NYC Classics

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would expect that if Lionel did do a Mercury, that the possibility of a brass hybrid may be the best chance they would have of doing it right. I'm not sure for the K4 Torpedoes if that would be the same type of ideal situation, but what do I know. Either way there is a chance to do a better locomotive. Maybe we can get Pat to make one, lol.

The last semi stream-lined engine they offered in Hybrid brass didn't get enough orders to proceed.  Brass is best  kept for the highly detailed engines.

@superwarp1 posted:

The last semi stream-lined engine they offered in Hybrid brass didn't get enough orders to proceed.  Brass is best  kept for the highly detailed engines.

I’d agree with that Gary, 100% ……a diecast streamliner is absolutely fine by me,….they can capture the important details of a shrouded engine in diecast perfectly fine,….now get some of that crazy plumbing H10’s and what nots have, and that’s best done in brass,….

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Hey Pete,

Thanks for raining so thoroughly on my parade.  I purchased both the locomotive and the cars brand new from 3rd rail, have had them ever since, and are quite happy with them, both in appearance and in operation.

On the other hand, in spite of my dedication to them I would agree if the general consensus is that they're 3rd Rail's worst effort ever.  Odd?

Mike

Hey Mike, I bought one direct from 3rd Rail back in the day and enjoy it as well.  The only issue I’ve had is the Seuthe smoke unit wick burning out, which is regular maintenance.  That said, the valve gear is delicate like Pete said and something to watch when handling it. As I recall, this was 3rd Rail’s first (and only?) attempt with die cast. The engine was significantly delayed in coming to market and, as noted, does not have some of the impressive detail that is standard for 3rd Rail.  It did come with lighted drivers which was impressive for the time.

The matching cars were impressive, especially the observation with its unique back end.  However I wasn’t able to swing for those.  So mine pulls MTH 20th Century streamlined cars instead.

Just to be clear my gripe isn’t about it being diecast though apparently many don’t realize that it is looking at the ones offered on the auction sites as “3rd Rail Brass engine”. Its more about the wide open cab and delicate running gear.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Just to be clear my gripe isn’t about it being diecast though apparently many don’t realize that it is looking at the ones offered on the auction sites as “3rd Rail Brass engine”. Its more about the wide open cab and delicate running gear.

Pete

Gotta call it like ya see it Pete,….I thought I wanted one too, but after holding one in my hands at a train show, your observations sure ain’t unfounded,…..nice shell, but that’s about it,….😳

Pat

@PRRronbh posted:

Hi Skip, no not referring to you.  I know you have a MTH P&LE A2a Berk but do recall the first time I saw you post it, you called it a NYC engine instead of P&LE.

The P&LE was at the time a subsidiary of the New York Central System. Are you drawing a distinction between NYC and NYCS?  At the time, 1947-48 The P&LE was a subsidiary of the New York Central System and as such could correctly be referred to as a New York Central locomotive. I am a fan of the New York Central and all of its subsidiary lines. Most of the time I believe I do refer to the A2a as a NYC/P&LE locomotive, but calling it a New York Central locomotive is not necessarily wrong.  The lettering on the tender stands as a testament to that fact.

@superwarp1 posted:

The last semi stream-lined engine they offered in Hybrid brass didn't get enough orders to proceed.  Brass is best  kept for the highly detailed engines.

Well wait a minute, I wasn't saying the shell would be brass. I also thought that for the majority of steam engines there really isn't any brass on them at all. I do know that they have thrown around the term "brass hybrid", and there has been some of the detailing in brass, handrails, valves or some other such stuff(maybe something in the cab?). Should I have said diecast with tons of brass detailing where needed?

@NYC Fan posted:

The P&LE was at the time a subsidiary of the New York Central System. Are you drawing a distinction between NYC and NYCS?  At the time, 1947-48 The P&LE was a subsidiary of the New York Central System and as such could correctly be referred to as a New York Central locomotive. I am a fan of the New York Central and all of its subsidiary lines. Most of the time I believe I do refer to the A2a as a NYC/P&LE locomotive, but calling it a New York Central locomotive is not necessarily wrong.  The lettering on the tender stands as a testament to that fact.

I am confident that the P&LE management and crews did NOT see it that way.  That is why they fought to keep themselves out of the PC.  Then late won their total independence as of February 1979 as the "NEW P&LE."

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

I am confident that the P&LE management and crews did NOT see it that way.  That is why they fought to keep themselves out of the PC.  Then late won their total independence as of February 1979 as the "NEW P&LE."

Ron

What’s the PC merger got ANYTHING to do with the A2’s?…..by the time the P&LE had their Independence Day, all of the A2’s were made into refrigerators and bicycles…….the A2a Berkshire was part of the NEW YORK CENTRAL SYSTEM. that system consisted of:

1. New York Central

2. The B&A

3. The Big Four

4. Lake Shore & Michigan Central

5. AND THE P&LE…😉 and probably some other roads I’ve forgotten about ..

Pat

@PRRronbh posted:

I am confident that the P&LE management and crews did NOT see it that way.  That is why they fought to keep themselves out of the PC.  Then late won their total independence as of February 1979 as the "NEW P&LE."

Ron

But the A2a's were scrapped over a decade before the PC merger. They belonged to a different era when the New York Central System had control over its subsidiaries including the P&LE. They in fact had the power to force the A2a's on the P&LE when they really didn't want them.

@NYC Fan posted:

But the A2a's were scrapped over a decade before the PC merger. They belonged to a different era when the New York Central System had control over its subsidiaries including the P&LE. They in fact had the power to force the A2a's on the P&LE when they really didn't want them.

I guess the NYC management didn't have "control" over the P^LE when the P&LE management did not go along into the PC (PennCentral merger!

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

I guess the NYC management didn't have "control" over the P^LE when the P&LE management did not go along into the PC (PennCentral merger!

Ron

Again, what does this have to do with the A2a New York central Systems 2-8-4 Berkshire type steam locomotive?……the discussion has drifted way off course of THAT particular locomotive……but not by us!……

Pat

Did someone say NYC Classics? Well, after about or over 6 years of insane searching and lots of bad luck(I guess), I finally have caught my big fish as it were. Finally, 28084, Lionel's New York Central J3a Dreyfuss Hudson is mine. While at York, I was aware that it was on the TCA Buy/Sell site. York proved to either be hiding or just my luck to miss this engine if it was there.

So, I popped a line to the seller Rich and asked him if he still had it, I think it was late Thursday evening of York. Friday morning I saw he answered and everything proceeded from there. Maybe I paid a bit more than what should be going price, but this was still completely sealed and never opened.

So, now I will have to drop a line over to Bruk when I get time this weekend I suppose to see how long the line is to wait, which I can. I just wish I had more time last night and motivation since I was tuckered out from work to open everything up all the way. I just peeked in a bit to get even more excited before leaving the Jets/Colts game for bed.

Many happy dreams danced in my head last night, though I don't remember any of them. I guess they skipped the train or my dreams lost their train of thought.

Now, just need passenger cars to go with it. I think my local guy Tony may have some, just have to ask when I pop in again.

Sleeping giant waiting to be awoken.

@PRRronbh posted:

I guess the NYC management didn't have "control" over the P^LE when the P&LE management did not go along into the PC (PennCentral merger!

Ron

I don't know what that has to do with the A2a Berkshires or the NYC/P&LE business model of the 1940's and 1950's when these locomotives were conceived, purchased, in service, and scrapped.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Did someone say NYC Classics? Well, after about or over 6 years of insane searching and lots of bad luck(I guess), I finally have caught my big fish as it were. Finally, 28084, Lionel's New York Central J3a Dreyfuss Hudson is mine. While at York, I was aware that it was on the TCA Buy/Sell site. York proved to either be hiding or just my luck to miss this engine if it was there.

So, I popped a line to the seller Rich and asked him if he still had it, I think it was late Thursday evening of York. Friday morning I saw he answered and everything proceeded from there. Maybe I paid a bit more than what should be going price, but this was still completely sealed and never opened.

So, now I will have to drop a line over to Bruk when I get time this weekend I suppose to see how long the line is to wait, which I can. I just wish I had more time last night and motivation since I was tuckered out from work to open everything up all the way. I just peeked in a bit to get even more excited before leaving the Jets/Colts game for bed.

Many happy dreams danced in my head last night, though I don't remember any of them. I guess they skipped the train or my dreams lost their train of thought.

Now, just need passenger cars to go with it. I think my local guy Tony may have some, just have to ask when I pop in again.

Sleeping giant waiting to be awoken.

BTW, Bruk returned my Dreyfuss Hudsons packed exactly like your photo. Looked brand new and undisturbed. Had to put them on the track to see if they were now Legacy! He does great work.

Great find, Skip. Can’t wait for the unveiling.

Great find Dave, ….I know one of them has been on your radar for a minute!..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Great find Dave, ….I know one of them has been on your radar for a minute!..

Pat

Yeah, I know when I got out of the hobby all the lawsuit engines were just being conceived. Almost sound like I had something to do with it, lol. I know when I returned to the hobby and found out they made one just after I left, I was like, "Aw man." Now the dream is real.

I also looked for the Lionel Dreyfuss Hudson for a few years when I was fortunate to pick one up from Grzyboski’s a couple of years ago... one of these days, I’ll have to look for a matching set of passenger cars.

Is this particular Dreyfuss 'special' or 'unique'?  Hasn't Lionel and MTH both made several models since the early 2000's?

@c.sam posted:

Is this particular Dreyfuss 'special' or 'unique'?  Hasn't Lionel and MTH both made several models since the early 2000's?

Could be a few reasons Sam. Lionel, of course uses the more popular TMCC vs MTH DCS. Another for a  NYC fan, Lionel’s model is of the second run that NYC ordered with Scullin Disks and Roller bearing rods while all of MTH’s are models of NYC first order that came with Boxpok Drivers and plain bearing rods. Both well detailed and fine runners.

Pete

@c.sam posted:

Is this particular Dreyfuss 'special' or 'unique'?  Hasn't Lionel and MTH both made several models since the early 2000's?

Sam;

I can’t speak to MTH production (I’m strictly Lionel when it comes to engines) but to the best of my knowledge, Lionel has only done 2 Dreyfuss Hudsons - the Smithsonian version from the early 90’s which still commands big bucks, and the 28084. To me, it is special, but I’m not sure if everyone would agree with me As an NYC fan, it was high on my personal must have list.

@Norton posted:

Could be a few reasons Sam. Lionel, of course uses the more popular TMCC vs MTH DCS. Another for a  NYC fan, Lionel’s model is of the second run that NYC ordered with Scullin Disks and Roller bearing rods while all of MTH’s are models of NYC first order that came with Boxpok Drivers and plain bearing rods. Both well detailed and fine runners.

Pete

MTH did one run of the later Dreyfuss with Scullin discs, roller rod bearings, and PT tender,….they don’t show up for sale often, and when they do, they disappear fast,…..kind of a rare bird,….

Pat

@c.sam posted:

Is this particular Dreyfuss 'special' or 'unique'?  Hasn't Lionel and MTH both made several models since the early 2000's?

Also to add to what Pete mentioned, the Lionel 28084 Dreyfuss, is in the same family as Lionel’s J3’s 28072, & 38041 ( the latter being from the anniversary set) to some of us, as far as production goes, these are some of the most robust well built Hudsons to come out of the Far East,…Lionel’s Korean production around the time that this Dreyfuss was made was absolutely top notch,…..albeit the early Oddesy can be notchy, with simple add ons, such as a Cruise M and fan smoke, they can be beasts,….did I mention factory Pittman powered,…always a plus!!..

Pat

@Artie-DL&W posted:

Great find, Skip. Can’t wait for the unveiling.

Actually he did, back over on page 9. Have a look Artie.

Skip's 28084 Lionel Dreyfuss Hudson Upgraded by Bruk back on page 9

I completely forgot that the video was there. Sad thing is, I watched it, but I guess my brain wasn't home during the video. Great camera angle too.

@c.sam posted:

Is this particular Dreyfuss 'special' or 'unique'?  Hasn't Lionel and MTH both made several models since the early 2000's?

As Pete and Pat have mentioned, this is probably one of the best Lionel model's made. Best Hudson, that I can't answer but of the 3 mentioned, I guess it would come down to personal preference. As Pat stated, the overall winner is the Pittman motor. The stuff that came out with these motors installed, could pull anything you threw at it(so I've heard, lol).

Thanks, Dave, my bad. They’re beautiful locomotives.

No problem Artie, there are tons of things missed even if you follow a topic from beginning to end. I know I have missed a few things that have been right under my nose.

One question about the New York Central I have is the addition of "Lines" on some of the tenders. Was this a certain period or for short lines or such?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

One question about the New York Central I have is the addition of "Lines" on some of the tenders. Was this a certain period or for short lines or such?

“New York Central Lines” was on the tenders of the subsidiary roads that the Central proper controlled, such as the Lake Shore, the Michigan Central, P&LE, and the Big Four engines,….not long after the system wide renumbering (1936) the Central began also changing the font on locomotives from Railroad Roman, to Railroad Gothic, ( around 1940) when the font change happened, the “Lines” was dropped in favor of “ Systems” …..thus, “ New York Central Systems” ….all of this change over didn’t happen overnight. As the locomotives were shopped for major repairs, or overhaul time, that’s when they’d get new lettering,…..

Pat  

@harmonyards posted:

“New York Central Lines” was on the tenders of the subsidiary roads that the Central proper controlled, such as the Lake Shore, the Michigan Central, P&LE, and the Big Four engines,….not long after the system wide renumbering (1936) the Central began also changing the font on locomotives from Railroad Roman, to Railroad Gothic, ( around 1940) when the font change happened, the “Lines” was dropped in favor of “ Systems” …..thus, “ New York Central Systems” ….all of this change over didn’t happen overnight. As the locomotives were shopped for major repairs, or overhaul time, that’s when they’d get new lettering,…..

Pat  

I remember some discussions on this, but couldn't recall the whole conversation. I do remember that someone had said that the Legacy Ten Wheeler #827 shouldn't have "Lines" on it, Lionel made an error. What exactly, I don't know. I believe Skip had said something about that on the conversation about it though.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I remember some discussions on this, but couldn't recall the whole conversation. I do remember that someone had said that the Legacy Ten Wheeler #827 shouldn't have "Lines" on it, Lionel made an error. What exactly, I don't know. I believe Skip had said something about that on the conversation about it though.

Well, F-12 ten wheeler # 827 as delivered from Alco Schenectady was a NYCHR RR engine from the get go,….more than LIKELY she remained an eastern division locomotive, so in fact, she would have worn the “ New York Central “ lettering as she was part of the Central proper…..many F12’s and all of the F12 sub classes, were assigned to commuter duties, and many made the trip from Harmon to points northwards, ( or west by timetable)  most notably, a lot of them shot up the Put Put ( as grandad called the Putnam division )  ……GCT’s major revenue was still commuter traffic, so at Harmon, commuter trains were switched out for F12’s or MU consists were simply pulled by F12’s where the electrified lines ended, and steam power was needed to continue the journey,……as most of y’all NYC enthusiasts know, a commuter would come in from the city, either pulled by an electric, or self propelled electric cars, ten wheelers would be on the ready tracks at Harmon, after being quick serviced at the Harmon engine facility after making the return trip south into Harmon, they would then back down the reversing loop at Harmon, and couple onto a Northbound commuter,…..they never ventured south of Harmon, as that entire district was electrified,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Well, F-12 ten wheeler # 827 as delivered from Alco Schenectady was a NYCHR RR engine from the get go,….more than LIKELY she remained an eastern division locomotive, so in fact, she would have worn the “ New York Central “ lettering as she was part of the Central proper…..many F12’s and all of the F12 sub classes, were assigned to commuter duties, and many made the trip from Harmon to points northwards, ( or west by timetable)  most notably, a lot of them shot up the Put Put ( as grandad called the Putnam division )  ……GCT’s major revenue was still commuter traffic, so at Harmon, commuter trains were switched out for F12’s or MU consists were simply pulled by F12’s where the electrified lines ended, and steam power was needed to continue the journey,……as most of y’all NYC enthusiasts know, a commuter would come in from the city, either pulled by an electric, or self propelled electric cars, ten wheelers would be on the ready tracks at Harmon, after being quick serviced at the Harmon engine facility after making the return trip south into Harmon, they would then back down the reversing loop at Harmon, and couple onto a Northbound commuter,…..they never ventured south of Harmon, as that entire district was electrified,….

Pat

I believe #827, later renumbered #1240, was used on the Putnam Division pulling short commuter trains between Sedgwick Ave in the Bronx and Brewster in Putnam County. It was also used to pull freight on the Put.

This photo is a Gray Oaks on the Putnam Division. This is 827 after dropping a cut of freight cars, which will be picked up by an 0-8-0.

No.827 pulling a freight at Put Junction. The short C class tender was characteristic of Putnam Division Ten Wheelers. The tenders that originally were built for these ten wheelers were too heavy for the weight restrictions on the Putnam bridges and they were too long for the small Put turntables.

Yorktown Heights on the Putnam Division.

827 with a commuter train on the Putnam Division.

Yorktown Heights turntable.

The word "LINES" did not belong on the tender of 827.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I remember some discussions on this, but couldn't recall the whole conversation. I do remember that someone had said that the Legacy Ten Wheeler #827 shouldn't have "Lines" on it, Lionel made an error. What exactly, I don't know. I believe Skip had said something about that on the conversation about it though.

Yes we did have that conversation. Lionel had put out a similar ten wheeler in 2002 with a high mounted headlight and #1916. This was a Boston & Albany ten wheeler and correctly had "NEW YORK CENTRAL LINES" and a small "B&A" on the tender.

When Lionel catalogued #827, known to be used on the Putnam Division, they correctly eliminated the word "LINES" and the "B&A."

But when produced they only removed the small "B&A" and left the word "LINES."

Skip, wonderful pics. I don't see no "Lines" on the tender, which like I said above I believe you had indicated in one of the topics somewhere that it was wrong when it was produced by Lionel. I do know that mine I have to get the smoke unit fixed as I think GRJ had said that that release of Ten Wheelers had some issues with the smoke units burning out quickly or some such thing.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Skip, wonderful pics. I don't see no "Lines" on the tender, which like I said above I believe you had indicated in one of the topics somewhere that it was wrong when it was produced by Lionel. I do know that mine I have to get the smoke unit fixed as I think GRJ had said that that release of Ten Wheelers had some issues with the smoke units burning out quickly or some such thing.

I coupled 827 up to a smaller tender with correct lettering. It looks kind of "Puttish" don't you think?

Yes it does Skip.

Front End Friday!!!

Indeed it is Skip,…😉

Pat

Lately, I have been trying to put together a NYC Mail Train. From info and pictures I’ve found online, I am using my VisionLine Niagara, two pairs of NYC baggage cars, and an RPO I just picked up the other day. Can any of the very knowledgeable NYC fans here point me to a good source of info on mail trains (make up, equipment, motive power, etc.)??? I have seen photos which suggest that mail trains may have included one or more passenger cars... I’ve searched the NYC Historical Society’s archive, and most of what I’ve found are photos, many of which concern one particular RPO car. And leads would be greatly appreciated.