How to Achieve More Precise Momentum Control

Greetings !

I have found a properly cleaned and lubed engine runs great, also a modern transformer will aid in speed control. I run post and pre war as well as MPC with a modern ZW-L and the speed control in magnificent,.  There are plenty of smaller versions from Lionel and MTH that can be purchased used. Trainz.com is a reputable seller as well as Trainland in NYC and Justrains.

Here is one approach I used successfully years ago with universal motored Lionel engines. Remove the mechanical E-unit and replace it with the time honored bridge rectifier circuit which makes the universal motor look and function like a can motor. Then power the track with DC with which  you can switch polarity to change direction. I did this with quite few early Lionel engines and it works quite well. The result was excellent performance with the earlier engines. Obviously you can also gut the engines and replace the universal motors with can motors which will allow you to install any one of the many newer control systems.

On a second note, your area of San Diego is the home and birthplace of BlueRailTrains which introduced Bluetooth into the model train hobby.

Ken, you asked about momentum control for postwar engines. One way to get it with no engine modifications Is to use an MRC AH101 270W transformer. They are long out of production but available from internet sellers. The AH101 has tethered remotes that allow adjusting the start voltage, setting a momentum and setting a braking rate. There are also bell and whistle buttons.

Within the limits of the E unit it gives momentum and braking for postwar engines. I use these transformers with my postwar Gilbert AF engines and it all works as advertised. I see no reason they would also not work with Lionel postwar engines. Replacing the old E unit with a modern electronic unit can be beneficial.

@AmFlyer posted:

The AH101 has tethered remotes that allow adjusting the start voltage, setting a momentum and setting a braking rate. There are also bell and whistle buttons.

The PowerMaster PM-1 provides these same functions with the CAB-1.

Hey Gang, thanks for the responses, this is great info, and it's always good to hear from others who have been down this road. It sounds like I have several options depending upon how much time - and money - I choose to spend.

@ThatGuy posted:

Greetings !

I have found a properly cleaned and lubed engine runs great, also a modern transformer will aid in speed control. I run post and pre war as well as MPC with a modern ZW-L and the speed control in magnificent,.  There are plenty of smaller versions from Lionel and MTH that can be purchased used. Trainz.com is a reputable seller as well as Trainland in NYC and Justrains.

I guarantee you that each and every engine I will run will be properly cleaned and lubed.

Could you possibly specify the model numbers of the smaller versions of these modern transformers? As much as I would like to go big with the ZL-W, it might be a tad too much at this stage. Thanks!

@BOB WALKER posted:

Here is one approach I used successfully years ago with universal motored Lionel engines. Remove the mechanical E-unit and replace it with the time honored bridge rectifier circuit which makes the universal motor look and function like a can motor. Then power the track with DC with which  you can switch polarity to change direction. I did this with quite few early Lionel engines and it works quite well. The result was excellent performance with the earlier engines. Obviously you can also gut the engines and replace the universal motors with can motors which will allow you to install any one of the many newer control systems.

On a second note, your area of San Diego is the home and birthplace of BlueRailTrains which introduced Bluetooth into the model train hobby.

Hello Bob,

I like the sound of this. Questions:

(1) once modified with the bridge rectifier circuit, can I just use any of the many DC transformers available for the other (HO, N) gauges?

(2) Are there any transformers available designed for O-gauge DC operation?

(3) Is anyone making a bridge rectifier circuit conversion kit for our engines?

...and (4) Would the bridge-rectifier-modified engines still run on a traditional track with AC?

Thanks again!

@AmFlyer posted:

Ken, you asked about momentum control for postwar engines. One way to get it with no engine modifications Is to use an MRC AH101 270W transformer. They are long out of production but available from internet sellers. The AH101 has tethered remotes that allow adjusting the start voltage, setting a momentum and setting a braking rate. There are also bell and whistle buttons.

Within the limits of the E unit it gives momentum and braking for postwar engines. I use these transformers with my postwar Gilbert AF engines and it all works as advertised. I see no reason they would also not work with Lionel postwar engines. Replacing the old E unit with a modern electronic unit can be beneficial.

Thanks Tom,

Regarding the E-unit conversion, could you recommend an electronic E-unit conversion kit?

@ADCX Rob posted:

The PowerMaster PM-1 provides these same functions with the CAB-1.

Hi Rob,

Is the CAB-1/PM-1 combination better/worse/about the same as the MRC AH101?

At first glance it looks like the AH101 would be less expensive.

I used the Dallee 400 in my engines. Dual motor engines may require the 406.

@FortyFivePalms posted:

Is the CAB-1/PM-1 combination better/worse/about the same as the MRC AH101?

Different. I have both. CAB-1 is wireless and controls up to 10 PM-1 PowerMaster addresses(I use two PM-1s for power hungry power districts). CAB-1 has three (L,M,H) momentum settings, 32 steps. PowerMaster is the track power controller and you can use any of your existing transformers or a PowerHouse brick(135 or 180 watts). You can use as many CAB-1 remotes as you wish.

The MRC is dedicated tethered remotes, I don't know how many speed steps, and it's been so long I would have to look at the manual to set the momentum. It is an integrated power supply... transformer in the case. They are cheap on the secondary market for lack of interest.

The Cab2/990 Base plus either a ZW-L or a PM and conventional transformer also work. My personal opinion is it is a lot of money for purely conventional operation. The PM with a 180W power brick would be a lot cheaper than a ZW-L for just one or two channels. For about $100 the AH101 will provide what Ken asked for with postwar engines. I also run my TMCC and Legacy engines on the same track setup at Christmas. The AH101 allows accessing bell, whistle, TowerComm and CrewTalk in conventional operation of a Legacy engine. I can also run my postwar engines on my permanent Legacy layout using a Cab2 controlling the individual channel output voltage on two ZW-L's. The user advantage is the Cab2 is wireless.

I have four AH101's I use with temporary Christmas layouts running conventional. For a permanent layout I think investing in a ZW-L is worthwhile. My layout uses two of them. The challenge at the moment is to find a 990 Legacy set. The Base 3 will likely show up in April solving that issue.

Hi Ken!  I love your line of thinking!!  Unfortunately I'm not sure that you'll achieve a high degree of precision with traditional postwar Lionel.  Recently I began and participated in another Forum thread about improving the performance of traditional motors.  The consensus was that their 3-pole armature and brush plate design just can't equal the performance of modern "can" motors.  The design of postwar locos doesn't make it easy to install can motors.  The gear ratio cannot easily be changed, and it favors a large slow-turning motor.

Since you asked specifically about momentum... I never tried the MRC AH101 recommended by AmFlyer.  But back in the '90s I did test various traditional locos with a Starr-Tec Hogger, which was a top-of-the-line DC walkaround throttle with momentum.  My venerable postwar 675 ran quieter and smoother than it did with an AC transformer.  With the momentum cranked up it took a lot of room to stop!  So it might be worth experimenting with one of these.

Some postwar locos are much better than others: the 773 Hudson, dual-motored F3s and FM Trainmasters are among the best.  The early die-cast frame NW2 switchers and 2328-type Geeps are good, IF you run them in tandem for a minimum of two motors.  (The gears are back-drivable, so the motors can help each other at low speeds, giving you more power pulses per inch.)  The prewar 0-6-0 steam switcher might be another good choice if you swap in knuckle couplers.  For the smoothest operation I would run them on DC and completely remove any kind of mechanical smoke apparatus.

Like you, I love postwar.  But for a small switching pike that places a premium on smooth performance and realistic train handling, I would stick with some of the newer Legacy switchers.  There are several great choices in steam and diesel, including a Lionel Genset which will really crawl, if you're into modern railroading.  If you figure out how to wring more performance out of the old classics, please share your success here on the Forum!!

@Ted S posted:

Hi Ken!  I love your line of thinking!!  Unfortunately I'm not sure that you'll achieve a high degree of precision with traditional postwar Lionel.  Recently I began and participated in another Forum thread about improving the performance of traditional motors.  The consensus was that their 3-pole armature and brush plate design just can't equal the performance of modern "can" motors.  The design of postwar locos doesn't make it easy to install can motors.  The gear ratio cannot easily be changed, and it favors a large slow-turning motor.

Since you asked specifically about momentum... I never tried the MRC AH101 recommended by AmFlyer.  But back in the '90s I did test various traditional locos with a Starr-Tec Hogger, which was a top-of-the-line DC walkaround throttle with momentum.  My venerable postwar 675 ran quieter and smoother than it did with an AC transformer.  With the momentum cranked up it took a lot of room to stop!  So it might be worth experimenting with one of these.

Some postwar locos are much better than others: the 773 Hudson, dual-motored F3s and FM Trainmasters are among the best.  The early die-cast frame NW2 switchers and 2328-type Geeps are good, IF you run them in tandem for a minimum of two motors.  (The gears are back-drivable, so the motors can help each other at low speeds, giving you more power pulses per inch.)  The prewar 0-6-0 steam switcher might be another good choice if you swap in knuckle couplers.  For the smoothest operation I would run them on DC and completely remove any kind of mechanical smoke apparatus.

Like you, I love postwar.  But for a small switching pike that places a premium on smooth performance and realistic train handling, I would stick with some of the newer Legacy switchers.  There are several great choices in steam and diesel, including a Lionel Genset which will really crawl, if you're into modern railroading.  If you figure out how to wring more performance out of the old classics, please share your success here on the Forum!!

Ted, thanks for your reply.

I'm getting up to speed pretty quick with all things O-gauge, and specifically Lionel. I just received my late Xmas presents (Lionel 12969 Trainmaster Command Set + 11863 GP-9) which will allow me to expand my horizons and see what TMCC is all about. I will also be experimenting with DC track power to gauge post-war performance differences vs AC. In the meantime, I am spending a lot of time fixing/tuning dead or dying post-war locomotives; I'm having a lot of fun and seeing some amazing results. I'm not exactly sure where this road will lead but I will share my successes (and failures) with the Forum.