KLINE TMCC Help Please.

I would make sure the run/program switch is in the run position, next try a reprogram.

Bill

The motor drive board is the one with the large U-shaped heatsink.  Make sure all the connections to that board are intact.  There are two plugs on the board, assuming that this doesn't have cruise control.  One is the black one between the driver FET's (mounted on the heatsink).  This one receives power from the pickups and frame and connects to the motors.  The other four pin white one receives +5V and the PWM forward and reverse signals from the R2LC.  Make sure all that wiring is intact.

Does it run in Conventional mode?

Here is an old post on how to fix these engines.  It was the problem I had with mine and it fixed it.

I got 2 of the "blowout" K4s': a prewar with smoke lifters and a postwar. The prewar ran fine out of the box. The postwar ran great with cruise off and good with cruise on in forward. In reverse, it jerked and speeded up erratically.

Tonight I fixed the postwar engine, here's how. I spoke to Ed Bender of Digital Dynamics, who was/is a dealer for K-Line cruise control upgrades. He said that K-Line's system is really good: the optical sensor reads a slotted brass strip, but the strip is very narrow and the sensor must see the middle of it. He suspected that there might be too much run out in the motor shaft, causing the sensor to see only the edge of the strip in reverse only. He suggested I see how much in and out play there is in the motor shaft.

I opened up the engine and the shaft seemed tight with very little play. But, it looked like the sensor was not aimed at the middle of the strip. The sensor mounts to a PC board that is crimped to the motor housing in 2 places, and this board looked a little bent. I could flex it with my finger so that the sensor was centered on the strip. I made a temporary 0.060" plastic shim, wedged it in so that the board was straightened and set the boiler on top. The engine is now a smooth runner both forward and reverse with cruise on or off. Just need to make a "permanent" shim and we're good to go.

Here is a photo of where I placed the shim (I will put one on each side for the "permanent" fix). The final shims will be trimmed close to the motor housing. The shim is at the end of the tweezers point.

Here is a side view showing that the shim is not too fat (only 0.060") but it moves the board enough so the sensor lines up with the strip. Again the tweezers are pointing to the shim.

Hope this helps.

Dan

“I would make sure the run/program switch is in the run position, next try a reprogram.”

Bill

Thanks Bill, checked switch again but did that and reprogrammed unit ID# before I posted.

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The motor drive board is the one with the large U-shaped heatsink. Make sure all the connections to that board are intact. There are two plugs on the board, assuming that this doesn't have cruise control. One is the black one between the driver FET's (mounted on the heatsink). This one receives power from the pickups and frame and connects to the motors. The other four pin white one receives +5V and the PWM forward and reverse signals from the R2LC. Make sure all that wiring is intact.

Gunrunner

Thanks Gunrunner, traced all wires and connectors back and they all are in place. Pushed them all in but they were already in place.

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Does it run in Conventional mode?

Dale, now here is something. It does NOT run in conventional mode. With two KLINE TMCC engines on the track, when I switch to conventional mode, the other engine responds correctly but the K4 does not. It lights up with a one- time hiss but that is it. No whistle, no bell, no rear coupler sound. I also put back a battery but it also did nothing different. Then I put it back into TMCC mode, it starts up, sits chugging, whistle & bell and coupler sound (does not open) and shuts down BUT no movement.

What is this all telling me?

Double checking here:

No whistle or bell in Conventional  - Your are using the whistle and bell controls on the transformer, right?  And your other engine is responding to that?

Hugh

   In your original post you said you had done a Reset (Aux1+0). I suggested a reprogram as found here

http://www.lionel.com/ForTheHo...oreTMCCfunctions.pdf

or look in your manual for the code. If you have done this then we can check other things.

Bill

Loco-Dan

“I opened up the engine and the shaft seemed tight with very little play. But, it looked like the sensor was not aimed at the middle of the strip. The sensor mounts to a PC board that is crimped to the motor housing in 2 places, and this board looked a little bent. I could flex it with my finger so that the sensor was centered on the strip. I made a temporary 0.060" plastic shim, wedged it in so that the board was straightened and set the boiler on top. The engine is now a smooth runner both forward and reverse with cruise on or off. Just need to make a "permanent" shim and we're good to go.”

Dan, I saw the problem you suggested and it did not appear to be this problem but shimmed it anyway and it made no difference.

Dale

“Double checking here:     No whistle or bell in Conventional - Your are using the whistle and bell controls on the transformer, right? And your other engine is responding to that?”

Dale, actually was using the remotes and YES the other engine was responding to those commands.

Bill

“In your original post you said you had done a Reset (Aux1+0). I suggested a reprogram as found here. http://www.lionel.com/ForTheHo...oreTMCCfunctions.pdf or look in your manual for the code. If you have done this then we can check other things.”

Bill, yes, my statement was incomplete. I used that procedure and a code 4 as the KLINE instruction manual suggested.

Guys,

Going to bed here on the east coast. I have morning committments tomorrow. I await your next flurry of suggestions. My direction when I come home will be to leave the top of the cab off thereby disconnecting the antenna and plugs to the lights and troubleshoot in conventional mode. I will start at the DC motor and try to determine if I am getting DC voltage to the motor. Can you tell me how much DC voltage should be there between the black lead and each other? Assuming I get the right voltage there, then it would be the sensor on the motor or motor itself.

Is there any safe way to apply DC voltage to those contacts to see if motor will go?

How about if I clip them?

Dale, Let me clarify.... I ran conventional the way I always do from my DCS remote, It is just set up that way. And, yes the other KLINE responded from it, K4 did not. It is the same as if I used my transformer. I in fact have misled you about conventional mode operation.

1) I was mistaken about the other KLINE engine. It actually was a KLINE which I had converted to PS2 and it was working normal conventional. I am really sorry about that.

2) THere must be something about running TMCC engines conventionally that I do not know. I could not get any of my TMCC, kline or Lionel to run conventionally as I do all other stuff I own.

So now I have TWO KLINE TMCC engines side by side. The K4 has cruise, the other does not. When trying to run conventional voltage to the track from the transformer or remote (DCS) all I get are the lights to light, nothing else.

Using TMCC CAB1, the other engine without cruise functions normally. The K4 with cruise on or off still gives me all the normal functions except no movement. With the CAB1, when I spin wheel, I get one big chuff like it is going to move but no torque at the wheels at all. Motor spins freely by hand so there is no mechanical bind.

Questions above in blue are still valid BUT first how do I run TMCC engines in conventional mode?

You can not imagine how stupid I feel. So much for late at night work. Sorry again.

My TMCC/Legacy locomotives simply run in conventional mode with a normal transformer.  Note that you MUST remove any connection to a TMCC/Legacy command base to the track, as the TMCC carrier will prevent the locomotive from entering command mode.  I suggest unplugging the command base.

Gunrunner thanks,

I just got home a while ago and what I did was put a test track on the floor with an ordinary transformer. Now all is conventional.

Mikado works, K4 does not however it gives all the normal sounds etc, just does not move.

I guess I move on to checking voltage at the motor and see where that takes me.

Still hoping for a miracle suggestion.

If you remove one wire from the motor, or simply unplug the connector for the motor, you can test the motor with a DC supply, start with three-four volts.  I'm guessing it's probably going to work.

OK, the connector on the motor is for your encoder, the brown and black wire are motor power. The other black wire is for the cruise, thats between the brown and black wire.

Bill

Bill & guys,

Motor works fine.

I have not had any luck to my knowledge in probing around the boards, top & bottom while under power either with smoke or without.

Where to from here?

Bill am I right about smoke unit operation?

Looks like I probably need a new Motor Control Board.

I am now weighing options after conversation with Bill.

Anyone have one they may have pulled out after after an upgrade?

Thanks,

Hugh

I do. Contact me thru my profile. BF

Hi All, I have read this post with interest as my Semi Scale K Line Hudson would only run really slowly in TMCC mode. Loco -Dan's solution made a lot of sense where as others have been unable to help.

In the Hudson the "cruise Board" is the other way up but  I Packed out the gap and with the body back on but not screwed down - away the engine went with all functions and controlable speed at last!

I screwed the body down and I am back where I started - dead slow!!

Repeat the process and we get speed - finish up the re-fit and it is lost.

I have checked for loose wires, crimped wires etc and cant see anything - anyone any ideas??

My one thought is that perhaps pulling down the body tight moves the wiring harness and that pulls on the cruise board.............

Its to late now here in England and I need a beer - I will have another go tomorrow but all thoughts welcome.

CHEERS MIKE

OK Mike, here is the fix.

You have a signal and an antenna problem I think.

The final fix on mine in this blog was to get total control by adding an antenna wire.

I took an 'angle' drill and put a new hole at the top of the cab where it enters the engineers area.

Then I took a black wire to make it hard to see, attached one end to the antenna connections inside, fished it through the new hole and into the engineers area of the cab and screwed everything down. Bingo gives absolute cruise slow speed control as well as very fast with little movement of Cab1 wheel required.

Curious if this also works for you.

Hi Hugh,

Thanks for the reply. I have looked again at my engine. With the body off, the lighting and antenna wires disconnected it runs just fine - presumably picking up a signal from the short yellow wire to the plug. The speed wheel on my cab1 does have to be turned quite a bit but once it starts it is ok. ( I wonder whether the wheel turning is more about voltage as I am not using a very powerfull transformer at the moment)

I have inspected all of the wiring to the handrails and all looked perfect - no crimps no touching the body etc

I did notice however that both antenna wires connect into the same plug on the board - is this right? as it is a two pin plug but with the wires only going to one side?( your picture doesnt show this bit)

I am a little relunctant to drill holes in the body so my next step I think will be to splice in a new wire to the antenna harness and see if I can tuck it through the back of the cab.

I would welcome your thoughts on the above.

Thanks again for the input.

CHEERS MIKE

There is only one antenna connection, and steamers have both handrails connected to one antenna connection, all perfectly normal.  Disconnect the antenna from the board and measure resistance from the antenna to the shell, you should not get any reading.  Putting additional wiring inside the cab will do nothing for the antenna, it's shielded by the metal cab.  If it works with no body, and doesn't get a signal with the body on, I'm guessing the handrails are shorted to the shell.

Thanks John,

I guess I will need another look. As far as I can see there are no exposed wires and all the handrail stanchions are plastic. My loco has the blacked handrail so I am assuming this also helps where it slots into the holes on the pilot but to be absolutly sure I have placed the body back on the chassis with the handrails sticking out so no possibility of a short there anyway.

Magnifying glass time I think..........

CHEERS MIKE

Gunrunner said:

"There is only one antenna connection, and steamers have both handrails connected to one antenna connection, all perfectly normal. Disconnect the antenna from the board and measure resistance from the antenna to the shell, you should not get any reading. Putting additional wiring inside the cab will do nothing for the antenna, it's shielded by the metal cab. If it works with no body, and doesn't get a signal with the body on, I'm guessing the handrails are shorted to the shell."

Gunrunner, Sorry, But in this case your comment about adding an antenna wire doing nothing is inaccurate. Maybe I did not explain myself correctly. The added wire to the antenna cluster inside goes through the new hole in the cab which exits in to the Engineer compartment and therefore is open to the outside of the cab shroud. You cannot see it because it hugs the ceiling over the cab figures head. It of course is insulated and black so unless you climbed inside the comartment with a dental mirror you would not be able to see it.

It worked so well in gaining  finitespeed control that I have applied that fix to all my TMCC steam engines. It made even the best performers even better.

Don't knock it until you have tried it!

"Putting additional wiring Through the inside the cab will do everything  nothing for the antenna"

To quote Dale Manequin, "For TMCC, You can never have enough antenna!"

I have not bothered yet to work out a similar invisable solution for my diesels.

Hi Hugh,

Just read your latest post - I think I will have to try that  - did you just splice into one of the wires or both in a loop - if you see what I mean.

I have screwed my engine back to gether and had the same problems as before BUT if I touch both handrails with one hand whilst operating the cab1 with the other I have really good control so I guess I am becoming the antenna and boosting the signal a bit like I did as kid with a crappy transister radio!

Sorry to be really thick about all this. I will report back with a loop in place

CHEERS MIJKE

Hugh, Is that a "Kingfisher" flying at the top in some of your photos? 

Hugh, I'll yield the point if it's actually not surrounded by the metal shell.  In that case, any extra antenna seems to be a benefit, so you win the round.

For most diesels, the shell is plastic, so you can be creative with a long wire loop around the shell.

Mike, you may also have a sub-par R2LC receiver, that's been known to happen as well.

Hi Hugh,

Just read your latest post - I think I will have to try that - did you just splice into one of the wires or both in a loop - if you see what I mean.

I have screwed my engine back to gether and had the same problems as before BUT if I touch both handrails with one hand whilst operating the cab1 with the other I have really good control so I guess I am becoming the antenna and boosting the signal a bit like I did as kid with a crappy transister radio!

Sorry to be really thick about all this. I will report back with a loop in place

Mike,

I have learned a lot about TMCC in the last few months from the people who have supported this post but much was bypassed in private emails with Boxcar Bill and Dale Manequin. The classic indicator of a receiver antenna problem is being able to improve performance just by moving your hand over the top of the engine. You obviously have that problem. Could be the location of your sending equipment or just the engine sensitivity to receive as Gunner indicated.

In my engines (KLINE w TMCC) the antenna wire came out of the R2LC board and was connected by wire nut to wires leading to the two handrails. I just added the new antenna wire to the cluster under the wire nut and fed it through the hole into the engineer compartment.

These 3 guys have proved most valuable in solving my TMCC issues. They are worth listening to.

After solving this problem, I tested all areas of my layout and discovered additional weak signal areas. It was on the far ends of a three parallel sidings about 5' long. Control was there but the finite control with the cab1 red knob was gone. I took a jumper wire and jumped the outside rail of my mainline to the outside rails of my sidings. I use tubular track so ouside rails  are connected by ties and on sidings my center rails are controlled by switches.

The responsiveness was immediatly corrected. I have since wired these all permanently together and entire layout is super sensitive responsive.

Drill the hole carefully and no damage results.

Hugh, Is that a "Kingfisher" flying at the top in some of your photos?

Marty,

Yes it is!

Hello again.

I tried the extra wire fix - I temporarily added another wire at the point where there is a connector to allow the boiler to be completely seperated from the chassis. I ran this new wire into the cab (without drilling a hole - there wasa gap next to the tender tether connector).

No real improvement to be honest. But as soom as I touch either a handrail or the new wire - away we go full control. I have also tried uncoilining the new wire and laying it along the boiler - same result.

I have cleaned the track as well now - no difference. Also checked the wire to the track from the transmitter and tested with another TMCC loco (Lionel) - all fine. Despite this I wonder whether I should change the batteries in the Cab1 although they are pretty new.

Other than that I am stuck.

Don't you just love train electrics!!

CHEERS MIKE

Did you try swapping in another R2LC?

Hi John,

I only have the one k line engine with TMCC. I will however check all the connections again.

Is the lionel board the same?

THANKS MIKE

The Lionel R2LC is the same board, the only difference could be the firmware version.  However, for a simple test, almost any firmware version you find will be sufficient to verify if the R2LC is having reception issues.

There is little I can add to this any more Mike.

I just got another TMCC engine in the mail today from a forum member. I was inside the cab to work on a 'failure to smoke' issue I knew about before buying it. While in there, I added the additional antenna wire THROUGH the new hole I drilled and obtained finite speed control.

Hi Hugh and John,

Thanks for the further thoughts. I have now tried the new wire antenna through a hole into the cab and regrettably there is no improvement. The minute I grab hold of the wire though I get full control, just like I do when I grab the handrails as before.

John - I have yet to swap over any boards. I guess I am kind of nervous about taking apart a TMCC engine that works fine! It would be just my luck to then have both fail!!It looks though like this will have to be the next step.

On another note - I have checked and re-checked all the wire, connectors and pulled the boarda apart and re-seated them. At one pioint the smoke packed up as well but but half an hour later I had that fixed......Thank goodness.

Thanks again.

CHEERS MIKE

Mike, If you do not have a receive problem, then you may have a send problem.

Do you have anything interfering with the send signal like a catenary overhead system or other electronice device using same frequencies in the house?

Put the cab1 controller base up near the engine.

Hugh's suggestion doesn't involve taking anything apart, give that a try first. I don't have a lot of hope for that, because it's most likely the airborne part of the signal that is the issue, not the signal coming down the track.  Did you lay a ground wire right next to the antenna?

If that fails, I'd have to start looking for other reasons.  Top on my list would be the TMCC receiver, aka R2LC.