Well, if they painted them to match the E7 they did a few years ago they will look like the one on the left.
Pete
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@Eccentric Crank posted:I'm late to the fray (as usual) and not sure I can add anything else that my cranky cohort Mike C has said but,
so the Hudson's are light like I suspected from Ryan's video then? I do remember seeing that and thinking that it was off, sort of like the one run of MTH's that were the very light gray
I have not seen the engine but it appears it is also a very light gray. There are two ways to tell. Look at the very first photo and the end of the diaphragm. This gives a good indication how light the engine will be to match the cars. Another way to tell is much like when I first looked at my set, I couldn't make out the lettering as the gray was so light (it looks like there is also a blue tint to it but let's not go there). Again look at the original photos, you have to get the cars in a proper light to make out the lettering.
- Crank
Check out that link to the video I posted above, that's what I was talking about. It looks lighter than the Dreyfuss from the stolen tooling, but darker than the MTH 5445 I was talking about.
A few of us have been working on this great debate for some time now. For the most part, with some exceptions, the manufactures kept getting it wrong, …..looking for answers, we decided to dive in deep, and see what we could come up with for ourselves…..My DuPont rep loves these little treasure hunts I task him to do, and he ran with this ball too,….in a nut shell, no formula exists for the factory lacquer finish used on the locomotive, but he was able to produce the formula used on the cars which is an AE ( acrylic enamel ) formula,….Now, take what I’m showing y’all with a grain of salt, …..to be sure, the original AE formula had lead based pigments, and is in a synthetic enamel coding, for modeling purposes, we have to convert that formula to a urethane product ( Chromapramier by DuPont ) …..we feel the shade of gray should be a medium dark gray, with just a tinge of brown….the formula we came up with based on research, not eyeball match, is pretty much dead spot on with the Smithsonian Dreyfus, & the TMCC Dreyfus, ( 6-28084 ) …..
Pat 
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Now that does look promising Pat. I know that paint always looks different wet than dry, but those do look pretty good to the color of the Smithsonian and 28084. Ryan's video the Dreyfuss looks light to me, maybe it is the lighting on his camera, or the lighting above, hard to say. I guess we'll have to wait until they arrive, but my guess is it will be lighter than the other two prior, but darker than the MTH 5445 that was off and very light IMO.
@Mike Casatelli posted:GGD learns from its mistakes, and the later ’48 set is both lighter and equipped with simplified, rigid, and problem-free diaphragms. Also, the trucks are fitted with bearings so the train is an easier haul and tracks just fine.
- Mike
Sure would be nice if Scott offered replacement trucks with bearings for the 1938 GGD cars. Mine have substantial rolling resistance.
@harmonyards Your paint formulation looks spot on to me. Great work with great results!
@KarlDL Agreed! Trucks fitted with bearings would greatly improve the running charateristics of the GGD '38 and '40 TCL sets.
- Mike
I just don’t understand how manufacturers can get the colors wrong given the copious amount of research and photos available— I do understand it’s difficult to get things exact -/ but way off is inexcusable if for no other reason it’s just as easy to get it right than wrong and there shouldn’t be a cost differential
@20centuryhudson posted:I just don’t understand how manufacturers can get the colors wrong given the copious amount of research and photos available— I do understand it’s difficult to get things exact -/ but way off is inexcusable if for no other reason it’s just as easy to get it right than wrong and there shouldn’t be a cost differential
As long as the product is sold, the manufacturers ( some exceptions, like a certain brass manufacturer ) sit back and high-five each other on a job well done, ……accuracy is watered down to basically just get the shape close,….if they need a certain number of units produced, and they meet that number, then it doesn’t matter how accurate they truly are, reasonably close is good enough, ……we all have to ask ourselves, are you a modeler? Or do you play with toy trains?….I believe the latter thinks inaccuracies are of no bother, ….but that’s fine!!….if they’re happy with a train set like this, by all means enjoy it,….but I think that’s where this hobby has been heading for some time, …and again, nothing wrong with it, kinda reminds of the time of the whimsical toy train layouts in the windows of the Firestone stores,……
Pat
Perhaps it is the Monica Lewinsky approach, close but no cigar.
If more accurate realism is required/desired perhaps a different scale of train is better suited. I am asking not saying.
While Lionel has upped the game detail and feature wise (up to a point for some) their Achilles heal of paint color/shades persists.
Perhaps that old saying about many a slip between the cup and the lip applies to the relationship between Lionel and their paint vendor/painter in China. Maybe just maybe the paint should be made in the USA and shipped to China.
It can't be any more expensive than rejecting whole orders and shipping them back to China for a do over.
@Former Member posted:Perhaps it is the Monica Lewinsky approach, close but no cigar.
If more accurate realism is required/desired perhaps a different scale of train is better suited. I am asking not saying.
While Lionel has upped the game detail and feature wise (up to a point for some) their Achilles heal of paint color/shades persists.
Perhaps that old saying about many a slip between the cup and the lip applies to the relationship between Lionel and their paint vendor/painter in China. Maybe just maybe the paint should be made in the USA and shipped to China.
It can't be any more expensive than rejecting whole orders and shipping them back to China for a do over.
It can't be any more expensive than rejecting whole orders and shipping them back to China for a do over.
and the above statement is where the “gray” area is ..( no pun intended ) ……if the models sell to the dealers, and 80-90% are sold to consumers with no complaints, is that a win? ….I’m not sure what the recourse is anymore for dealers to pack up an entire order for return based on “ inaccurate colorization “ …….when I was a dealer back in the Reagan era, we never had this issue that I recall of, ….if there was an uprising due to a part failure, etc., it was dealt with by Mike & his team…..I’m sure like the case of these cars, some will be returned to the dealers, if they’re unopened, back on the shelf they go for the next guy, if they’ve been opened, and can’t be sold as new, I’m sure the dealer can get reimbursed from the mfr. ……..I’m also sure given the prices of these cars, there’s an “acceptable loss margin “ built into that pricing structure…..
Pat
@KarlDL posted:Sure would be nice if Scott offered replacement trucks with bearings for the 1938 GGD cars. Mine have substantial rolling resistance.
It would be nice if Scott made extra trucks for his customers that bought the early sets. That said I have replaced the trucks on his Empire State Express cars made roughly the same era with Lionel trucks and they roll an order of magnitude better plus have far better detail. Not sure those Commonwealth trucks are correct for the 20th Century cars though.
Pete
@Former Member posted:Perhaps it is the Monica Lewinsky approach, close but no cigar.
If more accurate realism is required/desired perhaps a different scale of train is better suited. I am asking not saying.
While Lionel has upped the game detail and feature wise (up to a point for some) their Achilles heal of paint color/shades persists.
Perhaps that old saying about many a slip between the cup and the lip applies to the relationship between Lionel and their paint vendor/painter in China. Maybe just maybe the paint should be made in the USA and shipped to China.
It can't be any more expensive than rejecting whole orders and shipping them back to China for a do over.
In fact it is a huge problem. Getting anything painted in the USA is becoming more and more difficult due to air pollution rules. Someone like Lionel would have to build a separate painting area including PPE for anyone entering the area the include pretty fancy and expensive filtration systems that will contain all VOCs and get it EPA certified. The alternative is water based paints which are not good for production, because they take too long to dry and cure, or catalytic paints like auto manufacturers use. China is one of the few places in the world where their environmental rules lag far enough behind, but they are changing too.
This is why all the solvent based model paint manufacturers have disappeared.
Well, if they painted them to match the E7 they did a few years ago they will look like the one on the left.
That's what I thought of when I first received my cars; these are a match for those off white E7s they did. I know someone personally that sent photos of the Smithsonian set including detailed paint instructions etc to Kuncle that Lionel must have made a decision to ignore, to go with the color of their misbegotten E7 Beauty Queens so all motive power and cars would match. Now, who knows where they got that color gray for their E7s. But at least the wide carbody stripe is gray on the E7s, instead of black on the new cars.
- Crank
I know a few people had commented about how big the stripes should be as they were not correct in the art, and were spaced incorrectly too. That was also messaged.
The New York Central Historical Society ( highly recommend checking it out and consider joining) has tons of pictures and I believe actual paint chips — getting these things close to right isn’t that much extra work—
@harmonyards posted:A few of us have been working on this great debate for some time now. ….the formula we came up with based on research, not eyeball match, is pretty much dead spot on with the Smithsonian Dreyfus, & the TMCC Dreyfus, ( 6-28084 ) …..
Well, if that's the case then none of the cars out there have the correct color ... not GGD, not K-Line, not MTH, since none of them were anywhere close to my Lionel TMCC Dreyfuss, which is why I sold the latter. The GGD and K-Line cars are a very good match to the 3rd Rail and Weaver Dreyfuss engines, though the latter is a bit lighter than the former and the cars. I'll take a loco-car match over absolute color accuracy, but nearly-white with nearly-black doesn't cut it at all.
@KarlDL posted:Well, if that's the case then none of the cars out there have the correct color ... not GGD, not K-Line, not MTH, since none of them were anywhere close to my Lionel TMCC Dreyfuss, which is why I sold the latter. The GGD and K-Line cars are a very good match to the 3rd Rail and Weaver Dreyfuss engines, though the latter is a bit lighter than the former and the cars. I'll take a loco-car match over absolute color accuracy, but nearly-white with nearly-black doesn't cut it at all.
Hence I said take what I report with a grain of salt, ……there’s absolutely no guarantee that the formula we derived is 100% correct…….however, as we say inside the oval, “prove me wrong”…….Some of us are implementing the formula we’ve come up with on our models, with plans for massive repaints system wide, ……again, this is our story, and we’re sticking to it, ….We can only report what we’ve found, and what we compare it to, ….and our notes suggest the Smithsonian ( the entire set ) and the TMCC Dreyfus ( 6-28084 ) came the closest, with the Smithsonian just about a dead ringer….I will add the following caveat; “your eyes may vary, maintain an open mind” 😉
Pat
At least the cars aren't green.
2nd run.
- Crank
Then there's this -
New York Centtral - Gone, but (almost) not forgotten.
- Mike
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@harmonyards Nothing's "wrong" with it. That's why I offered it without comment. Your points are all valid, but to my finely calibrated eyes they do look rather different. The only quesion I have is which one should they match those promised green TCL cars to? 
- Mike
@Mike Casatelli posted:@harmonyards Nothing's "wrong" with it. That's why I offered it without comment. Your points are all valid, but to my finely calibrated eyes they do look rather different. The only quesion I have is which one should they match those promised green TCL cars to?
- Mike
Yeah Mike,…..sorry,…it wasn’t till after I replied, I realized where you were going with that comparison….
Pat
Yikes! In all seriousness, Lionel has a pastel problem. Many of their releases are in the pale color catagory. I am actually begining to wonder if something is lost in translation between here and China. This pale color issue can't be a one off or a mistake. That pastel green is awful. Unless of course it is an Easter special.
- Crank
And BTW, those "full width" diaphragms can use some ozempic.
- Crank
"That pastel green is awful. "
I like mine. And they are reasonably close to some of the photo evidence. The restored locomotive is obviously a gloss/shiny rather than flat finish, so that's one reason it looks quite different. Your mileage obviously is different 
.
By the way, to see how different the restored locomotive appears, depending on lighting and other factors, look at the pictures in this Google search. Unless you are physically in the presence of the model or restored prototype, appearances in images can be wildly deceiving.
This whole "correct color" disagreement is as silly as ever. About a decade ago there was a similar disagreement regarding the 3rd Rail Southern Green for their upcoming E8/9s. The person who provided Scott the color chip said he got them from the Southern RR paint shops in Atlanta and the other side of the argument said "I don't care where they came from they are wrong".
@rdunniii posted:This whole "correct color" disagreement is as silly as ever. About a decade ago there was a similar disagreement regarding the 3rd Rail Southern Green for their upcoming E8/9s. The person who provided Scott the color chip said he got them from the Southern RR paint shops in Atlanta and the other side of the argument said "I don't care where they came from they are wrong".
It may be silly to you, but to others, this is a hobby, and having as close to accurate models is part of that hobby,…..even with 3 rails,…..if you’re happy with what it is out of the box, then that’s fantastic, but then this conversation ain’t for you …..
Pat
Well, we could debate paint palette, choice of colors all dang day if we wanted to, but as it was stated when the catalog dropped, the cars would have one issue or another be it length for layouts, or the obvious color problems. I know that a few had pointed out stuff to Lionel via direct emails to Ryan or Dave specifically about the cars, the windows, the thickness of the stripes, and where exactly the catalog picture would be applicable(or not at all). In the end as Crank said, you can live with them, or send them back and find something that works for you.
A number of years ago, someone picked up one of the Dreyfuss's in the 38 paint scheme, with the blue stripe(grey was later if I remember someone pointing that out to me) and they wanted to know what cars would match it. I believe Pete(Norton) suggested two options, one of the MTH offerings, and the other being the 15" K-LINE ones, which actually looked better to the tender height if I remember right.
Whatever comes down the rails always seems to have either a slight issue, or the biggest issue with the colors like the Polar Express card or the poor Texas & Pacific green, or whatever that was called. These aren't bad cars if you don't mind the length or the color. I guess it is what it is, and we can take it, leave, or complain about it more. Now I'm not saying that our complaining isn't worth it, or stupid, it is valid and warranted. At least the cars aren't green.
I have one of the engines, and two of the passenger car sets (4 car and diner 2 pack) on order. My criteria will be does the engine color match the cars, do the stripes on the engine match the stripes on the car, and does the stripe line up between the engine and passenger cars. If those criteria are met, I should be very happy.
Lots of guys are confused on what forum this is. But when it comes to color, if a stripe should be gray and it is black, and if a color should be darker gray instead of a white/faded/gray/bluemix or whatever it is the mark has been missed. Plus, there are a number of other things wrong with the cars as far as the prototype goes, and this is the place to discuss it. But most of us here are not going to bother as we're not making the purchase anymore since reading all this and I sent mine back. Not going to get into the other car problems as I'm sure other guys like me did the same and it serves no further point. The only benefit is to try and teach Lionel something, but they're not listening and don't show much interest. However, the set will match, the stripes will line up, the engine has legacy and it will be a very sharp looking train no doubt. And keep those on the regular 3 Rail forum very happy.
- Crank
@rdunniii posted:This whole "correct color" disagreement is as silly as ever. About a decade ago there was a similar disagreement regarding the 3rd Rail Southern Green for their upcoming E8/9s. The person who provided Scott the color chip said he got them from the Southern RR paint shops in Atlanta and the other side of the argument said "I don't care where they came from they are wrong".
As information, just because the "color chip" came from the Southern RR paint shop does not necessarily mean that the green was the "as delivered from EMC/EMD" green. The EMC/EMD pain shop used primarily Dupont lacquer paint, purchased in 55 gallon drums for the main color/colors. Many individual railroads may NOT have purchased their paint from Dupont, thus obtaining ever so slightly different colors.
Amen to @Apples55. He has reasonable expectations and they likely will be satisfied. The stuff happy customers are made of.
That said, I don't think the discussion of colors and their "correctness" is silly, but it may be intractable. Perceptions vary, and they matter to different degrees, depending on how you approach and value modeling. As a general matter I agree with @harmonyards take on this as expressed in his posts above, but that's an argument I've been making here to no avail for 20 years or more. It's one I never expect to win.
My own NYC collection is schizophrenic when it comes to the "right" shades of gray. How many do you see here? (Ignore the "experimental" aluminum-gray Commodore Vanderbilt.)
My personal favorite is shown below. This is, of course, a factory painted Lionel - Smithsonian 1938 car -
And here is a close second, a Weaver 1940 car repainted with Scalecoat NYC grays. I always felt they were the best NYC colors right out of the bottle -
Beauty or, in this case, accuracy, is in the eye of the beholder.
Enjoy your hobby.
- Mike
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@Hot Water posted:As information, just because the "color chip" came from the Southern RR paint shop does not necessarily mean that the green was the "as delivered from EMC/EMD" green. The EMC/EMD pain shop used primarily Dupont lacquer paint, purchased in 55 gallon drums for the main color/colors. Many individual railroads may NOT have purchased their paint from Dupont, thus obtaining ever so slightly different colors.
This actually brings up something I've thought/said regarding other color issues, specifically variations between runs. In the real world, especially 70+ years ago, it is entirely reasonable for there to be some variation in paint colors because of which shop painted it, how long ago was it painted, has it been well maintained, etc. This is why I am less bothered that something Lionel made last week doesn't perfectly match something Lionel made 15 years ago.
Now, to be clear, this doesn't apply to wild mismatches (like the pistachio colored Texas+Pacific) or to a premier train like the 20th that had its own dedicated sets of locomotives and cars with their own dedicated scheme, one that is fairly well documented. This is one that Lionel should have been able to get much closer with. Especially given that the market had been clamoring for Lionel to run the Dreyfuss again, I would have expected them to be prepared.
@Mike Casatelli posted:Amen to @Apples55. He has reasonable expectations and they likely will be satisfied. The stuff happy customers are made of.
That said, I don't think the discussion of colors and their "correctness" is silly, but it may be intractable. Perceptions vary, and they matter to different degrees, depending on how you approach and value modeling. As a general matter I agree with @harmonyards take on this as expressed in his posts above, but that's an argument I've been making here to no avail for 20 years or more. It's one I never expect to win.
My own NYC collection is schizophrenic when it comes to the "right" shades of gray. How many do you see here? (Ignore the "experimental" aluminum-gray Commodore Vanderbilt.)
My personal favorite is shown below. This is, of course, a factory painted Lionel - Smithsonian 1938 car -
And here is a close second, a Weaver 1940 car repainted with Scalecoat NYC grays. I always felt they were the best NYC colors right out of the bottle -
Beauty or, in this case, accuracy, is in the eye of the beholder.
Enjoy your hobby.
- Mike
Mike, forgive the off topic question.
Is that tempered glass shelving with curves going into the corner? Who did that for you if you don't mind my asking.
My Dreyfuss order was canceled as soon as I got wind of this paint issue, and saw the pale grey Hudson in Ryan's video.
Mike Casatelli,
I could look at your collection presentation wrapped around the walls with curved glass, and track showing off the whole train ALL DAY - simply beautiful!
-Ken
Based upon reviews and my own observations, the HO manufacturers seem to get model colors right or fairly close. HO modelers demand accuracy in both the physical features of a model and its color. It seems to me that O scale manufacturers could do the same. NH Joe
the whole built to order model presents a quandry ---you can get what i think is a winner like the class A or a dud---if you wait to see one after it issues and its a winner you wont find it or pay a premium to get one--i think thats what makes way off paint a bigger issue
@Former Member
This entire thread has gone off-topic, probably my fault, so your question won't hurt things any. I laid out the shelves and had them cut by a local shop from 5/16" glass. The curve between the walls is dimensioned for Atlas 099" curves. If you want any more info, contact me off-line at the e.Mail address in my profile.
Nice to hear from you, Ken, and thanks for the kind comment. I fully expect to see a post soon showing off your collection of Daylights . . .
- Mike
The original locomotive color was painted in Dupont’s Duco lacquer finish, however, the cars were painted in DuPont Dulux, which is an AE, acrylic enamel, or back then called synthetic enamel,….I can’t say for sure, as I wasn’t there, but if the cars matched the locomotive 100%, then the formula we’ve derived in DuPont’s Chromapramier urethane, should be a reasonable authentic match,……I’m guessing in Mike’s beautiful wrap around glass shelves, that’s the Lionel Smithsonian set??….in his lighting, I see a lot of similarities in the color we derived vs. that set in similar lighting,……As Jack noted earlier, in subsequent shoppings, wreck repairs, ( one had a boiler explosion for god’s sake ) paint would’ve been obtained from whatever vendor was on the shop’s lists at that particular time ……so again, more than likely any repairs or repaints weren’t 100% exact like the original,……..I’ve done a few repaints of some of these with our derived Dupont formula, and if my internet will stop being whacky, I’ll post up some more pics…..& for those that absolutely love these new 21” cars, but hate the color, you can contact me via profile to discuss, ……I just wished they got the stripe right,…..this would be a pretty easy spray over if at least the striping was right…..
Pat
They look good and I cant wait to get my complete set
