Beyond that, I do not spend energy worrying about accidents.

I have been fooling around with layout dimensions and I think this gives me the most bang for my buck. anyone have any objections? Was thinking the angled section could be used for a marshaling yard. The walkways are 3' up against the wall, and 2' between the tables.

Ok,

The only concern that I have is what happens when you stand in the aisle from the center to the windows? Does the slope of the ceiling force you to bend over?

I flipped your photo and used it as a background image in SCARM and tried to recreate the tables. The walls are the blue polygon outline.

Then, using circles and squares, (well, only circles), placed O31 circles to check for fitment.

You can put rectangle footprints in for accessories and buildings, then work the track around those.

The yard could be a little tricky on the triangle. I may try a wye on the center island and perhaps the yard in there.

Then, work the O27 line in. 

SCARM now has 6"(imperial grid) option. If you have 5", it's an older beta version.

That table design gives me interesting ideas.  Let's check your specs before I play more with this.

1. You want to run three trains independently.  That means three loops.  Is it OK if loops cross w/ 45 or 90 degree crossings ?

2.  Does on O-31 and two O-27 loops meet the spec ?

3. should there be crossovers so taht all loops connect ?

4. do you want to have a wye or reverse loop ?

5. How do you feel about O-31/O-27 transition sections.

Malcol;m 
LAughlin

 

 

 

 

 

Just a thought, instead of 2 small peninsulas, why not one wide peninsula that would allow for a great variety of track configurations.  The two small peninsulas (and walk ways) take up a lot of space, and don't give you many track options.

If the one large peninsula (76in below, but could be shortened) is slid toward the door, it would also allow for a bump out in the top section to allow for more space for a reverse loop, wider radius track, scenery, accessories, etc.  

There is a slight reach issue on the right side of the big peninsula, for my money, in that space, I'd be ok sacrificing the reach there to gain a large area as shown below.  Yard tracks/engine house, etc could be down by the door.

Just throwing some ideas out there...

Thanks. 

 

 

Here is an idea - 

I inserted a lionel dealer display plan for a D-264 onto the peninsula.  Added some track options.  You can have 4 trains running on independent loops.  Has some crossings for interest. Space for industry sidings. A yard for train building. 

Granted, my "work of art" above is not to scale, so my track fitting is just a guess.   Just sending an idea out there to see if this is going down the right track for your end goal or not.

 You could add access below the mountain on the D-264 to gain reach access if needed

D-264 below:

 

Moonman posted:...

You can put rectangle footprints in for accessories and buildings, then work the track around those.

I found that system to be very helpful, often...This corner trailer- park is an example. The Masonite baseplate was measured and configured and then crafted off the layout, once the track was configured for this wide curve, and then, screwed in place. You may be able to see the Masonite baseplate's edge temporarily exposed here and there..

Across the three-mainline tracks at this corner curve is this neighborhood, planned and crafted using the same procedure = baseplate configured in; then, the craftwork completed upon each baseplate, and each individual project affixed into place...

The super-advantage to using baseplates everywhere I can is that if I change my mind about emplacement of a vignette, all I have to do is unscrew it (if it is screwed down) and lift it out, with ZERO loss of ingredients or damage to the structures

FrankM, Moon's son..

JD2035,

I was originally going to have one large peninsula in the middle instead of two smaller ones. I was worried about not being able to reach things though. What do guys typically do on larger areas of real estate like that? I really like your layout ideas though, I would much prefer something along those lines. It adds lots of interest, but still leaves room for accessories. I don’t have that many switches at the moment though, and that plan has lots of them...lol. Here is a pic of what I currently have:

7 o27 switches, 4 o31 switches and one crossover that I believe is for o31. I have tons of track, but definite have twice as much o27 as I do o31.

Moonman,

Thank you for that plan. I made the aisle 3’ from the wall so I wouldn’t bump my head on the ceiling. After seeing JD2035 larger peninsula idea, I’m leaning more towards that.  How large should I go? I can fit a full 8’ in there and still have a 2’ aisle on the door side and window side.

Mlaughlin,

Yes, all those things sound great. Would the crossover require one train to wait while one passed? My engines aren’t the most reliable, I wouldn’t trust them to start back up again after a mementary stop. What is a o27/o31 transition? Is this a piece I would need to fabricate?

Thank you for all the ideas and help. I got a big box from woodlandscenics today. I’ve also been busy on eBay replacing all the accessories we had to sell a few years back. Still breaks my heart to this day. So far I have scored a Lionel 24” metal bridge, gateman, and switch tower.

What is everyone’s thoughts on the Midwest cork roadbed?

In my sketch, without the yard, there are six LH switches, six RH switches, one 45 degree crossover, and two 90 degree crossovers.  I believe the D-264 is approximately 9x5, but that is using Super 0 track which I believe is 0-36.  You would have to modify the plan for 027-031, but you might still need the same amount of space to ensure that the grade isn't too steep.

I think the peninsula should be 5-6 ft wide (allowing 2.5 - 3.0ft reach from either side), depending on the elements you want to fit inside the space.

There is a buy/sell forum here, I have had good luck acquiring additional pieces I needed for reasonable prices from people who enjoy helping another guy out.  With this size of a layout, you may want to get a bunch of 022 O gauge switches that you can supply with fixed voltage and switch remotely.

Well, you have a switch shortage in O31. Anyhow, we can work what you have.

I just feel like the O27 looks to snappy in the curves. It's a little more delicate to work with. The lower rail height looks good.

I would say lean over a table or something and see where the reach is comfortable to fiddle with a train.

I like the 2 peninsulas  for boys. They can be in different locations and operating different accessories or just having their own viewing spot.

So, the main loop looks like it will be in O27 and the secondary loop in O31. We need some spurs for accessories.

Also, consider that you can shape the deck in curves and still have the rectangular/angles framing underneath. Just allow for enough overhang to cut the curve with a jigsaw. Something about corners bugs me.

let us know what you decide for the peninsulas/width.

 

After leaning over some correct height tables, I would like to make the peninsula 7’ across. I can fit 8’ but it’s not possible for me to reach that far. The depth of the peninsula can stay the same as it was with the original plan. It will be tough to reach the area behind the peninsula, but I will just leave that somewhat barren, or put a farm there.

Thanks for the heads up on the buy sell area on the forum. Will stop by and put some requests in.

i will definitely leave some room around the outside of the table for jigsaw trimming.

 

 

I posted a new bench design with the 7’ middle table. It can be slid one way or the other to allow for more room against the door or window side of the room.

The dust is still settling, but the benchwork is up.

 

I had enough room to add another bench against the wall. Here is the plan with measurements.

Was hoping the pros here could help design a good postwar layout. Tonight the first coat of paint goes on.

When a train derails on the several feet of track that is more than a five foot reach from the corner of the aisle, what is your plan for getting to it.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

When a train derails on the several feet of track that is more than a five foot reach from the corner of the aisle, what is your plan for getting to it.

...and that is the only place a train will derail (unless you have tunnels,  of course).

FrankM

I will have to do the crawl of shame I guess.

ASYMAIR95, if you close the attic door and notice the room is getting cold, you may have to put a few 1"or 2" dia. holes in the layout against the wall above the baseboard radiator. Sorry I just started following your project this morning. I would have suggested leaving a gap between the wall and the layout above that radiator. Radiators have to move the air in the room through them, by means of convection, as quickly as possible to heat the room at the same speed as the room with the thermostat in it. If you don't allow for the heat to raise, the heat will be trapped under the layout. You may have to put a small fan under there to help move the heat into the room. Which ever you do, it will help to keep the tracks from expanding and contracting over the radiator. Also, if you hang curtains off the front of the layout, keep a gap between the floor and the curtains so that the cold air in the room can move to the radiator.

You can also just add an access hatch in the middle of the big peninsula that allows you to reach all areas. 

Looks like you have a great space to run some trains!

 

Dave, I don’t run the heat much up there to save heating oil. The rising heat from downstairs keeps it pretty warm up there.

2035, I thought about putting a hatch in, but it seems like a lot of work. I’m thinking I’ll just put some plasticville houses in that area to take up space. I’ll keep the track shenanigan to a minimum out there too.

The first coat of paint last night.

Watching the birds at the feeder from the train room

I throw an idea out there for you.  Sorry I don't do the track planning software.  I included a hatch (green square) as part of the plan.  Redline is the trolley line going through the plasticville city.  Not sure how you feel about a lift bridge/swing bridge/duckunder, but that aisle is begging for a double bridge!  

What elements do you like and dislike in the below idea?

 

JD2035RR posted:

I throw an idea out there for you.  Sorry I don't do the track planning software.  I included a hatch (green square) as part of the plan.  Redline is the trolley line going through the plasticville city.  Not surehow you feel about a lift bridge/swing bridge/duckunder, but that aisle is begging for a double bridge!  ..

The only advice I could offer you regarding lift/swing/duckunder bridges on layouts is that I have noticed many postings, here and on other forums, stating that the hobbyists got real tired of them fast, eventually even removing them, in several cases. I wouldn't even consider having one.

As evidence, if you take notice of the line of Second-level bridges and arch-unders in the foreground of this mid-section to my layout......I had considered having a duckunder there, but decided against it,  knowing we would have plenty of company and that the chances of somebody, especially children and older, less flexible adults, bumping heads into such a structure, I decided it was best to have guests able to walk right up to the bridges and peer over and beyond them into the valley beyond, and up into the hills of the Second and Third levels beyond, at 14' distance away, approx.... 

Of course, if having a moveable bridge arrangement interests and amuses you, then doing what you feel would be enjoyable for you, of course, is a big part of the adventure of creating a layout.

FrankM

2035,

I really like that style of layout. I would like to avoid the swing bridge though as monsoon said.

I do like the double cross over, sidings, marshling yard, trolly area...basically everything.

I would like another basic loop around the perimeter, and a bridge or two, as well as a tunnel.

Monsoon,

That layout is a work of art.

Good start with base color - now use other earth colors and patchy areas of a second coat of that color. may want to wait until you get a track plan.

Do you have any half-straights and half-curves in O27?

Oh, no one answered your question about the Midwest cork - if it is in your budget - use it. You will have a very quiet layout and make the experience more enjoyable.  Painting the cork with a single coat of gray will look like ballast.

it may be a little late, but angling the corners off on the peninsula will make a more pleasing look and a comfortable aisle. You won't give up much useful real estate.

Asymair95 posted:

Moonson,

That layout is a work of art.

Thank you very much. You have me smiling ear-to-ear!

Moonman,

I don’t have any half sections. I was going to buy several from tin man, as well as some insulated sections, and several power tap sections. 

I caulked the seams last night and put another coat of green on. Going to fabricate and paint a perimeter around the control panel tonight. Need to finish up cleaning the rest of my track and settle on a track plan. 

I’m thinking of putting push button switches around the perimeter of the layout near different operating accessories and lights for the kids to press. I was going to put them all on the control panel, but thought it would be more fun for the kids to be able to press various buttons throughout the layout and operate things. 

Anyone have a go to switch they use for something like that? 

Ok,

I am working on some track ideas.  just trying to get to know your inventory in O27. You can always cut the long straights, but the curves are a little tricky. It's very limiting to work with a full curve.

Door bell buttons are the simplest for momentary on.  There are big colored and lighted ones, but keep it simple. They like the doorbell buttons with a label.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-H...p2060353.m1438.l2649

I bought these.  They come with small micro switches that are easy to wire.  I liked the look and will take a lot of abuse being arcade buttons.  They also have lighted ones.

Do you plan to run your trains conventionally? TMCC/Legacy? DCS? Lionchief (+)/RC?

 

 

Moonman,

thank you, that looks like a good start. I like the cross section of track. I can always buy more track, or specialty pieces if need be. I was thinking of getting another four way, and an X section also. Looking at an auction for four more switches too. I just came in from cleaning the last of my o27 track. Tomorrow I will start on the o31. It should go quick as it is in much better shape.

2035,

Thank you for the button link. My only concern with those is they look like I have to drill a fairly large hole to mount them. I would like to mount them on the facia board around the circumference of the layout. This is also a support board though and is relatively weak being only 1x3 ferring strip. I’m afraid putting a big hole like that through it will weaken it too much. The door bell idea sounds good though. I can just screw it to the outside and drill a small hole for wires to pass through.

This will be a conventional powered layout. I have a zw and a few older Lionel transformers for lighting, accessories, and powering sidings and such.

Do you guys like the woodland scenics incline/decline risers for elevating the track? Good bad?

I think Moorman's suggestion of cutting off the corners is a good one.  You're going to find that the square corners, as you have them now, will jump out and bump into you every chance they get.....LOL

JD2035RR posted:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-H...p2060353.m1438.l2649

I bought these.  They come with small micro switches that are easy to wire.  I liked the look and will take a lot of abuse being arcade buttons.  They also have lighted ones.

Do you plan to run your trains conventionally? TMCC/Legacy? DCS? Lionchief (+)/RC?

 

 

JD2035RR - Nice looking button. What I cannot find is the electrical specifications for the switch. I do not know the standards for arcade electronics. Is the voltage/amperage stamped on the bottom of the microswitch?  Do you know from any other source?

Asymair95 - It's an 1 1/8" hole that is needed. It won't hurt the strength as you won't be loading the weight to extremes. A wobbly 1" speed bore and your done. They are cool looking.

I would use graduated trestles with a roadbed track, so that if I were not happy with the track plan or would get bored with it, it would be easier to make changes to the layout and try some new ideas. Once I felt I was happy with the layout after running it for some time, then I would plaster in some woodland scenic inclines. You can also look through an elevated trestle if it runs in the foreground of a layout. Plastered in elevated track is better in the background of a layout. A word of caution though, a layout can get very heavy. In a basement weight is not a problem. In an attic space, the weight and vibration can become an issue, for the ceiling in the room below it. If that room was meant to be a living space as part of the original building plan, it will have floor joist and support more weight then a room that was created later from an attic space on top of ceiling joist. If there is a supporting wall under an attic room, weight is not much of an issue.

new track ideas - fixed siding directions - 2 -O27 switches left - accessory sidings in - a passing siding -

added O track - whimsical, but will teach the boys switch control - non-derail will be helpful as they can run multiple routes by changing one switch

kept switches and sidings near the edge - that's where derails may happen and accessory operation may need assistance

added a couple of two curve tunnels - kids like to get at eye level and watch the train in the tunnel

you can decide how to deploy the two remaining switches - there is space for sidings

SCARM menu bar > Tools > Parts List will create that to compare to your inventory - an O27 cross, some O27 half straights and a cut track is all that is needed

Oh, I like the location of the control panel - good view of most of the layout without rubber necking

Try running the basic simulator to test for play value - it's cool in 3D

 

 

Moonman posted:

JD2035RR posted:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-H...p2060353.m1438.l2649

I bought these.  They come with small micro switches that are easy to wire.  I liked the look and will take a lot of abuse being arcade buttons.  They also have lighted ones.

Do you plan to run your trains conventionally? TMCC/Legacy? DCS? Lionchief (+)/RC?

 

 

JD2035RR - Nice looking button. What I cannot find is the electrical specifications for the switch. I do not know the standards for arcade electronics. Is the voltage/amperage stamped on the bottom of the microswitch?  Do you know from any other source?

Asymair95 - It's an 1 1/8" hole that is needed. It won't hurt the strength as you won't be loading the weight to extremes. A wobbly 1" speed bore and your done. They are cool looking.

That's a rather large hole to put in a 1" x 3" furring strip, which is not the best grade of lumber to start with.  If he is going with these switches, he would be better served to use a 1 1/8" hole saw.  It will give him a nice clean hole, eliminating the tarot on the back side of the board.  

I found these on Evilbay.  The require a half inch hole. Here's the link.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-5-PCS-Push-Power-Button-Green-16mm-Switch-Momentary-Squareness/302604396132?hash=item4674a0a664:g:zGAAAOSw38BaXZ-x

Thank you for the layout update, that looks nice. It will definitely give me a good start to get going.

The graduated trestle set is a good idea, I will look for some on eBay.

I will also look around on eBay for some buttons, and track cross overs. 

Thank you so much for the help and ideas.

Moonman posted:

JD2035RR posted:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-H...p2060353.m1438.l2649

I bought these.  They come with small micro switches that are easy to wire.  I liked the look and will take a lot of abuse being arcade buttons.  They also have lighted ones.

Do you plan to run your trains conventionally? TMCC/Legacy? DCS? Lionchief (+)/RC?

 

 

JD2035RR - Nice looking button. What I cannot find is the electrical specifications for the switch. I do not know the standards for arcade electronics. Is the voltage/amperage stamped on the bottom of the microswitch?  Do you know from any other source?

Asymair95 - It's an 1 1/8" hole that is needed. It won't hurt the strength as you won't be loading the weight to extremes. A wobbly 1" speed bore and your done. They are cool looking.

The switch itself doesn't say. I emailed the eBay seller who said that the specs say 125ac and 15 amps. 

Asymair95 posted:

Thank you for the layout update, that looks nice. It will definitely give me a good start to get going.

The graduated trestle set is a good idea, I will look for some on eBay.

I will also look around on eBay for some buttons, and track cross overs. 

Thank you so much for the help and ideas.

I meant to say that the control panel location does not require rubber necking.

Here's what a #110 set would like with a 317 bridge along the long wall. Starts in the curve and ends in the opposite curve to allow for the bridge.

Forum member RogerPete builds a Christmas Display each year. If you watch the table on the far wall in the video you can see what mottled paint turns out for the base.

He just used what they had at the historic group and it turned out well.

Just wanted to point out what you can achieve with some sloppy painting and nothing fancy.

I had to dig to find my bookmark for this post, hence the delay since the baseboard painting post.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/40pcs...p2057872.m2749.l2649

I found some switches I like. Think they will work fine for the kids to play with.

Moonman,

I really like the trestle and bridge. I have a bridge already and will be looking for a trestle set soon. I would also like to add a girder bridge on a small rise, maybe an inch or two. Also purchased the Midwest cork roadbed.

Was thinking of adding an elevated trestle loop over the track on the big middle section where the 8 is. What do you think?

Asymair95 posted:

Moonman,

I really like the trestle and bridge. I have a bridge already and will be looking for a trestle set soon. I would also like to add a girder bridge on a small rise, maybe an inch or two. Also purchased the Midwest cork roadbed.

Was thinking of adding an elevated trestle loop over the track on the big middle section where the 8 is. What do you think?

That would depend on the boys. That would be too difficult of a train to play with for my grandson. He is 6.  he does well getting cars and engines railed on deck height, but sometimes will miss a truck.

I only coach them on their train table. What is on it is free game.

If you limit the voltage to the elevated train, it could be a no touch, run only line for them.

Well, you have the run under the window and along the short length wall to create a low rise up and down. 

6-12754 Trestle set  It has all of the track clips -

Asymair95 posted:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/40pcs...p2057872.m2749.l2649

I found some switches I like. Think they will work fine for the kids to play with.

Did you notice that they are latching?  On will stay on until pressed again. Something will get cooked. Good switch for building lights on or off or motorized animated things, like lemax Ferris wheels and such, or the beacon tower, the radar tower.

We used the momentary switches on the museum layout with a relay. They can push and hold or continuous push, but it's only activated once until it cycles completely.

Those are good to have on hand.

You'll find with stuff for trains, that when you find something that you like for a purpose, you should get extras. You will want another one later.

Thank you for that trestle link. 

I did get the latching for lights and such. There are a few accessories I would like to run on those too. Need to get some momentary on buttons too for other things like you said.

I think the elevated trestle would be OK as long as it was a small motorized unit like the trolly or gang car. I wouldn’t let them put larger trains up there for safety reasons.

Last night I finished up cleaning all the o27 track and switches. Today I will start on the o31 stuff. Should go quick.

On my o42 switches the red and green lanterns lost their plastic colored lenses. I found them in the bottom of the box, but how do I get them back in? Crazy glue?

Thank you again.

The arcade buttons should not be latching.

Prefabbed metal reinforcement plates and button mounting L brackets are available through arcade suppliers. (my old suppler is out of businesses). (The hole is a bit large for easily drilling your own in metal)(the mounting brackets are usually used inside the game/vending cabnets for programing, etc.)

I can attest to duck unders and lifts getting old fast.  You'll end up ducking anyhow to avoid lifting, smashing fingers, running a train off a cliff, etc..

PITA enough to scrap the yard on a 15x30 oval for a dogbone.

If I did another out of necessity, the bridge (or hatch) would drop down vs lift. 

But, that same basic smaller square style can be had in arcade form too.

The arcade buttons are made for abuse if proper. They rival the #90 for durability.

Congratulations on getting your benchwork roughed out.  As Frank (Moonman) suggested ease those sharp hurtful exterior corners before much railroad work is done. Also avoid a duckunder ( if considered) by installing a piano hinged drop section which you can disguise as a plate girder bridge. Jim Barrett did a video[#11) of "how to" as well as parts,etc. You will seriously regret a duckunder as others have said, yet it will provide much flexibility in track planning for longer runs. My drop section pictured below  was built from Jim's long ago article in O-Gauge Magazine and is rescued from two of my former layouts.   

Wow, that is impressive. As a newbie, I’m not sure my skills are such to tackle a project like that.

Picked up four more o27 switches today, $8 a piece...did pretty good. This brings me up to 11 o27 switches. Also picked up another cross over for o27, and a girder bridge.

Answer to your thoughts about an elevated line - yes, if it has somewhere to go - two small hills do that with a station and a platform

You can cut your own support pylons from wood and paint them for a clean look

If you want some SCARM buildings to play with, search the net for SCARM Hi-Railers. Forum member John D. and his father own the site.

Save the file and open in a second instance of SCARM. Then copy and paste into the layout SCARM. Set the properties for height and such, rotate for position.

I also found the O27 bridge for the trestle run. The other was an O #317, which was too long. 

It's amazing how you bring these things to life, Carl.  Great job!

JD2035RR posted:

It's amazing how you bring these things to life, Carl.  Great job!

Thank you. I give credit to others for creating the structures. They have some talent.

The 3D is really helpful to portray an idea.  

Moonman posted:

JD2035RR posted:

It's amazing how you bring these things to life, Carl.  Great job!

Thank you. I give credit to others for creating the structures. They have some talent.

The 3D is really helpful to portray an idea.  

I've tried scarm on my home computer, and there's a bit of a learning curve.  You make it seem easy.

That looks great. Will post back when all my track is cleaned and ready for install. Any chance of two outside loops? Maybe one in o31 on the outside, and one in o27 on the inside? The village area looks great, I like the raised trestle, it’s really going to make it look nice. The bridge I have is a 314 I believe. Is it too big for this layout? Maybe I could just go up 3” instead of the full 4” to shorten the incline and decline run? 

Received my 128 operating newsstand  in the mail today. Of course it didn’t work...lol. Been futzing with it all night trying to get the spring tension, and coil air gap right. The problem I was having was the string kept jumping off the pulley. I ended up gluing a guide around the string to keep it from whipping so much and falling off. Works pretty good now. It’s slow, but dependable now.

Also received my operating baggage terminal today. It didn’t work either. That’s tomorrow’s project. It hums and vibrates a bit, but the carts don’t move very well. I adjusted the screws on the bottom, but that didn’t do much. 

Thank you again for the track plan, looks great. 

ASYMAIR95,

I would not put a double main. The track to scenery ration would go to high, the curves diameters are awkward to make interesting and overall would take away from your goal.

You will find that the accessories and buildings take a lot of real estate. Just start placing them on the table to see for yourself.

I like the full trestle set to put on show on that long wall. It's rather boring if you don't.

Post new topics on tuning these accessories. There is a wealth of experience and knowledge on how to make them work reliably. There is also, Olsen's, which has a library of service documents that sometimes have tuning and modification tips. Here is the 128 newsstand. The string coming off is due to too high of a voltage. You'll find that each accessory has a sweet spot for voltage. Many times you can videos on YouTube of them working.

For the newer accessories, viewing the Lionel parts diagram and getting assistance from forum members definitely helps.

Trees, you cannot have enough trees. Bottle brush trees work to get going and are relatively inexpensive.

Don't lose sight of your goal -get the heirloom trains up and running - keep it simple to accomplish it. You and the boys will want to build another one together.

here's the latest version of the layout. Added another siding to the O layout using one of the switches that you acquired.

The Rico station silhouetted against the window light would look nice. it is both freight and passenger.

 

Looks great. Is there a go to place for cheap trees? I did some looking and they are pretty expensive.

Like that layout, think it will work great for the look I’m going for. I bought a 110 trestle set last night still in the original sealed bags. They are brown ones, but have all the required clips. Is there a trestle set that Lionel made that is just the raised sections, not the incline/decline? 

Thank you for the accessory tips. 

Asymair95 posted:

Looks great. Is there a go to place for cheap trees? I did some looking and they are pretty expensive.

Like that layout, think it will work great for the look I’m going for. I bought a 110 trestle set last night still in the original sealed bags. They are brown ones, but have all the required clips. Is there a trestle set that Lionel made that is just the raised sections, not the incline/decline? 

Thank you for the accessory tips. 

Cheap trees - If you are looking for evergreen, the best tip I have heard is to pick up an old artificial Christmas tree, and cut the branches into varying sizes of trees, and shape the needles accordingly.

The Lionel 111 trestle set is the elevated (all approximately 4 - 7/8 inches high I believe). However, you can certainly make your own out of 1x4s that could allow for greater clearance below.

 

   

That’s a great tip, will check out Craigslist for someone giving one away. The wife is going to love me. Every other day a new box is showing up. The only thing saving me from certain doom is the excitement from the kids when we open them...lol. She gives me this look like “You’re lucky...this time” because she can see how happy the kids are.

Trees - making them is craft the boys can do now - there are weeds that work well for arbors - get them gooey and sprinkle stuff on them - or dunk in a box-

There may still be some of the bare weed sticks in a field near you.

check out youtube for various techniques

I do mostly winter - so the frosted bottle brush trees can found for not a lot of money. I couldn't find any plain versions yet.

Lots of tree how to's on YouTube here's one and check on the right side for more.

How many power taps (lockons) will a layout of this size need? 

Also, I have a zw transformer, and four smaller individual transformers. How many will I need total to run sidings, lighting, accessories, and trains?

Thank you again for helping a flailing newbie.

JD2035RR posted:

Asymair95 posted:

Looks great. Is there a go to place for cheap trees? I did some looking and they are pretty expensive.

Like that layout, think it will work great for the look I’m going for. I bought a 110 trestle set last night still in the original sealed bags. They are brown ones, but have all the required clips. Is there a trestle set that Lionel made that is just the raised sections, not the incline/decline? 

Thank you for the accessory tips. 

Cheap trees - If you are looking for evergreen, the best tip I have heard is to pick up an old artificial Christmas tree, and cut the branches into varying sizes of trees, and shape the needles accordingly.

The Lionel 111 trestle set is the elevated (all approximately 4 - 7/8 inches high I believe). However, you can certainly make your own out of 1x4s that could allow for greater clearance below.

 

   

I have the 111 set but only used it for the grades. I made my elevated posts out of 1" wood dowel. My only suggestion is to make them about 5 1/2". I made mine 5" and some newer stuff doesn't fit under my upper level.

Asymair95 posted:

How many power taps (lockons) will a layout of this size need? 

Id say about every 3-4 ft.. Less if you use 3ft sections. I like to solder to the underside of tubular curves as being close to the feed in curves really helps steady the speed.

Also, I have a zw transformer, and four smaller individual transformers. How many will I need total to run sidings, lighting, accessories, and trains?

As many as you wish though the ZW alone could handle.a lot. BUT when using two or more transformers together they do need to be "phased". This is new and old types alike. The best video imo is on Youtube, search there for Phasing Lionel Transformers, and chose the one by Lionel.

Thank you again for helping a flailing newbie.

Our pleasure !

 

Asymair95 posted:

How many power taps (lockons) will a layout of this size need? 

The trains will tell you that - they will slow in areas - I would suggest to start with six for the O27 line - two on each side between the ends

two for the O31 - and one for the elevated

Also, I have a zw transformer, and four smaller individual transformers. How many will I need total to run sidings, lighting, accessories, and trains?

Again, it depends on the trains - Use a handle  of the ZW (A& D) for each main loop - use the accessory terminals B & C to group accessories by voltage 14v for switches and 12-14 volt for whatever likes that

use a smaller transformer for the elevated line and another smaller transformer as needed if an accessory likes a different voltage

Thank you again for helping a flailing newbie.

A Handy Reference is attached to reduce flailing - don't let the boys see that!

 

RSJB18 posted:

JD2035RR posted:

Asymair95 posted:

Looks great. Is there a go to place for cheap trees? I did some looking and they are pretty expensive.

Like that layout, think it will work great for the look I’m going for. I bought a 110 trestle set last night still in the original sealed bags. They are brown ones, but have all the required clips. Is there a trestle set that Lionel made that is just the raised sections, not the incline/decline? 

Thank you for the accessory tips. 

Cheap trees - If you are looking for evergreen, the best tip I have heard is to pick up an old artificial Christmas tree, and cut the branches into varying sizes of trees, and shape the needles accordingly.

The Lionel 111 trestle set is the elevated (all approximately 4 - 7/8 inches high I believe). However, you can certainly make your own out of 1x4s that could allow for greater clearance below.

  

I have the 111 set but only used it for the grades. I made my elevated posts out of 1" wood dowel. My only suggestion is to make them about 5 1/2". I made mine 5" and some newer stuff doesn't fit under my upper level.

Is your tender on backwards?

---

I know this thread is a year old, but it took me that long to get back on track (Pun intended) to finish my layout. 

Just a quick refresher on last year’s events. I inherited my Grandfathers, Fathers, and Uncles trains. I am a hopelessly flailing newbie with zero train experience. I have been reading and watching videos over the past year trying to educate myself. I would like to build a layout for my two children and I to enjoy. More importantly, I would like my 80 year old Father to be able to see his trains running again after all these years.

last Winter I was able to get the bench work built, and start on a track plan...this is where it ended. 

I have loosely laid out some track in a design that seems to work well. I will have to cut several pieces to custom lengths, but that’s no big deal. 

I just wanted the knowledgeable folks on this forum to take a peek at what I came up with. I like longer runs of track, as I really like to just watch them run.

Are there any pitfalls you guys can see? I’m open to any and all critiques. Thank you for your help again, it feels good to be back.

The loop that goes over the bridge is o31, and all other track is o27. I posted a pic of the few switches/cross over I have left. Guess I could make a few more sidings?

I should be able to run three trains at once on this layout. Both o27 loops have provisions for reversing direction.

Ok... top pic, end of the grade, extend it slowly into the turn. After than smallest plastic piece, shim with popsicle stick to spread that initial transition out more. Spread the last drop in height over +/-3 curves. Some locos aren't going to like a fast transition and curves so close either, try to keep curve to straight more level. At the bottom of a fast grade there is opportunity for a steamer cowcatchers, drawbars, and uncoupling discs to short out on the center rail.. or top of the hill/bottom both, bind at the couplers, or just slide apart. Slow transition helps You also have an S turn or two I think you could eliminate. (not getting an attachment tool right now, I already drew over your photos, lol.) Why not connect that stub siding at the back? Ok, back to the transition in the top pic corner. If any bite you, it is going to be that S curve. Add a 4" or bigger straight there, shift curves, whatever. Tuck the next closest line in tighter to its return track to gain room for "egging" the S turn out of the far loop. Connect the stub siding on the other end, at the back. You again have an S. Try to turn this inner loop into a long teardrop vs a droop. Asap test the grades. Test them again WITH LOADS. Abuse them some. Close tube ends tight again. test again. etc..

Hey Asymair,

Good to hear from you. The layout looks pretty good. I see one area to change a little. I have attached pics. Take the wiggle out of the area of the inside line near the window end.

You can make this work with a flat angled straight. Shorten the long straight from the middle to permit the turn and straight to towards the window to clear the elevated line on a 45°. Then, adjust that to align the curve by cutting a straight. Finally, adjust the length of the last straight near the window .

The plan issue that I see is crossing that line into the oval in the center. You have introduced a lot of electrical issues by doing that. I would separate all three loops to avoid the need for tricky wiring.

The center oval could kept interesting by making a figure 8 inside or maybe a double 8.

Lose the connection to the non-elevated loop and 90° cross tracks of the third loop in the front. 

How long is that area in the front? 

Well where in the world have I been.  I like to pickup on layout design topics, but this is the first I have seen yours!!  What you are doing looks like you are well on your way!  I will have to go back to the beginning and get caught up!  You started your design topic the same month I started mine.  I still don't know how I missed yours!! 

OK, I think I’m following...lose the teardrop/S-curves. Adjust the grade.

Thinking I will make a short video so I can make sure I’m understanding correctly. 

I know the electrical will be a challenge. I have been watching lots of videos and reading literature/books. I did buy some insulating pins so I could isolate the three loops from each other, as well as sidings.

Be back with a video link soon.

Made a short video of my layout. Sorry for the shaky camera work and poor sound quality. Hopefully it is enough to give a better idea of what I’m working with. Thank you for the help again.

 

https://youtu.be/AomGKETWkBM

FYI, Target has some low-cost snow-covered evergreen trees in the dollar spot and back by the Holiday decor.  I got a 4-pack of small trees for a buck.  Places like Michael's and JoAnn's both have trees that would work fine on an O-gauge layout. 

Random link to some trees at Michael's.  Just so you know what I'm talking about:

https://www.michaels.com/silve...shland/10568261.html

Thank you John, will give them a look.

It looks to me in the video that your curves may be too close to the walls not giving enough clearances for your locos & rolling stock.

Asymair95 posted:

Made a short video of my layout. Sorry for the shaky camera work and poor sound quality. Hopefully it is enough to give a better idea of what I’m working with. Thank you for the help again.

 

https://youtu.be/AomGKETWkBM

Sorry, I didn't pay attention to the O27 inventory. A cut curve (in half) will straighten the run that I highlighted. The loop at the other end is ok. There is not enough space to smooth it out.

See attached.

Thanks for video.

it's ok to insulate the loops from one another. One must ensure the transformers are in phase and close to same voltage when crossing from one loop to another.

I like the crossovers on the center line.

I am just not a fan of having conventional loops connected. It works for many.

Why is there is a question about the grades? There should be 11 trestles that are placed at the track joints and provide a 4 3/4" rise at a slope of about 4.7%. That's how the sets were designed.

 

Ok, so maybe you can use some half curves at the other end of that line.

I've had some composng issues with some points, but I finally watched most of the video and what stands out is I think your crurves are too close to wall and locos are going to hit the wall . You need about 1-3/4 inch or more between wall and rail. I had some other points, but the composer attachment tool isn't wotking for me in this thead.

Got the o31 section of track done and hooked up and there is a short...aaaargh!

Is there a way to find the offending piece of track with a multimeter without dismantling everything? I’m going to check my custom length pieces first as I did move some ties around and may have disturbed the insulated rail.

Asymair95 posted:

Got the o31 section of track done and hooked up and there is a short...aaaargh!

Is there a way to find the offending piece of track with a multimeter without dismantling everything? I’m going to check my custom length pieces first as I did move some ties around and may have disturbed the insulated rail.

This recently happened to me, I assumed it was a switch acting up, but it ended up being a nice looking piece of straight track.

I think your best bet it to separate the 031 line in half and test which side causing the short, then separate that side in half to see which of those sides is causing it, etc etc etc until you narrow down which piece of track is the offender. 

Also, double check your wiring to be sure something didn’t accidentally get crossed up. 

Ok, will give that a shot. I simply clipped a lock on to the track and wired it to a simple 1073 transformer. 

I have four 1020 manual switches, and none of the lights came on.

 

The process of elimination above is a good one. 

  To add to it slightly, for tube track at least, look for the heat build up. It will be hottest at the short most of the time.

  Move fast; I didn't say warm. It could cause a blister if you move too slow.  A fast pass along the top of the  center rail with a finger is my "fast check". Then finger and thumb, lower and slower.

The 1073 should have a breaker if Im not mistaken. Let it trip once and quickly go hunting.

 Id likely disconnect at least half first... and mind you this is not a technically proper way to test and heat may not be present.  But it is pretty easy to find if the heat does build, and it usually does.  No heat? Then it's back to process of elimination.

Found the short. It wasn’t in a switch or one of the pieces I cut to length. It was in a new straight piece I had bought from Tin Man last year. There was no obvious metal to metal contact that I could see, so I don’t know what happened. Ran my first train tonight after fixing the track! The trestle grade is fine, nice and smooth. Needs a few more power line drops to smooth things out. 

I got all the trestle pier clips put on tonight and started piecing the o27 track together.

Next order of business is modifying the 1121 switches for aux power...all 11 of them. I’m not going to do the auto derailed mod, so don’t need the capacitor mod. Wish me luck.

Good work! 

Do you have someone to help modify the switches? I did about 15 with another guy. It was really helpful making a production out of it. He made the power by-pass wire while I disassembled the switches and then made the wiring change. Two soldering irons to tin the wire and install.

be careful with insulator paper inside. It will be fragile. Have some electrical tape on hand.

It should be easy, but some solenoids were made so that they won't leave you much wire after you clip the track power wire. 

I also lubed the switches with CRC 2-20 at the pivot points and also the solenoid rod. I also put some silicone grease on the direction indicator gears. 

I found that carefully snugging the direction indicator parts to not too tight kept the switch free. They were very snappy when operated after the process.

This also stopped the arcing that these do when on track power. 

Take your time. It's well worth it. These switches will work great.

I’ll be modifying these alone, I have to do all my train work at night after the kids are in bed so it doesn’t interfere with family time. If the little ones were older I would have them help me, but I don’t think a four year old would have the attention span. 

I followed most of your description. I have had some of these switches open already last year for cleaning and lubrication. Most work great now, but I still have a few that need higher voltages to snap completely over. 

My 1121 switches don’t have any gears, only a shutter type piece that blocks the direction light from showing through the lense, and a push rod that throws the switch from the solenoid. I have lubed these with automatic transmission fluid per instructions I read in a different thread on here. Seems to work very well.

My question is what gauge wire should I use to extend the power wire from the switch? Can I get away with 18ga?

Tonight I get to drill out the pop rivets...again. I knew I should have used screws to put them back together last time

Asymair95 posted:

I’ll be modifying these alone, I have to do all my train work at night after the kids are in bed so it doesn’t interfere with family time. If the little ones were older I would have them help me, but I don’t think a four year old would have the attention span. 

I followed most of your description. I have had some of these switches open already last year for cleaning and lubrication. Most work great now, but I still have a few that need higher voltages to snap completely over. 

Mostly the shutters - loosen the screws a little bit and make sure the paper for the color isn't rubbing

My 1121 switches don’t have any gears, only a shutter type piece that blocks the direction light from showing through the lense, and a push rod that throws the switch from the solenoid. I have lubed these with automatic transmission fluid per instructions I read in a different thread on here. Seems to work very well.

yes, that is it - sorry - I lubed everything and found that the through position was easiest to reassemble to - it is mainly the friction of the top on the indicator that slows them down - too tight, misaligned and rub, colored paper coming off

My question is what gauge wire should I use to extend the power wire from the switch? Can I get away with 18ga?

yes, I used 16ga it was a little large to fit and looked too big on the outside - but it was all I brought for the project and we were getting it done that day

Tonight I get to drill out the pop rivets...again. I knew I should have used screws to put them back together last time

I hear ya on that one

here's what the big 16 aux power wires looked like (see attached)

 To run constant power for a turnout coil only? 18g pigtail 2’ length should be fine. Use 16g or heavier for bussing power to those pigtails over a distance.

I don' know if it can apply to yours, but the older turnouts only need a dremel wheel slice (maybe two?) of the trace. It can be done from underside, right thru the steel. The liner will still do its job , just leaving pulling the cover for wire work.  You may want to pull one apart and look at how you might pull it off. Take measurements of where the slices need to be and know that though you can't see it, you know what is being cut.  (Ive done it, but those switches are laid on a ceiling shelf, my other two in the "center of town". I cut a window in the steel the first time, taped edges, etc. but after trying the simple slice and inspection, I'll always just slice.)

With the bulb? Well now you gotta look at that bulbs amp/watt too.

If it is carrying track power around to rails, that is too small.

I hate setting rivets. I'm actually good at it, but if I see good opportunity for a washer/nut /bolt or screw, even "micro", I'm there.  I also have an inherited "lifetime supply" of rivets that keeps me setting them if I need to hunt too hard for a certain threaded fastener. (the dreded unsorted screw box )

I tie knots in my wire before it exits a cover so it pulls at the cover vs connection point.

My plan is to run a 14ga bus wire (That is the smallest Lowe’s had when I was there in a large roll) and then run drops to it from the switches.

Will be doing this for accessories, lighting, track power, and the o27 switches.

Last night I got all the rivets drilled out. Wasn’t as bad as I thought it was going to be. Will try and get these soldered up today.

Baby steps.

One switch down, 10 to go. 

Seems I can’t post pictures for some reason.

Cut the power wire and ran it out the switch cover opening.

 

filed a small slit in the cover and ran the wire out.

 

Using 1/8” x 1/8” rivets to secure the back cover again. These rivets were very soft and easy to remove. My Greyhound Norman keeps me company in the shop

Keep up the progress. I know the feeling of fitting in layout building during time that doesn’t disrupt family time. Sometimes I take small projects with me to work on over my lunch break at work. 

Which transformer(s) will you be using to power the layout? I’m curious how many watts those switches will use. 

I will be using two ZW 275. I have a few 50 or 60 watt small ones also. Was thinking of using the four main handles on the ZW to run different train lines, and the four smaller knobs on the ZW to run accessories, switches, and lighting.

Got six switches done tonight, five more to go. It’s fun opening up switches that have never been opened before. It’s like a time capsule...I found Christmas tree needles, tinsel, and glitter inside a few. I can imagine a kid 70 years ago on Christmas Day watching his brand new Lionel set going round and round

 

JD2035RR posted:

Keep up the progress. I know the feeling of fitting in layout building during time that doesn’t disrupt family time. Sometimes I take small projects with me to work on over my lunch break at work. 

Which transformer(s) will you be using to power the layout? I’m curious how many watts those switches will use. 

I used 14 volts ACC power and they were snappy after tuning and modding for ACC power. I used mini center off toggles that were sprung for the switch controller. I didn't measure the brief amperage draw.

That layout was for Larry3Rail in Calgary.

 

I see that you have some 1121's. here's the diagram to help set up non-derail. It is cool to think about who touched and played with these old trains and stuff. it's even cooler that with a little care they can be made to operate just fine.

By the way, some of the easiest wire to source for switch control these days is 4 or 5 conductor thermostat wire.

I'm just seeing this thread now.  My suggestion would be to get things running with what you already have and play around with the track plan a bit until you decide on what you want.  You will find the shortfalls very quickly once the wheels start turning.  Personally I think you may want to open up some real estate for buildings and such.

If you want to keep the kids interested then they should have a section as well.  Kids love plastic cows and gons to put them in.  A milk car is always popular.  The layout can grow as they do.  Lionel sells some nice preformed tunnels, too.  

Ive used the hvac wire for runs over 15' but its usually in round bundles. 

I agree with Montclair, a clearance test & well loaded test asap. 

  A General has about the worst down low overhang at the cow catcher, my E-33 hand railing is next worse at mid height. The last is the cab roof on Hudson and Berk. (If memory serves me right, an FMTM is about the worst for inside & outside overhang clearances both, but it's forgetting steam cab roofs that always bit me most.)

Good news! All 11 switches are now wired for accessory power. I was even able to free up a couple of sticky switches that had been giving me trouble. One was a bent base plate exerting pressure on the swiveling plastic rail. The other was a bent center rail scrubbing the swiveling plastic rail. 

I am again in the process of laying track. Should be a few more nights till I’m done. 

Was wondering how many power taps/drops everyone uses? I have seen guys say every ten pieces of track a few times. Is this a good rule of thumb?

Some bad news too. Bought a ZW on fleabay and got burned. Needs rollers, power strip bolts, and maybe a whistle diode.