Lionel's Next Catalog!

To me the problem seems to be that you never know what you're gonna get. Sometimes they ship home runs, and sometimes they ship complete duds. Atlas does "made to order", and sure people complain it takes forever and costs a lot, but who gets an Atlas product and complains that its not what they expected or is underwhelming? Same goes for 3rd Rail/GGD. You KNOW what you're going to get.

With Lionel, you have absolutely no idea what may show up, featurewise, or aesthetically. If they want to do this, they need to nail down the catalog art, and the features, and deliver exactly what they show. 

Last time I checked Lionel still had very stringent requirements for their dealers. I don't know where these "non dealers" are and where they get their products from. If I was Lionel I would dump the archaic tiered distributor/dealer model. That's just me though.

To get this back on track, Did they mention if there would be another S scale catalog as well?

 I don't know about giving up on the 'whistle steam' effect. In the Christmas Cat there is a Polar Exp that features the 'whistle steam' and is listed under $300. Probably a base line engine but the gizmo is in there.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that MTH is build to order, now the do make some extras for the guys that missed the order deadline and it seems to be working OK for them

"Make-to-order" is fine with me because I already have most everything I'll ever need or want in the way of toy trains.  Not sure how well it serves those who are still "growing" in the hobby and/or interested in adding to their rosters.  But it does seem to be the wave of the future, along with more direct-to-consumer selling (unfortunately).  This much is probably true about make-to-order:

1.  Items will almost certainly cost more.

2.  Item replacements and replacement parts will be very difficult to find, and over time will be virtually impossible to find.

3.  Dealer store shelves will be even more sparsely populated than they are now.

4.  Delivery dates will not be any more reliable than they are now, and will likely be far less reliable if production runs are quite small.

5.  Some consumers may have to re-set their moral compass so they don't feel guilty telling a dealer that they are cancelling an order due to prolonged delays or changes in product specifications.

Did I overlook anything or guesstimate things incorrectly?

Build to order is a confusing statement Lionel will have to clarify.

Does this mean I submit a request for a engine and they make what I want and can customize it? (I doubt it)

Does this mean they will make a delivery date? (no)

I believe what Lionel is implying that they will limit quantities to orders received at pre-order time, and that's it for the run. (and yes parts will become an issue)

No more blow outs... and yes the trend will create a collectors market again which for the operator will make running more trains expensive... 

Well hello Atlas, WBB, MTH and 3rd rail.... 

BTW where are those Milwaukee pass cars for my 261?

They have a lot to build!

I'm guessing if market forces are influencing Lionel in this direction, it will affect these smaller producers as well.  Lionel is only doing this for high end stuff, yes?  WBB doesn't make any high end stuff. 3rd Rail only makes high end stuff and it's all made to order.  As mentioned MTH is already doing some of this made to order approach.  Atlas has practically withdrawn from the mass O gauge three rail market in terms of high volume production.  The consumer is just going to have to adjust to whatever it takes to keep these companies profitable.  Or one could just throw a hissy fit if one wants, but that usually feels good for about 10 minutes at most .

yes or ones empire of trains is going to get a whole lot smaller.

WBB has an opportunity here, wonder what they will make of it. 

I agree with Boilermaker1, you don't know what you're going to get.  I have a very tough time preordering if the item will not be built correctly.

I believe you're absolutely right about that.  If enough pre-orders come in, the item gets made.  If an insufficient number of pre-orders are recorded, the item gets cancelled.  Minimum quantities needed to make the cut would likely vary from item to item, depending on engineering complexity, etc.

So do you think this will mean even more product cancelations?  Since it will be too expensive to make say an order run of 50 units, based on orders, they would probably have to have a minimum number of orders or it will be canceled?   I know I like to see and run a loco at my LHS before buying it, and I'm sure others do the same so that will eliminate a lot of preorders.  If dealers don't fill the gap, I'd think more products would be canceled, no?

>>>Did I overlook anything or guesstimate things incorrectly?<<

With the aftermarket inundated with recent good stuff, bloated unsold inventory, newest features gone, collectable interest in shambles, a far to costly & repetitive product line possibly looking at another price increase, I think not many will lose sleep over the build to order decree. 

Joe

At the end of the day, they are in it to make money and if the way they are doing business isnt working well they will need to adapt. Much like us customers will adapt to buying their products. All the other manufacturers are pre-order and if anybody has checked Lionel's premium steam loco prices went down last year. You can speculate all you want about parts not being available but i have never had a problem getting parts for MTH or Atlas trains and I do believe Lionel will continue to offer exceptional repair service and parts availability. They are after all in this to make money and everybody knows they have a spotty record at best with quality control. If they want to kill their business all together they will make it difficult to get parts or service and we will all look to other companies to get our train addiction satisfied.

Dang for the second time in less than a year I fully concur with Allen Miller, he is totally correct especially if it is new tooling. I must be coming down with something, anyone have a thermometer I can borrow?

And then again, there's a growing number of model train enthusiasts who already have more "inventory" than they'll ever need... and are now embarking on some serious layout building.  That being the case, it's very freeing to not feel the "addiction" to run out and buy -- or pre-order (going forward) -- items featured in the latest catalog(s).  If that means some stuff doesn't get produced, then so be it.

Try it folks... really... it's a great place to be when you can "let go"! 

David

Last time I checked, Lionel is a privately held company with no obligation to publish audited financial statements.  How does anyone here know, or have any basis for saying, what the company's financial condition is and the reasons for, or effects of, this change?  Are there folks who have access to the company's income statement and balance sheet?  Not trying to be a wise-guy or disrespectful, it just seems that there are a lot of assumptions here and I am curious as to what the basis is for the various prognostications. 

I don't think this will affect the availability of parts as much as you would think. I remember seeing somewhere that Lionel gets parts by buying the item and tearing it down. Well, I would assume that they have to preorder the items to make sure they have it torn down into parts in time for people who might need them, so they would be included in the made to order system.

I'm also sure that they know how many to buy for parts for the amount which are made.

Nobody here knows the reason for the change (if it really is much of a change), but it's just human nature to speculate on the effects, especially on an online discussion group format.

Entirely fair point Allan.  Some of the folks here then, I would think, should qualify their certainty because it is clear we are speculating.  It's nice to have some facts before reaching any conclusions, in my view.

Putting Legacy in the same locomotives will not get me to open my checkbook.

Putting Legacy in a NYC H-10 Mikado - new tooling - will.

So will a NYC 2-6-6-2 (these were NOT the USRA loco).

That's just two example; a NC&StL 4-8-4 Dixie will do it even faster - especially if they

produce both versions - I'll buy both.

And that big, fat-boilered USRA HEAVY Mike...oh, yes.

But, an electronic re-do of existing stuff - nah.

Yes, they usually account x amount of percent for repair work, but when there is a major issue, like the TMCC version of the EM-1 drive train failure, there was a run on the parts, you could not get any to repair your engine at the time.

Try to find cab window for the JLC Y6b!

And lets see if anyone can find replacement glass for any 18 in streamlined passenger cars. I need some for the Santa Fe cars and cannot find them.

If they continue a build to order quantity on production, replacement parts are going to be harder to come by.

Anybody who says they are going to stop buying trains because Lionel has made things for a pre-order is full of it. Nobody on here is going to stop buying trains because they are worried about it being made correctly or they are worried about the availability of parts. If Lionel when belly up tomorrow and closed its door we'd all still be buying trains. Nobody even knows if this positing has credibility. Its all just speculation and there is always the very real possibility that nothing will change

I agree, this won't deter anyone from buying trains, however one might buy trains from manufacture x instead of y because they can see it and operate it.

There are many people who will not pre-order, (not due to part service availability), but due to missed delivery dates and product vagueness, catologue art, sounds, mis listed features... etc and the "disclaimer"

My point is this may mean fewer "new" trains being produced in the future.

They can buy from those "shrinking" in the hobby and/or interested in subtracting from their rosters.

I don't know but made to order sounds like sell less trains. Don't know if it is a good business plan.

Sounds like a great buisness plan. Start making things people WANT instead of throwing together a, b, or c. or else go OUT of buisness.

Maybe they finally can give the berkshire and mohawk tooling a rest.

Make a few less, and make em' right the first time since you don't have to pump out and extra 500 to sit on store shelves for the next 2 years.

Yea a extra 500 to sit on the shelve is a bit much. Thing is a few people myself  included wait for the engine to come out before buying. You know see how it looks and runs . I see it here on the board quite a bit a engine is seen on here and a lot of people then want one. Don't know just saying.

Hello guys and gals, Allan.....

No preordering for me.  I will stick with NOS .

the woman who loves the s.F.5011,623

Tiffany

How does anyone here know, or have any basis for saying, what the company's financial condition is and the reasons for, or effects of, this change?

Yep, the previous marketing strategy was so successful and profitable that they decided to can it and try something else.