LionChief Curcuit Board with 4 Ohm load?

You don't want to go lower than the stock 8 ohm impedance.  It may work for a spell, but you're overloading the audio amp.  Use two 16 ohm speakers in parallel if you want to add a speaker.

Thanks John

John

I do wonder how much louder, replacing the original 8 Ohm speaker with 2x 16 Ohm speakers would be...  My guess is little difference.

More gain could be achieved by connecting a small, maybe 5 Watt Amp to the stock amp's output.  If doing this, a speaker with more power handling capability and impedance matched to the second amp's output may also be necessary.  The other consideration is that a T-pad or similar resistor configuration may need to be added in between the two amps for sufficient output loading and/or input level matching.

@SteveH posted:

I do wonder how much louder, replacing the original 8 Ohm speaker with 2x 16 Ohm speakers would be...  My guess is little difference.

With the second speaker emitting sound out the top of the coal load it would be quite significant

More gain could be achieved by connecting a small, maybe 5 Watt Amp to the stock amp's output.  If doing this, a speaker with more power handling capability and impedance matched to the second amp's output may also be necessary.  The other consideration is that a T-pad or similar resistor configuration may need to be added in between the two amps for sufficient output loading and/or input level matching.

That sounds really interesting Steve

John

Whether the sound would be louder with 2 speakers depends on a few of things.

With 2x 16 Ohm speakers connected to an amplifier wanting to see an 8 Ohm load, the power consumed by each speaker will be about half as much as a single 8 Ohm speaker, thus each speaker will be putting out about half as much sound volume.

However, generally speaking, 16 Ohm speakers are typically slightly more efficient than 8 Ohm speakers, but usually only by a few percent.

With FasTrack and other rigid/highly acoustically reflective track systems and roadbeds, most of the sound coming out of the bottom of a tender is reflected back outwards towards the listener, though slightly out of phase, depending upon the frequency.  Having two speakers will increase the acoustic phase distortions.   Meaning, some audio frequencies will seem louder and others quieter.

So that's why I think two 16 Ohm speakers may not be much louder than one, if at all.  The only way to know for sure if two speakers will be loud enough is to try it.

Adding more amplification and a more powerful speaker, IMO is more likely to produce the desired result, but would be more work.

How about two four ohm speakers in series?

John

Same phase distortion issues.  Also 4 Ohm speakers are usually less efficient than 8 Ohm speakers.

@SteveH posted:

Also 4 Ohm speakers are usually less efficient than 8 Ohm speakers.

I have no idea how efficient the stock 8 ohm speaker even is.  Maybe that's the problem.  The Santa Fe Super Chief RTR set is much louder all the way around for example.

John

Replacing the stock speaker with one that's more efficient would make the sound from the tender somewhat louder.  However, finding out the efficiency of the stock speaker for comparison may prove difficult, unless you have the required measurement equipment.  Efficiency or Sensitivity ratings are given in decibels.  Here's a link to a basic description of Speaker Efficiency and Sensitivity and how to measure it.

Some people swear by Fat Boy speakers...  I haven't personally tried one as a direct replacement for a stock speaker and am unsure how efficient they may be.  Also I'm unsure if the magnet would fit in the space available inside that tender.  If interested, perhaps you can find the efficiency rating and dimensions of one in the correct driver size in some online documentation.

Someone on another forum who was trying to reverse engineer the circuit said that both Lionchief and LC+ use the same 1W cheap amp CE0030B. Here is the data sheet.

On his own LC engines he uses these 4 Ohm speakers to increase volume, but he said that you have to be careful about the sound files pared with it because a loud chuff (for example) could wreck the amp.

John

John, if there is room in the tender for it, I would still advise adding a resistor pad (between the amps), secondary 5Watt booster amp, and speaker that will handle the additional wattage.  I estimate the total parts cost would be about $30 - $40.

If you swap in a 4 Ohm speaker and blow the IC chip amp on the LC board, replacing the entire board would run you about $75 plus shipping.  If you have the skills to replace just the chip, and you can find an exact replacement, then just swapping to a 4 Ohm speaker may be an acceptable risk.

@Craftech posted:

On his own LC engines he uses these 4 Ohm speakers to increase volume, but he said that you have to be careful about the sound files pared with it because a loud chuff (for example) could wreck the amp.

Like I said, limit the impedance to 8 ohms or more.

@SteveH posted:

John, if there is room in the tender for it, I would still advise adding a resistor pad (between the amps), secondary 5Watt booster amp, and speaker that will handle the additional wattage.  I estimate the total parts cost would be about $30 - $40.

Steve, doing two speakers, even impedance matching, can significantly increase the volume.  One only has to look at some of the higher end Lionel steamers with two 16 ohm speakers instead of one 8 ohm speaker and hear the difference to realize this is quite possibly a major improvement in sound.

While I'm sure adding the amp will increase the volume, it's also a bit of a PITA, adding the speaker is much easier.

Another very effective method is to add a proper baffle to the speaker, that can greatly increase the volume, and also increase the bass in the sounds.

John, I have no doubt that the higher end stock steamers with two matched speakers have better sound.  These two speakers are in a purpose designed enclosure, mounted close to each other on the same physical plane and are both firing in the same direction.  This reduces the acoustic phase distortion and the two drivers effectively couple with each other to improve the overall bass response.  They also likely have a more powerful amp driving them than the CE0030B.  So yes, I agree that will sound louder and better.

Craftech John has already installed a baffle with little improvement.

@Craftech posted:

LionChief 0-8-0 too quiet, barely audible especially with 2nd loco especially on FasTrack.

Tender barely has enough headroom for a baffle.  I made one anyway and drilled a few extra speaker holes in the bottom because Lionel mounted the speaker off center from the grill holes.

Barely a difference in volume.

I still remain very skeptical that adding a second speaker to this tender (keeping the same total load impedance on the amp) will make a significant improvement, unless the two replacement 16 Ohm speakers are markedly more efficient than the stock 8 Ohm speaker.

When 2 speakers reproducing an identical sound source are not physically aligned with each other and at an optimal distance apart, the combined sound from them results in a type of acoustic phase distortion referred to as Comb Filtering.  The net result is that some frequencies are perceived to be louder and others quieter.  The overall perceived difference can be very subjective, depending on the person and their location relative to the sound source.

I guess I could open up the LionChief Santa Fe to see what's different about it when I get a chance.  That sounds great with a single speaker.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I looked awhile ago for any posts that explained how to disassemble a Lion Chief 0-8-0 and couldn't find one.  Have any of you seen that?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve,

How are you suggesting the add-on amp be powered?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

When I did the Bachmann HO K4 with a TCS WOW sound decoder it was an older model which was not sound ready (barely decoder ready) so no downward firing speaker section molded onto the bottom of the tender.  So what I did was to drill a lot of tiny holes in the top of the coal load of the tender and seal the edges of the entire tender.  I mounted the speaker at the opposite end (It came with a tight fitting baffle) turning the entire tender chamber into a resonator that let the sound out the top.  The sound is dramatic for a small tender.

In terms of O Gauge and Fastrack I would think the speaker emitting sound a half inch from noisy Fastrack would cancel a lot of the volume.

John

@Craftech posted:

Steve, How are you suggesting the add-on amp be powered?

John

If there's a suitable DC power source on the LC board, a modified tether between the Locomotive would be required to run power back to the tender.  I don't know if a suitable DC source is there already.

Depending upon the available space for everything inside the tender, an appropriate AC to DC buck converter getting it's input power from Track power may be a better alternative.  This may require adding a pick-up roller and axle wiper if the tender doesn't already have them.  Exactly which buck converter would depend on the selected Amplifier's voltage and power requirements and space constraints.

What's the model number of your 0-8-0?

@SteveH posted:

If there's a suitable DC power source on the LC board, a modified tether between the Locomotive would be required to run power back to the tender.  I don't know if a suitable DC source is there already.

Depending upon the available space for everything inside the tender, an appropriate AC to DC buck converter getting it's input power from Track power may be a better alternative.  This may require adding a pick-up roller and axle wiper if the tender doesn't already have them.  Exactly which buck converter would depend on the selected Amplifier's voltage and power requirements and space constraints.

What's the model number of your 0-8-0?

http://www.lionel.com/products...w-bluetooth-1923040/

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...LOCO-ONLY-1923041001

The tender has both an axle wiper and a pickup roller.

Thanks Steve,

John

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Like I said, limit the impedance to 8 ohms or more.

Steve, doing two speakers, even impedance matching, can significantly increase the volume.  One only has to look at some of the higher end Lionel steamers with two 16 ohm speakers instead of one 8 ohm speaker and hear the difference to realize this is quite possibly a major improvement in sound.

A major mismatch in the power handling capability could impact the performance.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

A major mismatch in the power handling capability could impact the performance.

I haven't really searched so maybe assuming low power handling for 28mm speakers is getting ahead of myself.

Thanks John,

John

I don't have any LionChief locos but I have not heard anyone complaining about lack of volume.  Have you tried to diagnose the problem with your stock sound system ?  Has the volume been too quiet since new ? I am assuming it has a pot under the tender are all three wires connected ? If it has been this way since new perhaps the problem is on the board.  On occasion I have fixed problem by reflowing soldering joints. I think some of the LionChief boards can be controlled with TMCC you might try accessing the sound with a TMCC controller. If the amp on the board is not putting out the designed wattage/volume adding speakers is not going to fix the problem.          j

Only Lionchief Plus 2.0 can be controlled using TMCC.

@JohnActon posted:

I don't have any LionChief locos but I have not heard anyone complaining about lack of volume.  Have you tried to diagnose the problem with your stock sound system ?  Has the volume been too quiet since new ? I am assuming it has a pot under the tender are all three wires connected ? If it has been this way since new perhaps the problem is on the board.  On occasion I have fixed problem by reflowing soldering joints. I think some of the LionChief boards can be controlled with TMCC you might try accessing the sound with a TMCC controller. If the amp on the board is not putting out the designed wattage/volume adding speakers is not going to fix the problem.          j

There is no pot under the tender.

Problem has been there since new and coincides with other comments on some forums. 

Not sure how to disassemble the engine.  Started to, but some parts were not obvious.  Never could find a post somewhere on the net on how to.  Oddly, I can disassemble a Bachmann and a Kato  N Gauge steamer which I think is probably more difficult.  Spookshow is a good source for that.

John

Maybe lower wattage speakers would be more efficient.  According to the data sheet for the CE0030B the amp puts out less than 1W.  28mm speakers appear to only be available around 0.25W anyway.

John

Here is a comparison between the LC 0-8-0 speaker and the LC Super Chief speaker (both from RTR sets).

Santa Fe LC speaker enclosed in a baffle under the chassis.  8 ohms 0.5W but smaller magnet.  Adequate clear volume.

0-8-0 LC speaker located above the chassis.  8 ohms 3W with much larger magnet inside my homemade baffle made from a pill bottle.  Muted volume even with addition of a baffle.

John

Right now I have an AC to DC buck converter that seems pretty good.  DC output is adjustable.

The problem are the two DC amp modules I bought.  One is mono and one is stereo.

The mono board (ASAIK) only puts out 1W.  It has a purported gain of 200X.   The stereo board puts out 3W + 3W.  I don't think the stereo board is bridgeable (not sure) so I would have to use only one side of it.

Is it even safe to use the speaker output in the LC tender as an amp module input?  Aren't those little amps looking for line level outputs at their inputs and won't a whole lot of distortion occur if I do that?

And what (if any) damage to the Lionel audio board might occur?

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

Is it even safe to use the speaker output in the LC tender as an amp module input?  Aren't those little amps looking for line level outputs at their inputs and won't a whole lot of distortion occur if I do that?

@SteveH posted:

...

More gain could be achieved by connecting a small, maybe 5 Watt Amp to the stock amp's output.  If doing this, a speaker with more power handling capability and impedance matched to the second amp's output may also be necessary.  The other consideration is that a T-pad or similar resistor configuration may need to be added in between the two amps for sufficient output loading and/or input level matching.

@Craftech posted:

And what (if any) damage to the Lionel audio board might occur?

If the T-pad is designed correctly, the output level of the Lionel amp would be attenuated sufficiently (to feed a line level into the secondary amp) while simultaneously loading the first amp to around 8 Ohms.  Here's a link to further reading about T-pads

So if the individual resistor values in the T-Pad are chosen appropriately, then there shouldn't be any damage to any of the components.  Distortion can also be minimized to be in line with the amps' nominal specifications with appropriate T-pad design.

@SteveH posted:

If the T-pad is designed correctly, the output level of the Lionel amp would be attenuated sufficiently (to feed a line level into the secondary amp) while simultaneously loading the first amp to around 8 Ohms.  Here's a link to further reading about T-pads

So if the individual resistor values in the T-Pad are chosen appropriately, then there shouldn't be any damage to any of the components.  Distortion can also be minimized to be in line with the amp's nominal values with appropriate T-pad design.

I remember you mentioning the T-Pad earlier Steve.  I just wonder if the 1W mono amp would even work.  Don't I need more wattage?

John

It’s difficult to say whether the 1 Watt amp would be as loud as you want.  If you were to use the 3 Watt stereo amp, one of its channels could be used with a single 3W or higher rated speaker.  The other channel would be idle.  Unless the stereo amp is designed for its outputs to be bridged, I suggest not trying that lest the magic smoke may appear.

@SteveH posted:

It’s difficult to say whether the 1 Watt amp would be as loud as you want.  If you were to use the 3 Watt stereo amp, one of its channels could be used with a single 3W or higher rated speaker.  The other channel would be idle.  Unless the stereo amp is designed for its outputs to be bridged, I suggest not trying that lest the magic smoke may appear.

I may try it anyway as long as the magic smoke only occurs in the cheap 3W amp and not the Lionel amp board.

Also, there are T-Pad calculators which first ask how many dB reduction are being sought.   That'll be guesswork at best.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.c...tenuator-calculator/

John

Without access to detailed specifications on the amps, using essentially a trial and error approach, I’d suggest starting with about 50dB of gain reduction.  It’ll probably end up much less maybe in the 20 to 30 range.

Looking at the example schematic in the wiki link referenced above, I’d start with a Logarithmic taper variable resistor in the R3 position that would yield around 50dB max attenuation and then dial in the desired volume.

@Craftech posted:

LionChief 0-8-0 too quiet, barely audible especially with 2nd loco especially on FasTrack.

Tender barely has enough headroom for a baffle.  I made one anyway and drilled a few extra speaker holes in the bottom because Lionel mounted the speaker off center from the grill holes.

Barely a difference in volume.

I have a 30mm 8 ohm speaker which I could mount up inside of the coal load facing upward.  Small holes drilled in the black coal load are not noticeable.  I have confirmed this with an HO installation I did a few months ago.   I want to hook this up in parallel to the existing 8 ohm speaker.

What I don't know is if the resulting 4 ohm load will damage the LionChief circuit board.

Anyone know?

Thanks,

John

I don't know if this would work in your case but in the American Flyer Flyerchief engines I have I pulled the stock speaker and replaced it with the Fatboy speaker included with the sound boards that ERR sold, that made a vast improvement.

Ray

Dumb question, but have you tried the volume control? With the engine stopped, blow the whistle and at the same time turn the throttle up.

@Rayin"S" posted:

I don't know if this would work in your case but in the American Flyer Flyerchief engines I have I pulled the stock speaker and replaced it with the Fatboy speaker included with the sound boards that ERR sold, that made a vast improvement.

Ray

I have several speakers both square and round, but the height is a limitation as anything more than 25mm will hit the coal load area or at least one of it's retaining screws.  So I am experimenting.

Thanks,

John

@Chuck Sartor posted:

Dumb question, but have you tried the volume control? With the engine stopped, blow the whistle and at the same time turn the throttle up.

Yes.  Thanks Chuck.  On mine, it is actually Hold down announcement button and turn throttle up.  Varies.

John

Chuck that’s a great question.  I had assumed (yes I know) that John was aware of this feature based on previous conversations.  

The manual for this locomotive says this:

“Adjusting the locomotive volume with the Universal Remote

To adjust the overall volume of the locomotive's sound system begin by placing the throttle 1 in the top dead center position (so the red LED is solidly illuminated and the locomotive is stopped). Press and hold the Announcement button then turn the throttle to the left and / or right, this will increase and decrease the overall locomotive volume. Continue holding the Announcement button when turning the throttle, you can stay in this mode until the volume is at the level you desire. Once the volume level is set to the level you want release the Announcement button and return the locomotive throttle to the top dead center position again. (The new volume level will remain until you change it in the future, even after power has been cycled.) If, after running the locomotive, you decide to change the volume, simply follow the steps above to do so.

Note!

If the throttle is not in the top dead center position before or after the volume adjustment process undesired operation will occur. Always start and finish the volume adjustment process with the throttle in the top dead center position!”

@SteveH posted:

Without access to detailed specifications on the amps, using essentially a trial and error approach, I’d suggest starting with about 50dB of gain reduction.  It’ll probably end up much less maybe in the 20 to 30 range.

Looking at the example schematic in the wiki link referenced above, I’d start with a Logarithmic taper variable resistor in the R3 position that would yield around 50dB max attenuation and then dial in the desired volume.

Also, some of those amp boards claim those max wattage ratings with a 2 ohm load !!. The "stereo" ones are often NOT two channel.  Both left and right are identical and are probably a split.  There is a 5W / 5W board that puts out 3W at 4 ohms and a 3W / 3W that puts out 3W at 4 ohms.

You said it Steve.  Trial and error.

Thanks,

John

John send me a link to the 3 + 3 Watt amp and I’ll look at it’s specs.  May have some useful info for choosing resistor values.

@SteveH posted:

John send me a link to the 3 + 3 Watt amp and I’ll look at it’s specs.  May have some useful info for choosing resistor values.

Thanks Steve.  Much appreciated:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01D...dt_b_product_details

John

Here's a link to the datasheet for the amplifier chip that this module uses: PAM8403

Not much info on the board mfg.'s site HiLetGo PAM8403 Super Mini 5V 3W*2 Digital Amplifier Board USB Powered Volume Control

Maybe I missed it, but I'm not seeing it's input impedance.

1. To get a better idea of what we're dealing with, could you measure the resistance across it's input connections with the volume control potentiometer fully clockwise and again with the pot fully CCW?
2. Do you have an assortment of 1/2 or 1 Watt resistors in the 1 to10 Ohm range?
3. How about an assortment of 1/4 Watt resistors in between 100 and 1kOhms?
4. What values of potentiometers would you have on hand?

Feel free to PM me with answers to 2, 3, and 4.