Midwestern Model Works

Erik is a very methodical engineer-entrepreneur. While I cannot speak to the engines bodies, his drive mechanisms are without equal. Fantastic.

I am hoping he does early diesel switchers 

.......   I am sure the drive will be superb

  I have spoken to Erik Stott an length about this project and his longer term intentions, we have a common interest in highly detailed motive power. Erik assures me that he is currently in negotiation with a reputable Korean builder, reassuringly none of those Chinese imports here, that some European importers now use to cut costs.

I've also ordered one unit in Santa Fe Warbonnet colors, but Erik says I may be able to get a Kodachrome unit due to a late reservation from another modeler for this same scheme.  Looks like this project should be a real tour de force.  

This model is out of my league, but I'd really like to see some photos/videos when they're released.

Yes, they are understandably a little pricey.  They are dividing the payments into 3 installments.  The first is due around the time of my tax refund early next year, so no problem there.  Gonna have to put in some OT at work for the other two.  

Define a little pricey, to my knowledge no actual pricing has been set or estimated at recently,the longer and more detailed this project becomes the higher the ultimate price and obiviously a smaller market will contribute to this number also.

Greater than 1 week of the median household income in this country......

And still negotiating with a builder, or are they actually building something?

Poster near the top stated "in negotiation", so building anything now seems unlikely.  Wonder what year something will arrive......

I believe we are talking closer to 1 month than 1 week of MHI

I was only answering the definition of pricey,  

I fully expect MHI to exceed that closer to your guesstimation. 

Then again, your definition of pricey may vary,

They are dividing the payments into 3 installments.

Sounds like another current high end importer. Hopefully Erik's delivery is a lot quicker than the other company. Waiting years for delivery after you've invested $1000's is for the birds. 

butch

The new business model for high end brass is the buyer assumes a percentage of the  risk.  What percentage of the risk, I can only guess, but with 1000.00 down and a second payment and then a final payment, I'd say the risk of the buyer is at least 1/2.

Larry

Lets face it for a lot of us top of the line plastic is becoming pricey.

Only if you buy it,

Funny - I was just trying to get in trouble on the Berkshire thread - for most of them, a grand is big bucks, and they expect zero defects.  Apparently what you now get for a grand is a warmed-over K-Line locomotive, complete with snap-in axle bearings and U shaped boilers.  Count me out - I shall build my own with cast iron drivers and brass or bronze bearings.

I would like a better Diesel drive, but I suspect I could build one with the right gears and my current philosophy of rigid construction.  Adams showed the way . . .

Well, bob2, et al:

Lionel's Berkshire goes for $1449.95. 3rd Rail's Erie Berk is $1499.95, and limited run, available in 2- or 3-rail. Round boiler and all that good stuff. Sadly (but not to me) no whistle steam and that sort of jazz. Plus- if something goes wrong 3rd Rail takes care of it pronto. If I were in the market there would be no choice.

I have no idea why the above is bold-face.

Hah.  Because it was important.

Pricey for me is 2 weeks gross pay (or one months net pay).   

Got me beat.  I never made it to the point where my combined taxes were 50%+.  In my youth I used to get to FICA max in June, but as an airline pilot I don't think I ever got that far.

I spent $1600 on a locomotive once - it was a PSC AC-6 SF (for "streamlined face").  It was very well detailed, and ran quite well.  It was very flimsy, made with truly thin sheet brass and stamped side and main rods.  I traded it for two USH models, and have been very happy without it.

I spent $1200 on my Lovaugh AC-8.  At th time I had been looking for several years for one to complete my Lobaugh collection.  Its current market value is around $800, and I would not part with it for two grand.  I make very little $ these days - but when I bought those expensive models they were not even near two weeks' salary, before or after taxes. I guess I was lucky.

My taxes/deductions are just 45% right now.  I still get to keep 55% of my paycheck...for now.  Subject to any new increases by the Feds or Jerry Brown Of course.  I'm sure It'll hit 50/50 before I retire.  

I don't think you will find a better drive than Erik's.  They almost run just by looking at them hard enough.

He gets' over $1K just for his drives (which OBTW are made in his machine shop in the USofA if that means anything to you).  He said he was trying to keep the non tunnel motors at about $2200 and the tunnel motors about $2400.

Before I retired my paycheck was only about 40% of gross.  But then I was maxing out my IRA contributions and my ESPP contributions so it's all in the bank now.

The price arguments here are fascinating, re- Gross two weeks, net one month.

I'm sure we'd all like to be Bob (or not) and be able to build our own, but.........

it's an interesting thing to consider what model would push any of us over the edge price wise (and yes MWB hopefully will "slaughter" this one) but still.....what would that be?

I can tell you the tempatations float by endlessly but I for one would go $500 to a K for a really decent good sized eastern road Mike

but then clearly I am a REALLY cheap ******* anyway and obvious bottom feeder anyway......so..... 

Hey Bob2, what did you fly?

Ron

Still flying Cubs, Stearmans, and anything else with a tailwheel my buddies will let me near.  Rated in A320, B737/757/767, and something called a Bac 111.  It was a mid-life career change.  I never did make the big bucks, but I got the title - "Captain Bob".

It was double what I made as a systems engineer - and way more fun!  And I bought so many trains I feel a bit overwhelmed.  I no longer get my jollies out of somebody else's work; I have to do it all myself.  Except casting . . .

I spoke with Erik online this week and he says that currently that the estimates from the builder currently have the prices at around $2,700 including full details on the trucks. So unlike some other diesel manufacturers the brake shoes will align with the wheels, this is a particular bugbear with me on expensive models where they don't and the side frames will not be excessively wide apart.  It is worth noting that the less detailed OMI SD70ACEs were priced at around $2,400. So for a little extra you get Erik's bullet proof (Made in the US) drive and great details on the trucks and correctly recessed latches on the hoods like Oriental used to replicate. Hopefully he will consider glazing with slide glass for the cab windows.  I have no doubt the bar will be substantially raised with the rollout of his pilot model.

No, but the bar will in fact be raised with a small production run if they are indeed better than the current high end models.  Anybody can produce a pilot model.  Ask the importers about production problems.

If these will be 2700 with one of Eriks drives they will be a true bargain.

Thats only an estimate based on current numbers[reservations] if deposits are requested in the spring[estimate] then the number of individuals willing to front the 1K[estimate] will really determine ultimate pricing, this will also be tempered by how much the importer is willing to fund the builders minimum # of models to make this project happen.Just a realistic opinion of what a potential buyer could be looking at[I am not one but would like to see the project suceed as I believe High end models further the hobby.

I personally know two or three modelers who are into this sort of perfection and have the bucks to back it up.  If we extrapolate, let's say there are fifty such O Scalers.  It is not a huge community, of course, which can be seen by past production numbers.

The next question is, how many of these folks are ready for a $3000 SD-45, specifically?  Probably not many of the late steam/early Diesel modelers.  So let's say ten.  Is that enough to get this project going?

The figures quoted above appear to be just plucked out of the air. As I assume Erik is running a business and not a 'not for profit institution' or charity I think it is safe to assume that this project would have long ago been aborted if there were only 10 confirmed reservations. As mine is one of them that leaves only another 9 to support this project if your figures are accepted, although a labour of love for Erik I am under no doubt that he is not going to subsidise others train collecting. Here in the UK importers are getting around £3500 or $5600 per locomotive for a Pacific 4-6-2 high end steam locomotive; therefore $2700 seems very reasonable for this project. Bearing also in mind that the population of this little island is about 1/5 of the population of the USA. Why not call Erik to ask him how many reservations he has on this project, I am sure his numbers on the website.  Conjecture does not really assist in getting this project to the marketplace.

With a minimum of 3 units per roadname version to produce a model, Erik has a 105 units sold. I alone have ordered 4 units and considering one more. The OMI SD70 ACes there were 125 plus models made and the SD45 is much more popular.  The OMI models were to retail for $2700 to $2800 thru the dealer network. The MMW models would be priced right with all the extra features such as running board lighting, great drive, working fans, detailed trucks, and so forth.  Finally getting the fine models that the Europeans have been getting for years, as most modelers here are stuck on low end inaccurate models. Then there is 3-rail. Stephen

My numbers were plucked out of the air, and indeed conjecture.  I am free to do that.

Steven's numbers are apparently concrete, and would seem to be enough to complete this project within a year.  The mechanisms are complete, and a hundred grand ought to get the bodies finished and shipped.  This paragraph is conjecture, but feel free to tell me that a hundred grand is not enough to get the ball rolling.

Scott Mann once told me his builder wants $140K minimum.  That is why he negotiates combining projects where he can.

Erik has been offering his drives alone for years.  That is how he got into this business.  That is how I met him at O Scale West about 8 years ago.

As far as I know he will build you a drive for just about any diesel you desire, in either Ow5 or P48 with either .145 or .115 wheels.  They are all individually manufactured, assembled and tested by hand by journeyman machinists and tool and die makers here in the US so they are about $1k each.

So, how many shells does $140K buy? I was thinking that $100k would work for shells and side frames designed so Erik's mechanism could be installed in, say, an hour, adding only a hundred bucks to the concatenation.

Then at that point MMW would have $600 profit for each locomotive - a hundred locomotives gives Eric and his employees $60 grand for a year's effort. Not bad, huh?

What is your angle here ?.

Do you work for nothing? I know that I can't with a family to support. 

Erik has converted or adapted several of my locomotives over the past 6-7 yrs, rest assured there is much more than one hours work (another figure just plucked out of the air??) per locomotive, Erik graciously invited me over to Aurora several years ago to see whats involved.  You have failed also to factor in development costs of the bespoke electronics system that Erik had designed by a third party. The guy didn't work for peanuts. Do you honestly think OMI, G Pk, Key et all work for the love of it.  Your contributions add absolutely nothing of consequence to this thread.

But your post argues for an even higher price, making the case for this effort to not work out.  I agree -Eric should be permitted to make a living doing this.  

Just curious exactly what constitutes a "confirmed" reservation? Has any money changed hands?

Simon