Is this the future of smoke?

Norm I was intrigued by some of Menards buidlings which have smoke and it's simply produced by adding water.  I'm with you what a neat, clean way to enjoy the smoke effect while humidifying the house especially in the winter months.

Norm, does the cloud condensate when it comes into contact with anything? ….this is pretty cool,…

Pat

I have a cool mist humidifier that I run next to me in the winter. I don't know how it works. I'm thinking it's what you're showing here?

It actually is beneficial to my sinuses in the winter so this is cool!

I don't have an issue with the oil units (smell) like several members of my family do.

Pat, yes, being water vapor it will condensate against something placed very close to the vapor stream.

As far as I know, everybody says water and electronics/track don't mix but I would be curious to see just how true that is in this specific case.

A lot safer for your lungs and mucous membranes, I'd guess.  Unless the concentration is very high shouldn't condense all that much on surfaces.  As pointed out, actually could be  beneficial in winter climates where indoor air gets very dry .  Tap water isn't all that conductive and unless you get the humidity up really high (seems unlikely) wouldn't think rust would be a problem.  As noted, more like a tiny, tiny humidifier than an electrical hazard in all likelihood.  Use of distilled water might be a good idea for various reasons as suggested below.

Norm ,Thanks for posting . Can you pass on the link to Amazon part(s) ?

            I agree with Bill about the water/electronics mixing. Guess you just have to be

real careful when adding. I use distilled water with Menards smokers.

UnclePeteRR   

How big is well or tank that feeds the unit?

IF smoke unit requires 5v, would it have to be run thru a pot?

Uncle Pete, search for 'USB humidifier' on Amazon and/or eBay and you will come upon several variations of the device with its controller. There's even some vids showing it being used for hobby purposes, etc.

I plan on 3D printing a unit to fit in an engine project at some point. I will design it so I can dampen the wick with a syringe through the boilerfront. The piezo unit has to be free and clear to produce vapor so it has to be right at the bottom of the stack. One nice thing is that it doesn't destroy itself when it runs dry.

Now that Hornby has a viable unit in production, hopefully we'll see it in O gauge sometime soon. I feel like O gauge is getting tech-mogged by every other scale out there these days.

Norm, just wanted to say thanks for keeping us up to date on your projects, can't wait to see how this one goes.  Dwayne

Here's the vid that got me stoked:

It's a Nice cleaner alternative, but that moisture has to settle down on building roofs, track and switches. Time will tell if it has a decaying effect ion these items and others around the scenery.  I was using an ultrasonic humidifier in Winter and started noticing a lot of white dusty residue nearly everywhere near the humidifier.  After research and a few Googles, I found that the Ultrasonics, all convert minerals into this white dust, even with distilled water that I did use.  Who knows...maybe it's not enough volume to do any damage to the scenery and  electrical appliances on the layout.  

@BillYo414 posted:

As far as I know, everybody says water and electronics/track don't mix but I would be curious to see just how true that is in this specific case.

Smoke fluid isn’t good for electronics either. Over the 10 years I repaired trains part time, I’ve seen smoke fluid cause plenty of damage to models because people flooded them. It disolves adhesives, leaves oil slicks on everything, ruins traction tires, and in extreme cases I’ve seen it damage a board or two.

Like Norm, I despise the stuff but also love the look of the smoke features. With my own models, I am very careful with how I load fluid. This new smoke tech has me very intrigued.

@harmonyards posted:

Norm, does the cloud condensate when it comes into contact with anything? ….this is pretty cool,…

Pat

Pat,

anything cool when the steam hits it it will condense it may not condense strong, but it will condense. Long tunnels steel bridges will be most affected, also the tops of diecast engines will be most affected; especially if they sit and the steam drops down on everything . While the water may seem to be a great idea, just think of all those nice Lionel boards jammed into an engine when too much water would is added what could possibly go wrong?

Craig

PennCentralShops

For 3 bucks a pop I hope a bunch of people get these to fool around with and report back. I was surprised how little water is used. I spent 10 minutes shooting the thing right into my roundhouse and will now probably do it for some cheesy effects in all my vids.

Apparently the ceramic disc contraption is vibrated at a very high frequency which causes the water to vaporize. Makes me wonder if the stream could be controlled by varying the frequency. For those unclear, no heat is involved. As for the ‘dryfall’, not sure how much will actually be produced since the volume of water used is very low. Easy enough to investigate in the shop.

I hate oil smoke so badly now. Somewhere along the line I decided a good weathering job is preferable to the short term kick of watching smoke puffs so I run oil smoke very, very minimally now.

I have seen the Hornby videos and find the water vapor smoke topic very interesting.  How easy would it be to convert a Legacy steam or diesel unit is now the question.  I have even found myself clicking the switch and turning that function off on some of my units - I just don’t need it for regular operation.  While scents make it more palatable, it just overwhelms the space I have my trains in so fast. I use it only for the times I show the engines to someone or when my daughter wants to see the full smoke.

Wow, Thanks Norm, This would be a great idea for my UP generator car vice a PS1 unit. Have you done a longivity test to see how long it'll run on a fill up? Definately want to use distilled water in this. The water I have here would calcify the unit in days.

Just put a set of 4 in the amazon cart.

I assume this is the same type of unit used in the Menards accessories with "smoke."  I've had the same thought for a while to add something like this to accessories, but I didn't realize it could be so compact and cheap.

I saw one of the Menards accessories running a York a couple of weeks ago (I think it was the rocket diner), and the first thing I noticed was the condensation droplets around the opening on the roof.   That gave me pause to be honest, but it could very well be a non-issue with intermittent and non-stationary use in a locomotive.  It is certainly worth considering the tradeoffs between water vapor and oil.  I bet it would look exceptional as a whistle steam effect.

I'm inspired to grab a couple for testing.  If it is really instant-on, then whipping up some circuit or microcontroller to modulate it for chuff synchronizing should be straight forward.  I also look forward to future testing results from Norm and others.

It would be interesting to see how long the disc lasts with regular tap water vs. distilled, etc. I may hook one up today and run it all day to see what dry fall it produces. It will be interesting to see how the Hornby locomotives fare over the long term since I think they are the first to offer it in a ready to run product.

The Hornby video is pretty convincing, I wonder how they're modulating the stream.  Since there is no fan, the emitter has to be right at the stack.  Who knows, this may be the next big thing.  It would be nice to dispense with the smell, after running a few engines for a spell, I get quite a "fog" around the basement!

It just looks like they are turning it on and off from what I can tell. You could probably use your Super Chuffer. These are designed to run off 5volt usb power so the current is probably less than a typical fan motor.

@ThatGuy posted:

Pat,

anything cool when the steam hits it it will condense it may not condense strong, but it will condense. Long tunnels steel bridges will be most affected, also the tops of diecast engines will be most affected; especially if they sit and the steam drops down on everything . While the water may seem to be a great idea, just think of all those nice Lionel boards jammed into an engine when too much water would is added what could possibly go wrong?

Craig

PennCentralShops

I knew there was no heat involved in these contraptions, and I knew there’d be condensation, but just how much is the big question,…..might not be enough to even worry about, or does it start affecting things,….it’s definitely pretty cool,……wish I had time to investigate too,….but I already got too many irons in the fire,….so I’ll watch this unfold…..

Pat

..

I personally would not mind seeing this becoming the norm.

As much as I like all the smoke effects we have on the market right now from whistle steam to blowdown, I can't deny the clean up process for all this oil saturating these locomotives makes them one of the biggest double-edged swords in this hobby. Reducing the constant cleaning of all these units would be a huge relief.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

It just looks like they are turning it on and off from what I can tell. You could probably use your Super Chuffer. These are designed to run off 5volt usb power so the current is probably less than a typical fan motor.

Well, considerably more power than a fan motor, they need several hundred milliamps, fan motors run on 30-45 milliamps.  From one of the many ads on Amazon...

Pellorig Voltage: DC5V Current: 300mA Power: 2W Frequency: 108KHz Driver board size: 35x19mm Diameter of atomized steel sheet: about 16mm Outer diameter of silicone ring: about 20mm Wire length: about 8cm The number of holes is 740, the hole diameter is 5um Material: PC+Metal colour: Green Package Contents: 4 x circuit board 4 x Atomization film.

@harmonyards posted:

I knew there was no heat involved in these contraptions, and I knew there’d be condensation, but just how much is the big question,…..might not be enough to even worry about, or does it start affecting things,….it’s definitely pretty cool,……wish I had time to investigate too,….but I already got too many irons in the fire,….so I’ll watch this unfold…..

Pat

..

Pat,

I did try this years ago with an LGB engine. I remove the original smoke unit and made the change. What surprised me, was the fact that water started to deposit on the top of a plastic locomotive. as the engine ran and the smoke went back over the engine .. water started to accumulate small droplets you did not see it unless you ran your finger across the top of the engine and then you realized it was wet.

Craig

PennCentralShops

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

…I plan on 3D printing a unit to fit in an engine project at some point. I will design it so I can dampen the wick with a syringe through the boilerfront...

This water misting “smoke” project is a great idea, Norm. When you design this part, would you consider submitting it to the OGR 3D Catalog so others can make it, too?

@Patrick1544 posted:

…I was using an ultrasonic humidifier in Winter and started noticing a lot of white dusty residue nearly everywhere near the humidifier.  After research and a few Googles, I found that the Ultrasonics, all convert minerals into this white dust, even with distilled water that I did use.

We noticed the same white dust everywhere when we began using tap water in an ultrasonic humidifier in our home. However, switching to distilled water stopped the production of the white dust. Maybe you should try another source for your distilled water. It should not do this.

@gunrunnerjohn I will try to measure the current needs today. I'm sure something could be made to run it with synched puffing.

@Rich Melvin no prob! I think I have a candidate picked for this experiment.

For further research, here's the TRS Trains Youtube channel. I believe TRS was the first to demo this tech, at least that's what I think he's using.

https://www.youtube.com/@trstrains9330

And a young fellow put one in a large scale engine and does a great job explaining it:

I"m going to get one of these and try to get some smoke coming out of a building. I've got a smoke stack on my coal mine power plant that would look great with smoke.

Thanks Norm

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

@gunrunnerjohn I will try to measure the current needs today. I'm sure something could be made to run it with synched puffing.

I have no doubt it could be made to chuff, just have to be a bit more than connecting it to my existing board.

@ThatGuy posted:

anything cool when the steam hits it it will condense it may not condense strong, but it will condense. Long tunnels steel bridges will be most affected, also the tops of diecast engines will be most affected; especially if they sit and the steam drops down on everything . While the water may seem to be a great idea, just think of all those nice Lionel boards jammed into an engine when too much water would is added what could possibly go wrong?

Just to be clear: these ultrasonic transducers do not produce any actual steam, only a very fine mist of water that has roughly the same qualities as fog. So, while there is no "condensing" when it hits a surface (cool or otherwise), some of the fine droplets *can* be deposited on any surface they contact, and can begin to aggregate into small droplets before eventually evaporating (the speed of which is affected by the relative humidity in the room). I've used two of these transducers on the layouts for episodic use, and have not experienced any significant water depositing issues.

Also, since the mist is not heated, it does not tend to naturally rise in cool air the way smoke does, so the transducers instead rely on mechanically *throwing* the mist out of the transducer, in the process dragging the surrounding air along with it, and when this column of mist and air loses momentum, it tends to fall back down in a manner not as reminiscent of true smoke:

My second installation is an upgrade to a Menards burnt engine shed, a work still in progress. Currently, the mist from under the piece tends to pool under the engine, so I am still working on adding a small fan to stir the air and produce wisps of 'smoke' around the glowing coals in the shed. Stay tuned . . .

I have a couple of "steam pods" meant for tabletop gaming that use the same mechanism.  The instant on/off is great, after a few seconds to prime it.  The pods have a 8s on/off setting with an LED and there is no noticeable delay between seeing the LED turn on and the vapor coming out.  Ducting the vapor is not a good idea, it can be done but there will be condensation, however unlike a smoke unit the emitter can be oriented horizontally if designed to do so (my steam pods were).  As Menard's has done, these are idea for stationary structures which don't move and are usually away from the tracks.  Certainly a cheaper option to animate multiple stacks like a factory would have.

An interesting idea, Norm. Plus, another advantage is if you are suffering from the Flu or any other lung disease, you could just head into your train room and run the trains with the smoke on and you'll feel a bit better! No humidifier necessary! Ha, ha!

A very interesting thread. The videos shown are encouraging. In my small collection, I'm down to only one steam locomotive, the stock Polar Express, because I grew tired of messing with the finicky smoke units on my other steamers. I eventually sold them off and now operate only the trouble-free diesels. I find the diesels more dependable, less labor intensive, and cheaper to run, just like the real railroads did.

If the manufacturers could come up with a water-based steam unit shown in the above posts that is durable and efficient, that would be great for steam locomotive operators. The only drawback would be always having to replenish the water reservoir inside the locomotive. But that wouldn't be any worse than having to place drops of smoke fluid inside the stack on a regular basis. Maybe they could come up with a steam engine water tender, like the Union Pacific Big Boy uses today.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Just to be clear: these ultrasonic transducers do not produce any actual steam, only a very fine mist of water that has roughly the same qualities as fog. So, while there is no "condensing" when it hits a surface (cool or otherwise), some of the fine droplets *can* be deposited on any surface they contact, and can begin to aggregate into small droplets before eventually evaporating (the speed of which is affected by the relative humidity in the room). I've used two of these transducers on the layouts for episodic use, and have not experienced any significant water depositing issues.

Also, since the mist is not heated, it does not tend to naturally rise in cool air the way smoke does, so the transducers instead rely on mechanically *throwing* the mist out of the transducer, in the process dragging the surrounding air along with it, and when this column of mist and air loses momentum, it tends to fall back down in a manner not as reminiscent of true smoke:

My second installation is an upgrade to a Menards burnt engine shed, a work still in progress. Currently, the mist from under the piece tends to pool under the engine, so I am still working on adding a small fan to stir the air and produce wisps of 'smoke' around the glowing coals in the shed. Stay tuned . . .

Yes I used the wrong term, water droplets in long tunnels and steel bridges will be an issue. As I stayed in a latter post the top of an LGB engine I tried this on did get wet.

I’m not a diesel guy. But for those that enjoy smoke in their diesel. I would think the no heat factor would be a huge benefit with a plastic shell.

If these can prove to be more reliable than what we currently use,  I think there would be a big market for them.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I really dislike smoke units in their current form. They are messy, unreliable, run too hot and stink, especially as they decay and ultimately fail. The residue left behind trashes my weathering efforts and is difficult to impossible to clean. I was recently watching a review on a new Hornby steam engine and saw that they now have water based smoke and it looked pretty good. Being intrigued, a quick search brought up some experimental videos showing the use of ultrasonic humidifier boards in some large scale engines. This is basically the same tech Hornby uses from what I can tell. I ordered some usb powered humidifier boards on Amazon for less than 3 bucks each to play with. I never knew about these strange and interesting devices and thought for a few bucks why not?

Here’s some quick vids in the shop and in the layout showing one of my first thoughts for their use:

Right off the bat what I liked was the instant on effect. Also no need for a fan. As long as the wick shown is damp and in contact with the piezo (?) disc, the water is vaporized instantly. I really like the fact that there is no smell and it doesn’t hang in the air. Most importantly for my purposes no oil! The control board runs off 5 volts DC and can probably be controlled with a puff and chuff type circuit. At this point I’m not sure how the stream can be slowed down but as you can see it’s pretty much instant on/off. No warmup required!

Here’s a photo of the components:

Why can’t we have this in O gauge?!

Norm, I bought several  ultra-sonic driver boards and transducers  a couple of years ago because I am most allergic to the glycerin/ P.glycol  based smoke . I have never been able to join a club because I did not feel I had a right to tell others to turn their smoke units off. So I really hope this tech takes off. My next project is to add TMCC to a  3rd Rail PRR S2 and I intend to  add U.S. smoke to it. Should be easier than standard locos with puffing smoke.       j

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I personally would not mind seeing this becoming the norm.

As much as I like all the smoke effects we have on the market right now from whistle steam to blowdown, I can't deny the clean up process for all this oil saturating these locomotives makes them one of the biggest double-edged swords in this hobby. Reducing the constant cleaning of all these units would be a huge relief.

You should see the cleanup involved on full-size steam locomotives for the exact same reason! Mix in coal particulates and you get a really nasty mess. But isn't that why we love steam engines?

I was curious about the volume of water it uses. I filled a jar with a 1/2 cup of tap water, set the assembly in there and let it run. It took a little over 4 and a half hours to suck it down. No evidence of moisture on the surface I had it setting on.