MTH Z 4000 ISSUE ????

that is a puzzle and i am looking forward to hearing some ideas. Do both throttles fail to function with those locos? let's give this a bump!

The reverse unit could be locked in neutral. There is a section in the manual on locking into neutral and how to unlock.  It’s on pages 25-26 of the SD-90 manual.

I bet you are charging the BCR at a higher voltage with the Z1000 than the Z4000.  Try raising the voltage to 12-14 volts, then lower to 10 volts, then either cycle the throttle or press the direction button.

Hi MarkVB: I don't think they are all "locked in neutral", as they all operate perfectly fine when I switch off the Z 4000 and change back over to the Z 1000. I don't do any "re-set" functions to get them to move forward when I use the Z 1000, I just power up, hit the direction button, and off they go!!! Close but no cigar Mark.

Jon: You maybe onto something with the voltage difference between the two types of transformers. I'll go out to the layout right now and follow the procedure you have suggested, and I'll get back to you with the results.

Peter (Buco Australia)

Back again Jon:

No cigar either!!

Took it up to 14V for 60 seconds on the Z 4000......dropped the voltage to about 9V, and nothing....no movement. Hit the "Direction" button and heard one "clank" like I was trying to do a re-set, followed by the "air release" sound.

I think there is something wrong with the program in the boards that is not reading the sine waves of the Z 4000 properly, and not letting the loco's come out of the re-set mode at start-up.

Could this be where I use my "MTH Proto1 re-set chip" ????

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

I assume you have this trouble shooting guide for PS1. It discusses the two dings on page 1,  https://mthtrains.com/service-documents/7043

@Buco posted:

Back again Jon:

No cigar either!!

Took it up to 14V for 60 seconds on the Z 4000......dropped the voltage to about 9V, and nothing....no movement. Hit the "Direction" button and heard one "clank" like I was trying to do a re-set, followed by the "air release" sound.

I think there is something wrong with the program in the boards that is not reading the sine waves of the Z 4000 properly, and not letting the loco's come out of the re-set mode at start-up.

Could this be where I use my "MTH Proto1 re-set chip" ????

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

Peter,

Do the same thing but take it down to 5v or 6v volts instead of 9v.  You need to go lower before you push the "Direction" button.

The reset chip will not help you since your locomotives work just fine with the Z1000.  This reset process is only for engines that don't appear to work with any transformer.

Mike

Have you tried doing a reset? 

In the manual for one of your engines, https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...tion/30dl17372i.pdf, look at pages starting at 24.  On p. 34 there is a list of the different combination of clinks and clanks that indicate the various resets.

The process is somewhat convoluted, and it might take several attempts to get it done.  I've also found that it works better if you stand on one foot and touch your nose while doing it.  Lighting a candle and sprinkling some holy water may also help. 

Thank you guys.....sorry for the tardy reply, life got in the way today!!!

Hokie 71- Thank you for the link to the trouble shooting guide for PS1 loco's. I do remember seeing it at some stage a while ago, but had forgotten all about it. I have added it to my "favorites" list and will have a go at following their advice. I will try again tomorrow (maybe), and we will see how that works out. Watch this space!!

Mellow Hudson Mike - Yeh I have taken it down to about 5V, but as soon as I do, I don't get a chance to hit the "direction button" as the dam fool two bell rings are heard, and it thinks it is in the re-set mode. The more I raise and lower the throttle, the re-set "clicks and clanks" start up. Thanks for the info on the "re-set chip".....I won't try it at this stage, but desperate men do desperate things!!!!

Mallard4468 - Been there and done that (factory re-set) at least three times now. The loco's all run normally when the track is powered by the Z 1000. The moment I turn the Z 1000 off and introduce the Z 4000, all of the above-mentioned loco's won't move. The crazy thing is that other PS1 loco's I have in my fleet run perfectly on the Z 4000.....GO FIGURE!!!!  Been standing on one foot with my finger up my nose (in candle light) praying to a higher being.....but HE is not listening to me at the moment.

More to come, maybe tomorrow.

Peter (Buco Australia)

Crazy stuff.  Amazing that you got two heavy items shipped from my backyard to Down Under and they arrived in one piece - can't imagine how much you paid for shipping.

Here's a grasping-at-straws idea...  Hook up two voltmeters to the track; set one to AC and one to DC.  Connect the Z1000 directly to the track, and place one of the problem locos on the track.  Go through the startup procedure and observe the readings on both of the meters.  I'm assuming that the loco will work in this scenario.  Repeat this process using the Z4000 and observe the meters (ignore the Z4000 displays) - I'm wondering if there is some slight difference in the upper and lower AC voltages that you get from the two transformers during the process.  Also, look to see if the Z4000 generates some DC - maybe the bell or whistle circuit is acting as if the button is partially depressed.

Another thought - do you encounter this problem on both throttles of the Z4000?

Also, you're connecting the transformers directly to the track - they're not going through a TIU - correct?

Hi Peter

I have 2 Zs and 3 PS1s with brc that i regularly run

Here's how I do my start up

When I first turn on the throttle I bring it up to under 10V till it starts up,then while it sits there for at least a minute for the brc to charge,I have it at 12 or 14 V or whatever ,nothing exact just over 10,

Then after a minute at least when I go to move it I bring it below 10V to move it

When you first turn the throttle on and you put it at 10V or above it will never move,I always carefully turn it on slowly to 9. something

One more goofy  idea from the bleachers, could you have flaky bcrs? Maybe take one and replace with a battery to see what happens?

If these run with the Z-1000, the engines are fine.  Why they are not running right with the Z-4000 not normal.  Australian power??

You can raise voltage high to charge BCR, but voltage must be lowered to come out of reset and a rapid lowering would think your moving to reset postion 1 a clink.   Even so, you can hit the direction button to see if that gets it into forward.  I am assuming the handle is not getting voltage low enough to think you want a direction change.  Do you have a lighted on the track?

I have no issues with my bench Z-4000 with any vintage of PS-1 that work.  But I use the direction button when testing.  G

Try using the throttle being off for 2 seconds before throttling up again. Just maybe these engines need more time off.

@GGG posted:

...  Australian power?? ...

That's an interesting theory.  Assuming that one is not an expert in electronics, is there an easy way to test for that? 

If that's the answer, it will really suck after all of the effort and expense entailed on getting those two monsters to Australia. 

FWIW ...

USA->Australia Electrical Appliance Considerations (armory.com)

Peter - 50Hz vs. 60Hz could be the problem.

There must be a clue in the z-4000 or locomotive manuals. here they are. BTW, there seems to be some missing information on page 4 of the z-4000. Both have lots of other details sprinkled throughout.

As far as Australian power, the z-4000 manual indicates it is designed for 50/60 Hz operation so the locomotives must be Ok for 50 Hz also.  You would think something like this would impact all the locos if it was the issue.  Have you put a meter on the input voltage to the Z-4000 from the transformer you have it connected to?

(z-4000 manual attached from: http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=40-4000, SD 90 MAC at https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30dl17372i.pdf )

Just came downstairs from the train room to test my three PS1 engines for you

Two I started at 9V and then took it up to 14V for over a minute to "charge" the BRCs,

Then when bringing the throttle below 10V {9V}to take off in, they make a air whoosh sound then a single dink of the bell.Then hit the direction button and off it goes

The other I started it at 8V and let it sit there at 8V and after a minute hit the direction and off it went

Let me know the outcome of whats going on,I Have PS1s and PS2s,and a few PS3 (I like my PS2s the most,followed by my PS1s}

I've had my PS1s along with the two  Z4000 for over 20yrs now,most of those years with the BRCs and they have worked great

Good luck and let me know

I’m still thinking his 3 nonstarters may not be tolerating 50Hz, despite the transformer being able to.

OK my fellow O gauge railroad engineers....I will answer everyone's questions (to the best of my ability) one at a time.

Mallard4468: Stout Auctions were very good when it came to shipping them to Australia. I asked if they could send them in separate boxes, so they wouldn't "fight" on the way over. The second reason for separate boxes was to get around our crazy customs tax....if the value of the goods is less than $1,000.00 (Aus), there is no duty!!

The cost of both Z4000's was $820.00 (US) combined, which threw it over our $1,000 threshold (crap exchange rate with the US dollar at the moment - 70 cents (US) for one Australian dollar). Anyway, even with two shipping boxes, Stouts only charged me $112.00 (US) all up to get them to me.....they used DHL International, and it only took  them7 days to get here.....I was stoked, and one of them even arrived on a Sunday morning....yeh, a Sunday delivery, something unheard of here!!

As suggested, I will try the two voltmeters and will get back to you, but it may have to wait till Thursday, as the "life thing" is getting in the way again.    And yes.....this crazy thing is happening whatever lever or side of the Z4000 I use.    And no.....I am not sending the power through a TIU (I am not that technologically advanced where I use DCS to run my railroad....my kids call me a Dinosaur....and for a very good reason).

Transman: Thanks for the info.....and yes, that is exactly the same way I start-up all of my MTH PS1 & PS2 loco's that have BCR's, but for some strange reason these 3 PS1 diesel loco's and one steam loco just won't respond as I slowly lower the throttle back to zero and then slowly back up again to get the loco moving. The circuit board thinks I am putting it into "reset" every time I lower the throttle, no matter how slowly I do it.

I will try your suggestion in starting the loco at around 14V for the BCR to charge, and then only bring the throttle down to about 9V, I will listen for the air release (whoosh sound), followed by the single bell "dink", and then I will hit the direction button and see what happens. Stay tuned, but you may not hear from me for a couple of days.....life and all that.

hokie71: You maybe onto something here with a "flaky" BCR. I will swap it out for a new BCR (I have a "few" new ones in my stock of spare parts). I'll let you know what happens.

In the matter of the power supply to the Z4000......yes we convicts run 240V AC to all of our houses, and it will kill you in a heart beat!!!!   For that very reason I purchased a "step-down" transformer built here in Australia to drop our 240V to 110V specifically to run these famous American trains.

I don't believe the difference between the Hz rating has much (if anything) to do with it, because all of my other PS1, PS2, and PS3 loco's run fantastic from the Z4000, and ALL of my MTH loco's run fantastic with the Z1000 transformer......same Hz feeding both transformers. Thank you for the link to the Z4000 instruction sheet and the SD 90 MAC manual.....but I have both of these documents, and have poured over them endlessly trying to figure out what could be going on.

GGG: It doesn't matter how slow I reduce the power, I don't hear the full "air release" sound I normally hear when I throttle down the other PS1 loco's. For some reason it just doesn't seem to recognize that the reset mode should be exited and the forward motion should commence.

Yes I have tried pushing the "direction" button at all sorts of different times and.....NOTHING!!!  If I move the throttle back up and then back to zero it starts making the "clinks and clangs" sound that indicate it is trying to access the different features.  I usually give up at that stage.

Joe Allen: Good suggestion.....I am putting that on my "list" of things to try, in a day or so.....stay tuned!!

Richie C: Please see my comments to hokie 71 above. Logic tells me that if it had something to do with the voltage and Hz ratings between Australia and the US, the Z1000 transformer would not have worked, ever, but yet it does, and it runs all of my MTH loco's for a few years now. And the Z4000 also will run most (bar 4 loco's) of my MTH loco's as well as my Williams loco's as well. For goodness sakes, it also runs my Swiss Buco loco's perfectly (field coils and armature motors).

Mark V. Spadaro: Can't come to grips with the difference between the 50Hz and 60 Hz. Why do all of my other PS1, PS2, and PS3 loco's run beautifully on the Z4000, and ALL of my MTH loco's (every one of them) run just great on the Z1000....same 110 voltage and same 50Hz going to the Z4000.

That's it for the moment.....I hope I haven't missed anyone. Please stay tuned and I will come back in a couple of day with results from all of your suggestions.

Peter  (Buco Australia)

@Buco - Glad to hear that Stouts treated you right on the shipping - considering the weight and distance, $112 seems good to me.  I've bought a couple of items from them, and the shipping was always done well and priced reasonably.

Although I've never had a bad BCR, swapping one out would be a good test to eliminate one more variable.  However, having 4 bad BCRs seems unlikely, especially when the engines run OK with the Z1000.

My guess, and the Hz might contribute to this, is that the four locos are pickier about the exact amount of voltage required, and the Z4000 is crossing that line.

Good luck.

I believe all those 21## engines are 95-96 vintage.  You are dealing with a bottom power board with all sorts of resistors, diodes, relay and caps to detect voltage levels and such to signal a processor how to work.  Early units are far more susceptible to non-compatibility with chopped wave.  I also believe QSI boards had a software selection to let the processor know if it was 60 or 50hz.  This was not part of the MTH production stuff.  Interestingly enough, many of those early boards actually come out of reset and run with a dead battery.  I just upgrade one that ran despite having the original white battery.  26 yo eng and battery.

Put voltage at 12 v for a minute.  Turn transformer voltage off.  Does it play shutdown sounds?  If so BCR and circuit are fine.  Turn voltage back up to 12V for 15secs.  Lower to 8 to 9.5V than press direction button and hold for 1-2 sec and release.  If it does not come out of reset and move, see if lights go off or just dim.  Try it by using handle to lower voltage to off for 1-2 sec than come back up to 8-10V.  If still no movement despite working on the Z-1000, go find some 98-2000 bottom boards and replace the ones on your engine.  Or swap the top processor of a non-working engine to one of them that does.  If it works with Z-4000, you need new bottom boards.  If it doesn't work those processor boards are not handling the Z-4000 power for some reason.  If you had some transformer that could power the Z at 60hz you might see if that resolves it.   G

Hey Peter

Try what GGG wrote,that looks promising

Here's some wisdom from George from quite a while back, might be helpful.   I saved this some time back.

I finally figured it out. I just restored two PS-1 engines that are on the "List" and were deselected. The original chip now runs the engine.

The QSI board has a processor (large multi pin square), an EEPROM ( a small 8 pin chip that has 2K of non-volatile memory for retaining state changes along with other watchdog functions); and the PROM (the replaceable chip that contains the software and is Read Only Memory).

The key is to reset the EEPROM which has stored an Engine ID that the original chip cannot access or circumvent. This engine ID is how QSI could allow a trains to be on a track with voltage, but the processor would ignore the voltage and wait for a combination of horn presses that matched the operator assigned ID before it would start the engine up.

For a deselected engine, the processor starts up and you hear 2 bells indicating proper processor start up, but no engine sounds and the engine will not respond to the direction button. No sound and no motion.

The QSI engine stores IDs in several reset locations, and there is no default value, that is why a reset 18 won't work. To reset the IDs to "NO ID" you need to place a working PROM in the engine that is a chip not on the deselect list. This chip will bypass the engine ID and the engine will start up (MTH did not want the Engine ID feature so the software was suppose to skip that sequence). You now need to access reset position #3 and press the horn button. Then Reset #17 and do the same. Then go to reset #18 and press and hold the horn button until you hear a garbled bell and a clear bell. At that point follow the normal instructions and take voltage to zero and immediately back up to a value less than 10 volts to get the engine to move/lock in the settings.

Reset positions #3 and #17 clear all engine IDs. (Clear the value accidentally set in the EEPROM when a dead battery shutdown occurred).

Then shutdown and wait the 20 secs for the battery circuit and processor to shutdown. Swap the original chip back in and start up the engine. The engine should start up and function correctly. Ensure you have a good battery.

The chips from engines on the list still have a software program that can allow it to happen again especially if there is an aborted shutdown sequence (dead battery).

So replacing the chip is still recommended. But if not, you just have to go through this restore feature.

There are other faults that can occur that may not be restored by this method, but ASC techs have those restoration chips. This specifically fixes engine on the list that have had an engine ID assigned by the dead battery shutdown. G

I looked up the ship dates for these engines on the MTH website. See  below. I think GGG and GRJ have the answer.

Santa Fe SD-90 MAC - 30-2121-1  March 1998

Chicago North Western - DASH 8 - 30-2155-1 August 1999

Pennsylvania SD 45 - 30-2153-1 August 1999

Southern Pacific Cab Forward - 30-1144-1 March 1999

Chris

LVHR

@lehighline posted:

I looked up the ship dates for these engines on the MTH website. See  below. I think GGG and GRJ have the answer.

Santa Fe SD-90 MAC - 30-2121-1  March 1998

Chicago North Western - DASH 8 - 30-2155-1 August 1999

Pennsylvania SD 45 - 30-2153-1 August 1999

Southern Pacific Cab Forward - 30-1144-1 March 1999

Chris

LVHR

Isn't this "answer" inconsistent with the symptoms seen when powering with the Z 1000, i.e. none, no symptoms, they work just fine?

Mike

Yes.  The premier unit with 21 were 96 units.  As 1998 types they are less susceptible to chopped wave.  But they could have compromised components that are causing the issue.

Swapping top board to a unit that worked bottom board can start isolating this.  G

Afternoon gentlemen, it is Thursday afternoon and I have been able to get back to the layout for more testing.

OK....tried everything that has been suggested so far, with the exception of GunRunnerJohn's advice (I think he is referring to the "special MTH chip" to reset the board) and GGG's advice to swap out a board.....he's starting to scare me now!!

What I've done is a short video of the Z4000, with nothing on the track, and noticed that the voltage drops from 9V to nothing when I lower the throttle lever. When I raise the lever it goes from zero to 9V......nothing in between!!!

I think this may be the root of the problem, The voltage drop is insufficient to trigger the board to leave the reset mode, and it either wants to shut down or go to the next cycle of selecting a "feature" to reset.

Please have a look at the video and let me know your thoughts. (Hope the video works!!!)

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

@Buco posted:

Afternoon gentlemen, it is Thursday afternoon and I have been able to get back to the layout for more testing.

OK....tried everything that has been suggested so far, with the exception of GunRunnerJohn's advice (I think he is referring to the "special MTH chip" to reset the board) and GGG's advice to swap out a board.....he's starting to scare me now!!

What I've done is a short video of the Z4000, with nothing on the track, and noticed that the voltage drops from 9V to nothing when I lower the throttle lever. When I raise the lever it goes from zero to 9V......nothing in between!!!

I think this may be the root of the problem, The voltage drop is insufficient to trigger the board to leave the reset mode, and it either wants to shut down or go to the next cycle of selecting a "feature" to reset.

Please have a look at the video and let me know your thoughts. (Hope the video works!!!)

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

The video was fine for me.  I'm not sure if there is a calibration procedure.  Do both arms do the same?  Do both do it even with a small load such as a lighted car?

@Transman posted:

Video didn't play for me

Might be some kind of setting for you.  Worked OK here.

In any case, it shows that slowly moving the throttle up and down causes the voltage to jump between 0 and 9 volts - nothing in between.

@Buco posted:

Afternoon gentlemen, it is Thursday afternoon and I have been able to get back to the layout for more testing.

OK....tried everything that has been suggested so far, with the exception of GunRunnerJohn's advice (I think he is referring to the "special MTH chip" to reset the board) and GGG's advice to swap out a board.....he's starting to scare me now!!

What I've done is a short video of the Z4000, with nothing on the track, and noticed that the voltage drops from 9V to nothing when I lower the throttle lever. When I raise the lever it goes from zero to 9V......nothing in between!!!

I think this may be the root of the problem, The voltage drop is insufficient to trigger the board to leave the reset mode, and it either wants to shut down or go to the next cycle of selecting a "feature" to reset.

Please have a look at the video and let me know your thoughts. (Hope the video works!!!)

...

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

@MartyE posted:

The video was fine for me.  I'm not sure if there is a calibration procedure.  Do both arms do the same?  Do both do it even with a small load such as a lighted car?

FWIW...

I have a Z4000 and Z1000 hooked up so it was easy to do a quick test.  One side of the Z4000 went from 0 to about 5 volts; the other side initially went straight from 0 to 10 - when I put an engine on the track, the lower limit was about 6 volts.  Interestingly, my Z1000 went up and down much more gradually, starting/ending about 3 volts.

@Mallard4468 posted:

FWIW...

I have a Z4000 and Z1000 hooked up so it was easy to do a quick test.  One side of the Z4000 went from 0 to about 5 volts; the other side initially went straight from 0 to 10 - when I put an engine on the track, the lower limit was about 6 volts.  Interestingly, my Z1000 went up and down much more gradually, starting/ending about 3 volts.

Remember, reading the voltage of the Z1000 with a conventional multimeter is likely not to give you an accurate voltage reading.  Even the cheap true-RMS meters don't seem to read the chopped waveform outputs all that accurately.

OK gentlemen.....what's the go.

Are these Z4000 transformers built to only start operating at approx. 9V???

I have tested both sides of both Z4000 transformers I have, and they are all the same......nothing till about 9V from zero upward. Have I purchased two "dud" transformers from Stouts??

Is there a "fix" to get the Z4000 to start supplying power at 2V, like my Z1000 does??

Gunrunner John......should I use the Proto-Sound reset chip (pictured below) on the three diesels and one steamer that appear to be hyper sensitive to the requirement for a gradual drop in voltage below the 9.5V the Z4000 can only deliver?? 

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

Both sides of both of my Z4000s work from zero to 2,3, 4, Volts, whatever I put it at

The Video wouldn't play on my firefox browser,ok on google

Thanks for that info Joe, glad you finally got to see my poor quality video....seems like I may have two partially defective Z4000's.

I'm just wondering if there is something I can adjust inside them to get them to continue making contact all the way down the coil, till they reach zero.

Anyone out there that can shed some light on Z4000 transformer repairs???

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

@Buco posted:

Thanks for that info Joe, glad you finally got to see my poor quality video....seems like I may have two partially defective Z4000's.

I'm just wondering if there is something I can adjust inside them to get them to continue making contact all the way down the coil, till they reach zero.

Anyone out there that can shed some light on Z4000 transformer repairs???

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

My 2 cents (.03 Australian?)...

I understand your frustration after all of the effort and expense.  But if most of your PS-1 locos work with the new Z4000 transformers, and your other locos work OK with them, leave the Z4000s alone and use the Z1000 for those few engines.  The risks of causing further damage outweigh the benefits.

There us an authorized MTH tech in Australia.  I’ll get his contact info Monday and see if there is anything you can do to correct the problem.  I’m going back to MTH part-time.

@GGG, @Alan Mancus Reaching out to Alan and GGG who  seem to have been into the Z4000 in past threads. Maybe they have an idea of what the issue might be - could it be as simple as pulling it apart and cleaning or replacing a wiper on the coil? Perhaps the gear alignment on the small potentiometer in shipping half way around the world?

Morning gentlemen (it's Sunday morning "down under" in Australia)

Mallard4468: You have been reading my mind!!! I was thinking the very same thing.....leave well enough alone!! The three diesels and one steamer work fabulously on the Z1000, so why not just use this transformer to run them. Until someone here on the forum advises I can use the MTH reset chip to fix these loco's, it is staying in its packet. And your currency conversion is spot on!!

Jon G: I already have the name of the MTH technician here in Australia.....you gave it to me late last year when I was having trouble with my PS3 "Challenger". His name is Bill Veale, and he lives in New South Wales, just outside of a small coastal town called Kempsey.

I have been to visit him (5 hour drive down, and 5 hour drive back) last year, to drop-off and then pick-up the repaired "Challenger", and he has an incredible MTH collection, track layout, and workshop facility. I was able to source a new PS3 tender board from an MTH repairer in the US (who has asked to remain nameless at this stage), and Bill installed the new board for me. He got the "Challenger" up and running faultlessly again, and I found his technical knowledge of all things MTH incredible.

Anyway, I had already spoken to him briefly about the problem with the selective loco's early in the piece, and will now call him again tomorrow to let him know about my findings with the Z4000 transformers. He may have a repair solution......fingers crossed. Also...it's great to hear of your return to MTH again, albeit part-time....your skills will be put to good use.

Hokie 71: I'm also hoping GGG or Alan Mancus will get back to us with some insight into repairing these Z4000 transformers......and yeh, I'm also hoping it is something as simple as cleaning the "wiper" to make full contact all the way down the coil. I've delved into the innards of my Buco transformers on more than one occasion (240V), so I am fairly confident in opening up the Z4000.

Peter......(Buco Australia)

@Buco posted:

Morning gentlemen (it's Sunday morning "down under" in Australia)

Mallard4468: You have been reading my mind!!! I was thinking the very same thing.....leave well enough alone!! The three diesels and one steamer work fabulously on the Z1000, so why not just use this transformer to run them. Until someone here on the forum advises I can use the MTH reset chip to fix these loco's, it is staying in its packet. And your currency conversion is spot on!!

Jon G: I already have the name of the MTH technician here in Australia.....you gave it to me late last year when I was having trouble with my PS3 "Challenger". His name is Bill Veale, and he lives in New South Wales, just outside of a small coastal town called Kempsey.

I have been to visit him (5 hour drive down, and 5 hour drive back) last year, to drop-off and then pick-up the repaired "Challenger", and he has an incredible MTH collection, track layout, and workshop facility. I was able to source a new PS3 tender board from an MTH repairer in the US (who has asked to remain nameless at this stage), and Bill installed the new board for me. He got the "Challenger" up and running faultlessly again, and I found his technical knowledge of all things MTH incredible.

Anyway, I had already spoken to him briefly about the problem with the selective loco's early in the piece, and will now call him again tomorrow to let him know about my findings with the Z4000 transformers. He may have a repair solution......fingers crossed. Also...it's great to hear of your return to MTH again, albeit part-time....your skills will be put to good use.

Hokie 71: I'm also hoping GGG or Alan Mancus will get back to us with some insight into repairing these Z4000 transformers......and yeh, I'm also hoping it is something as simple as cleaning the "wiper" to make full contact all the way down the coil. I've delved into the innards of my Buco transformers on more than one occasion (240V), so I am fairly confident in opening up the Z4000.

Peter......(Buco Australia)

Good luck with your "local" () guy - I hope it's a simple fix - hopefully just a cleaning.  I'm astounded that there's a MTH tech Down Under - who knew?

Re the reset chip - considering that the locos work properly with the Z1000, I doubt that the chip is the answer.  IMO, another case of leaving well enough alone.

That reset chip is ONLY good for the 3 Clank software conflict symptom.  If you apply power and you get 3 loud clanks and the engine does not run that is when you use the chip.   At this point these engines work on one transformer so not the issue.  G

Alright boys and girls.......here is the latest!!

On advice from my MTH tech (and others), I pulled the cover off one Z4000 and checked the alignment of the drive gears between the throttle handles and the "pod". I have attached two photos.

As you can see the "marks" don't align, and I immediately thought "Here is my problem"!!!

Pulled the "pod" mounting off, lowered the throttle lever and tried to get the two "dots" to align....to no avail!!

Turned the "pod" gear all the way down to zero, turned the throttle handle all the way down to zero, meshed the gears and reinstalled the "pod" mounting to the base of the transformer. Tried the power output again from zero upward and.....NO CIGAR......nothing had changed!!!!

I removed the "pod" once again, and just tested it on its own. Turned the transformer on and slowly wound the small gear up and watched the digital readout on the transformer's screen. YUP.....starts at 2V, and then nothing (zero, zip, zilch) and I have to continue turning the gear until it gets to a point and....9.5V appears on the screen.

Thought maybe the digital readout on the screen my be faulty, so I hooked up my own voltmeter. It told me the exact same thing to with-in 1V. In desperation I disassembled  the voltage "pod" and inspected the "wipers" and the two ringed surfaces they make contact with.......nothing unusual there.

Put it all back together again, tested it again, and I am right back where I started.......there is no low voltage power being sent to the track connections below 9.5/10V from both throttle handles, on both Z4000 transformers.

QUESTION: Were some of these early Z4000 transformers manufactured with 10V start-up "pods", similar to my Swiss Buco transformers that start at 10V?? Do I need to get new voltage "pods"???

Z4000 Serial No's:  121044289 and 039814022

Your thoughts please gentlemen.

Peter......(Buco Australia)

Ok, I was at MTH today and checked with Don on the Z4000 voltage issue.  Apparently, that is not an issue, but typical of the Z4000’s.  Unloaded Z4000’s can jump from 0 volts to 10 or more as soon as the throttle is moved.  I checked mine and the one at MTH on the test layout.  Some went to 7-8 volts, others went to 11 volts.  However, adding a load to the layout, a few lighted lock-ons, maybe lighted cars should drop the voltage below 10 volts to the loco so will come out of neutral.  The board alone may not provide enough load to the transformer.

So, the Z-Controller is working properly, as well as the Z-4000.  Don’t believe anything can be done with the Z-4000 other than add a load to it.  Some behave differently.  The three I tested were all different, but the voltage did drop with a load.  The 50Hz and the voltage output on your stepdown transformer (240 to 120) could be affecting the output voltage.

Thanks for the super quick response Jon G.

I'll go out to the layout and add some passenger carriages with lights (incandescent) to these problem loco's and see what happens.

Thanks again for following this up with the guys at MTH....I really appreciate your efforts.

Stay tuned!!!

Peter.......(Buco Australia)

@Jon G posted:

Ok, I was at MTH today and checked with Don on the Z4000 voltage issue.  Apparently, that is not an issue, but typical of the Z4000’s.  Unloaded Z4000’s can jump from 0 volts to 10 or more as soon as the throttle is moved.  I checked mine and the one at MTH on the test layout.  Some went to 7-8 volts, others went to 11 volts.  However, adding a load to the layout, a few lighted lock-ons, maybe lighted cars should drop the voltage below 10 volts to the loco so will come out of neutral.  The board alone may not provide enough load to the transformer.

So, the Z-Controller is working properly, as well as the Z-4000.  Don’t believe anything can be done with the Z-4000 other than add a load to it.  Some behave differently.  The three I tested were all different, but the voltage did drop with a load.  The 50Hz and the voltage output on your stepdown transformer (240 to 120) could be affecting the output voltage.

Thanks for the quick reply.  Although it seems like odd behavior, knowing that it's "normal" will prevent any fruitless disassembly of the transformer or engines.

@Buco posted:

Thanks for the super quick response Jon G.

I'll go out to the layout and add some passenger carriages with lights (incandescent) to these problem loco's and see what happens.

Thanks again for following this up with the guys at MTH....I really appreciate your efforts.

Stay tuned!!!

Peter.......(Buco Australia)

Looking back at one of my previous posts, putting a conventional engine on the track changed my Z4000 to start at about 6 volts instead of going straight from 0 to 10.

Good to know that you didn't get a bum transformer.  And thanks for your earlier post with pictures showing the things you tried.

@Transman posted:

Both sides of both of my Z4000s work from zero to 2,3, 4, Volts, whatever I put it at

The Video wouldn't play on my firefox browser,ok on google

I couldn't play it either.

Morning guys:

It is with a heavy heart I must report back on the latest suggestions to increase the load on the transformer during the engine start-up phase.

Jon G: Placed a seven car passenger train (bogie axles- 8 wheels per carriage) behind one of the problem diesels. Six carriages have one incandescent light globe inside them (one also has a red taillight as well) and the seventh car has two incandescent light globes inside it, so I believe there was a fair load on the transformer at start-up.

Nothing changed....the voltage drop got down to about 7V, then nothing to zero. Nothing from zero back up to about 7V, and the loco still just sits there with insufficient power to trigger the circuit board, and remove it from the re-set mode and into forward.  Two bells ring as the lever is lowered, then nothing!!!

The shut down process is also a little weird.....the idling engine sound does not play after the two bells ring, and I only hear it come on for a couple of brief seconds, just before the loco actually switches off, and then I get that strange little "fart" sound, right at the end like all my PS1 loco's do.

Mallard4468: Too late... I have already disassembled one of the Z4000, and put it back together, as well as opening one of the diesels up and removing the TVS I had installed - to no avail!!! I'm clutching at straws now, but I will try running one of my open-frame motor Buco loco's from the Z4000, and watch and see what the voltage reads. These Swiss loco's need at least 10V to get them going, and they do draw some amps, so it may be an interesting exercise.

Watch this space (again) guys.....I am growing weary!!!

Peter.... (Buco Australia)

That's really strange.  Voltage below 10 volts should allow you to cycle a PS1 board.  

- Advancing the throttle to 12 volts, letting the sounds start (and BCR charge for 45-60 sec, if equipped)
- Lower the throttle to less than 10 volts
- Press the direction button (do the sounds stay on and not drop out?)
- Raise the throttle and it should move forward

Are you using the same procedure with the Z-Controller?

The shutdown sounds should play for a few seconds after shutdown.  The “fart” sound at the end is normal.  Are you using a rechargeable battery or BCR?  Is the resistor next to the battery plug on the bottom board burned (it’s for the battery charge circuit)?

@BobbyD posted:

I couldn't play it either.

Turns out video didn't work on my Firefox browser but worked on google browser

Some engines work on the Z-4000.  The ones that don't work on Z-4000 work on the Z-1000.  That pretty much means the engine battery and ability of the transformer to cycle power is fine.  The load of a PS-1 board and the lights of the engine is pretty good.  Press the direction button of the Z-4000 do the track power lights go out?  If so voltage has been interrupted.   Attach a voltmeter and see what voltage is with a direction button depression.

We are just going in circles now with repeat ? and answers. G

Afternoon gentlemen:

Sorry for my "silence", as life is getting in the way again, and I can't get to the layout as often as I would like.

Joe: Good to hear you could finally view my poor videoing skills.

Jon G.......what can I say.....

I followed your recommendations to the letter, yesterday afternoon (Wednesday), and still came up with the same results. No cigars for any of us!!!!

I place the loco on the track......turn the voltage on the Z4000 up to 12V (actually 11.5V on my multimeter at the track) and leave it there for 60 seconds to charge the BCR.

The moment I bring the throttle handle down to 9V on the Z4000 (with or without additional loads - lights etc) the voltage drops  straight  to  zero, and I get 2 bell rings......no air line exhaust sound, no diesel engine idling sound....nothing. My multimeter confirms the drop in voltage (at the track) at the 9V mark to nothing, the moment the throttle handle continues to be lowered below 9V.

I bring the throttle lever back up to 9.5/10V, and sometimes I get the "clank" sound, telling me I am in the re-set mode, and to pick a feature I want to change. If I press the direction button at this stage for 2 seconds, while still at 9.5V, I get more "clinks and clanks", confirming the loco is definitely in the reset mode.

No amount of throttling up or down, or pressing of the direction button above or below 10V will alter the position of the circuit board to leave "re-set", and go to neutral, to get the loco to cycle to the forward position.

Next test:

I disconnect the Z4000 and re-connect the Z1000........hook-up my multimeter to the track again, and go through the same start-up process. My multimeter reads 10V at the track, and this equates to a small mark I have placed on the dial face of the transformer, to let me know where 10V is in relation to the pointer on the throttle, and the "orange stripes" MTH have printed on the transformer's fascia .  The bottom "stripe" on the fascia equates to 2.5V, before the transformer shuts down to zero volts.

Place the same loco on the track, go through the same start-up procedure for charging the BCR, slowly lower the throttle to just above 2V, and I get the air line release sound. Raise the throttle within 2 seconds, and the loco starts to move at around 5V. As I continue raising the throttle, the loco goes faster, and the diesel engine sound increases under the load, to a point when I have about 7V - 8V going to the track.

With the loco running at around 8V (good freight train speed) I hit the direction button (and release it), and it comes to a steady stop in neutral. Hit and release the direction button again, and it slowly moves off in reverse till it is up and running at the same speed.....nothing unusual here!!!

What I have noticed on the Z1000 is I cannot get the loco to leave the "re-set" mode at the initial start-up (after charging the BCR) if I just hit the direction button while the voltage is still at 10V. It tries to go into the "select a feature" re-set mode, and I have to literally lower the throttle handle to about 2V to trigger the board, and then everything is working again. These loco's will not respond to just pushing the direction button at the initial start-up phase.....I must lower the throttle manually to 2V, and then back up again, to get them to move forward.

SUMMARY: It seems to me that these three PS1 diesels, and one PS1 steamer are super sensitive, and require a constant and steady lowering of the voltage to about 2V to get them to cycle properly.

What I intend to do in the next day or so (life permitting) is to do a video on my phone of the start-up process using the Z4000, and have audio as well, so you can here the "clinks & clanks", the 2 bell rings, the lack of air pressure release, and the muted diesel engine sounds as I raise and lower the throttle, and hit the direction button. I am hoping this will give you guys an idea of what is happening when I use the Z4000 to power the track.

As before......stay tuned, cause there is more to come......the fat lady is not singing yet!!!

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

For those of us that cannot view the video, how fast (or slow) are you moving the throttle on the Z4000?

Morning BobbyD:

Sorry you can't watch the video.....I am trying to do another one using my new phone, but I need my daughters help to set-up some "I Tune account"?????    I'm a dinosaur, and I am proud of it!!!

In relation to the way I bring the throttle back down.....it is always slow, just like I do with the Z1000. If I go too fast it thinks I want to do a feature re-set.

What I was trying to show is how the voltage drops off completely to zero when I continue down past 9.5V.

I will post a new video using the Z4000 with one of the "problem" diesel loco's on the track, so everyone can watch and listen as I go through the start-up process.

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

I never thought the speed of handle movement mattered, only where the voltage was at the start.  If it thinks it is above 10V it assumes you do not want to come out of reset.   Once you have charged the bcr, once for the period it should have sufficient charge the next time.

So if you turn on power and raise voltage only to 8-9 volts and let it sit for 15 to 30 sec, than hit the direction button.  It should go.  Granted I am here is USA but on my test bench for working on engine I always use the direction button to come out of reset with voltage just under 10V.  For any vintage PS-1.  1994 to 2000.

Start out with something around 8.5V on the Z-4000.  Hit direction button.  If it comes out of reset but not moving much raise the voltage.  Should move. G

The Proto1 behavior (failure to come out of reset except at times when you very slowly raise the voltage, sounds don't play for about 5 seconds after power is cut) you describe is, someone else mentioned, typical of low battery voltage.  However you are using BCRs which require an initial startup voltage of about 10v for at least a minute to charge the BCR's capacitor then voltage down for about 2 sec to get out of reset.  Is this operating behavior the same with ALL of your proto1 trains?  Do you have any basic conventional or proto2 or proto3 locos to test?

Out of curiosity, did you test the voltage of the BCR after the initial 1min charge to verify that the BCR received/maintained that needed voltage?  Maybe the locomotive's charging circuit is not functioning properly.  Also consider a quick test by replacing the BCR with a new 9 volt alkaline and attempt to run the loco.  Also verify that the battery connectors are not corroded.

Afternoon GGG:

Did as you advised.......charged the BCR for 60 seconds at 10V on the Z4000......lowered the throttle to 7V, waited for about 20 seconds then hit the direction button.......2 bell dings (ding ding) and then nothing. The loco just sits there with the low idle sound no matter how high I raise the throttle handle.

Bring the throttle back to around 6V, wait a couple more seconds, then hit the direction button again......still nothing but the two bell dings, and no movement, no matter how many volts I put back into the track. Turn the Z000 down to zero....get one bell ding and then the engine sounds lower and switch off, followed by the obligatory little "fart" right at the end of the shut-down phase.

Immediately switched back to the Z1000....raised the throttle from zero to 10V and get two bell dings, and engine start-up sounds.....lower it again slowly to zero (remember the BCR is already fully charged from my attempts with the Z4000) and the air release sounds. I raise the throttle up again from zero slowly almost immediately, and the loco starts to move off, as it should. The higher I raise the throttle the faster the loco goes.  What can I say??????

Peter....(Buco Australia)

Afternoon Keystone:

Thanks for coming to my party, but you have missed the best part........go back to my original post on page 1, and all of your questions will be answered.

Let me know your thoughts if you have any further ideas after seeing what I have been trying over the past week or more.

Peter......(Buco Australia)

I did a quick search on threads comparing the z1000 and z4000 to see if any clue had been mentioned in them.  Sadly, no hints of any issues related to Buco's 4 errant locomotives (or one errant z4000?).  At any rate, GRJ had posted some scope shots of the wave forms. Don't you wonder if there is some fufu dust involved in these wave forms at 50Hz and the 4 PS-1 locomotives.  The puzzling part is the errant locos work on the chopped wave and not on the more sinusoidal wave.

Buco, I may have missed it, but have you tried or did the four errant locos work ok on a standard sinusoidal transformer like an old 1033 or similar?

Z1000 and Z4000 Waveform Outputs? | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Here's some Z1000 waveforms at various throttle settings and power loading.

Here are some Z4000 waveforms the same kind of tests, these are with an 8 amp load.

Here's the Z4000 unloaded half throttle and full throttle.

People only read the last post typically that is why this horse is dead as a doornail from the beating.  It just does not like the Z-4000 power.  Which is odd because it was made for the PS-1.  Typically, some Z-1000 controllers present problems to PS-1.

As I posted before, if this was me, just to try and figure out what was going on, I would move the Top board with chip of a unit that does not like the Z-4000 and install on the bottom board of the engine that does like the Z-4000.  If it runs now, that means the processing of the power on the bottom board doesn't like the Z-4.  At that point for giggles, I would put the TOP board that does in the bottom of the board that didn't like it and see if it still doesn't.  Who knows it might work between the combo.

If the swap does not work, than top board is more of a factor, and if the good top board works on the bad bottom, that would confirm that the top board and software is the issue.

One last thought, don't remember did you try channel 2 of the Z-4000?  G

Afternoon gentlemen........I'M BACK!!!!!

Life and doctors appointments (for the wife - Sue) have kept be very busy, and away from the layout.

Anyway, I was finally able to do a couple of videos this afternoon showing me using the Z4000 (both throttles), and the Z1000......trying to get the "North Western" PS1 Dash-8 diesel moving.

I also read the Owners Operating Instruction booklet again for this loco, and on page 5 it clearly says......."In order for ProtoSounds to properly initiate the system check, do not advance the transformer throttle past 10 Volts when you first enter RESET, wait for the diesel startup sounds to begin, and then slowly turn the transformer throttle to the off position, and then back on again to enter the forward phase. Interrupting the power too quickly may cause the system to enter RESET (signaled by two dings of the bell)".

Well that is exactly what is happening....two bell dings every time.......no matter how slowly I drop the throttle handle on the Z4000, or hit the direction button at the lowest voltage it will go down to (8V thereabouts).

hokie71: "Buco, I may have missed it, but have you tried or did the four errant locos work ok on a standard sinusoidal transformer like an old 1033 or similar?"

Not sure what you mean by a sinusoidal transformer, but I was originally using a Lionel RS-1 transformer when I first started running American trains (Lionel, Williams, and then MTH), and it ran all of my PS1 loco's with no problems. It was only when I advanced to the PS2 loco's it showed its short-comings in getting the various "features" to work. On advice from the Forum members, I purchased the Z1000, and all was well again, even running PS3 loco's that eventually graced my layout.

Thanks also for the waveform output details......it appears to me that the two transformers put out different waveforms. I think this is just crazy coming from the same manufacturer (MTH), and purporting to be able to run all of their different PS1 loco's.

What I do know is that my old Swiss Buco transformers will not get these loco's out of the RESET mode either. The Buco transformers start at 10V, and go up to 23V to get the stator coils and open framed motor armatures to start turning. They need a bit of grunt to get going.

GGG: What you're suggesting is "well beyond my pay grade" and skill sets!!!! I was a forensic structural engineer in my past life, and know nothing about modern electronic circuit boards. I would be afraid I would plug the wrong thing together, and blow the whole thing up!!

Anyway, have a look at my attempt to video the Z4000 trying to start-up the Dash-8. There are 2 videos......the first using Track 1 throttle, and the second using Track 2 throttle, as well as the Direction button.

I did a third video showing the Z1000 in use, and how it gets the loco up and running, just like the manual says to do it, with the horn and bell features working just fine. I will attach that video to my next post, due to the size of the three videos combined.

Sit back and enjoy (and I hope everyone can open them this time).

PS: I had already charged the BCR before I started doing the video, so you didn't have to sit through 60 seconds of nothing happening.

Peter.......(Buco Australia)

As I promised (threatened), here is the third video.....this time using the Z1000 (poverty-pack) transformer, for your viewing pleasure.

Jon G: I have been talking to the MTH tech (Bill Veale) here in Australia about this transformer conundrum, and he asked to be remembered to you. He also said to mention a former MTH tech - Jeff Strank - who he fondly remembers from the early days when he was in the States doing his accreditation to become the MTH tech in Australia.

Anyway.....let the show begin!!!

Peter.......(Buco Australia)

Yes, I remember Bill.  He was at MTH twice when I worked there.

Swapping is not hard. If you are just moving a top board over.  Remove volume plug and speaker.  remove tape or plastic band.  Carefully pull while rocking board gently.  Pins come out of bottom board and top will only fit one way. Plug the new top in reattach speaker and volume.  G

Funny, I am upgrading a Brass Weaver and it has the QSI 3 board set which is similar to MTH.  The instructions clearly state that MTH Z-750 is not approved along with a few other non ac pure sine wave transformers.  It goes on to say that the software in the later QSI 2000 can detect the input waveform and select automatically how to operate on it.

The bottom is really an analog circuit to determine Voltage level, operating state and offset detection and time.  Using a relay, diodes, caps.  Based on a logic system it can use those to determine what you want to do.  Like trigger the rear coupler when high voltage and whistle in neutral.   Voltage above 10 stay in reset mode.  Bell for 3sec activate PSA.  I guess the top board processor coupled with new software allowed the set to operate on the electronic wave form.  There were bottom board and top board changes, and I know the processor memory and also the software changed and can create compatibility issues with chip swaps.  Unfortunately it really was not well documented and the guy that became the distributor passed awhile back.  MTH had a non disclosure agreement also.  When I first started MTH was already into PS-2 3V but you would see a lot of PS-1s come in for repair.  Still do.  DCS and TMCC made it obsolete, but it was state of the art conventional control when it came out.  Conventional trains sitting on a powered track waiting for a whistle bell combo to activate it's ID (QSI Only) mth did not want that feature.  MTH had a QSI tech manual and I have heard one or 2 other techs mention they had or seen one.  But never seen anything on the web.

I just reverse engineered how they worked and figured out a few trick on the software ID issue. Just like I did with PS-2 3V boards.  Frankly the MTH documentation in the ASC on certain items was not correct.  Like battery circuit.    G

Maybe a dumb question here as I don't know much about the workings of PS1 locos, but just trying to mention something that may possibly be worth considering.  If there were a component failure in the Z4000 that allowed a significant DC voltage to pass through to the outputs, would that explain the issue seen here with these locomotives?

Would it be worthwhile to use a separate meter to check the Z4000 AC and DC output voltages connected to the track with the PS1 locomotive on the track, and also compare the AC readings on the Z4000 panel meter to the separate multi-meter?

@SteveH posted:

Maybe a dumb question here as I don't know much about the workings of PS1 locos, but just trying to mention something that may possibly be worth considering.  If there were a component failure in the Z4000 that allowed a significant DC voltage to pass through to the outputs, would that explain the issue seen here with these locomotives?

Would it be worthwhile to use a separate meter to check the Z4000 AC and DC output voltages connected to the track with the PS1 locomotive on the track, and also compare the AC readings on the Z4000 panel meter to the separate multi-meter?

Leave no stone unturned at this point.  I suggested checking for DC voltage about 50+ posts ago, but don't know if it was ever done.

Morning guys:

GGG: I might give it a go and see if I can swap out the top board from one of my other PS1 loco's that does run on the Z4000......cause you make it sound soooo easy.

SteveH & Mallard4468: Sorry for not reporting back on that suggestion. Yes I did rig up 2 multimeters to the track, one switched to AC and the other switched to DC. Watched as I raised the throttle to 10V, and the AC multimeter fluctuated between 10V and 9.5V. There was no reading on the second multimeter switched to DC.

I was convinced there was no "leak" of DC current from the Z4000 during the AC cycle. I also tested all of the outlets at the back of the Z4000 for any DC leakage, and nothing was found.

BOTTOM LINE:     I GIVE UP!!!!!   

I'm going to leave the Z1000 transformer hooked up to the layout, along with my two other Buco transformers, which are all isolated from each other with "on-off" toggle switches. I will add the Z4000 to the line-up, and install an "on-off" toggle switch to it as well, and use it on all my other MTH loco's that love it. The three diesel loco's and one steam loco that "hate it" will be controlled with the Z1000........problem solved!!!

We can all get a good nights sleep now!!!

Thank you one and all for the suggestions, help, and most importantly, the information that has come to light about some of these early MTH QSI PS1 loco's, and their apparent incompatibly with the Z4000 transformers. Good work there GGG!!!

Peter......(Buco Australia)

Now you can move on to finding components and implementing DCS. 

Mallard4468.....I know I am a glutton for punishment, but I am steering well away from the DCS minefield. Like I said earlier, I am a dinosaur.....just ask my kids!!!

Peter......(Buco Australia)