NYC Classics

@NYC Fan posted:

Beautiful looking locomotive Pat!!!

I have a question maybe you can answer. Since the Commodore Vanderbilt was shrouded in 1934, did they install classification lights on it for running on the mainline? I've never seen a photo of it with class lights. I've seen the similarly shrouded Mercury Pacific with class lights and was wondering about the Commodore.

Skip

Skip, although the shrouding process began the spring or summer of 34, the commodore Vanderbilt did not have its debut run until February of 35,….that’s right about the time the Central proper was standardizing ATC ( automatic train control) ….big name trains and higher profile trains would’ve been first to receive this advancement, thus negating the need for class lights,….obviously first up to bat, the big dogs, the limiteds, in all sections, and the CV, which followed the same route,….The Mercury, which ran Cleveland/Detroit would’ve lost class lights later than the “ main line” trains,…..just like upgrading street signs, super highways first, then smaller roads next,…..some branches of the Central proper never were fully standardized during the steam era,., so some locomotives assigned to those routes kept class lights to the bitter end,……most notably, a lot of big four engines kept class lights,….basically, it was prioritized by traffic demands,……

Pat

@NYC Fan posted:

I really hope Lionel makes use of the MTH tooling and makes a Legacy version of this locomotive.

Skip,

Has it been confirmed that Lionel got the A-2a mold? I haven't heard anything to that extent.

If yes, my wallet will be mad with me, I might have to get one. If no, I wouldn't be surprised if Atlas picked it up since they appear to be getting back into the O-gauge market.

Bryce

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

Skip,

Has it been confirmed that Lionel got the A-2a mold? I haven't heard anything to that extent.

If yes, my wallet will be mad with me, I might have to get one. If no, I wouldn't be surprised if Atlas picked it up since they appear to be getting back into the O-gauge market.

Bryce

Dave ( DaveNYCHudsonPRRK4)  point blank asked Ryan at York about that locomotive and got crickets ….so did I ,…..crickets ……so nothing concrete ……it remains a pipe dream at the moment…..

Pat

That usually means it's already in the works!

@harmonyards posted:

Dave ( DaveNYCHudsonPRRK4)  point blank asked Ryan at York about that locomotive and got crickets ….so did I ,…..crickets ……so nothing concrete ……it remains a pipe dream at the moment…..

Pat

Yeah, he really couldn't say anything. This could go either way, betting on a big no as far as I'm concerned. As many have said before, believe it when I see it. Instead, we're going to get I think he said A1's like a prior B&A offering from I don't know when. That is all I know, when, I don't have any idea. You'd have to look in the catalog history to get some idea of how far in between. I would suspect not this coming year, maybe the following for any type of Berk's.

It's funny, how Lionel couldn't use the tooling from the 2000 versions of the N&W A steamer and had to come up with new tooling due to the MTH lawsuit of so long ago.  Now there's a chance Lionel purchased MTH premier steam engine tooling.  The fact that everyone is silent on who now owns the tooling is telling.  Not proof but telling. 

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Lionel has at least some of the tooling.

@superwarp1 posted:

It's funny, how Lionel couldn't use the tooling from the 2000 versions of the N&W A steamer and had to come up with new tooling due to the MTH lawsuit of so long ago.  Now there's a chance Lionel purchased MTH premier steam engine tooling.  The fact that everyone is silent on who now owns the tooling is telling.  Not proof but telling.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Lionel has at least some of the tooling.

For sure they do Gary, but they may either be keeping things under wrap, or there could be a contractual obligation for a grace period, or maybe even not quite in their hands. Any of these things could be going on, and maybe more that we don't know yet. Hopefully we will get that A2, and others.

@NYC Fan posted:

Beautiful looking locomotive Pat!!!

I have a question maybe you can answer. Since the Commodore Vanderbilt was shrouded in 1934, did they install classification lights on it for running on the mainline? I've never seen a photo of it with class lights. I've seen the similarly shrouded Mercury Pacific with class lights and was wondering about the Commodore.

Skip

Skip,

There's a watermark in this image in the lower right-hand corner.  When I zoom in on it I can't make out its details because of the limited resolution of this embedded version of the photo.

I'd like to find contact info for artist who colorized it.  Can you provide a name from the watermark, or a web link perhaps?

Thanks in advance.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Skip,

There's a watermark in this image in the lower right-hand corner.  When I zoom in on it I can't make out its details because of the limited resolution of this embedded version of the photo.

I'd like to find contact info for artist who colorized it.  Can you provide a name from the watermark, or a web link perhaps?

Thanks in advance.

Mike

Hi, Mike!

It says "Colorized by Imbued with Hues"...

Thanks!

- Mario

@CentralFan1976 posted:

Hi, Mike!

It says "Colorized by Imbued with Hues"...

Thanks!

- Mario

Perfect.  Thanks!

Mike

@superwarp1 posted:

It's funny, how Lionel couldn't use the tooling from the 2000 versions of the N&W A steamer and had to come up with new tooling due to the MTH lawsuit of so long ago.  Now there's a chance Lionel purchased MTH premier steam engine tooling.  The fact that everyone is silent on who now owns the tooling is telling.  Not proof but telling.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Lionel has at least some of the tooling.

That lawsuit definitely put Lionel in a unique situation, they still can't make the tmcc Dreyfuss Hudson in legacy for that reason. Hopefully they will come up with a new mold for that loco.

If I were a betting man, I would say Atlas got most of the Premier steam it since their O scale steam is practically non-existent. Lionel might have picked up a few pieces, but as to what they are? That is anyone's guess..

Bryce

I am not aware than anyone has acquired Premier Steam. Some Railking maybe.

Lot of wishful thinking here. Maybe it will happen. Good luck to you who are hoping it does.

Pete

I am curious!  Why do "New York Central Fans" all of sudden have an interest in the P&LE A2a's that were NOT and never were NYC engines???  Yes NYC management "forced" the P&LE management to order 10 of these A2a's that were "designed' for PL&E's needs of of heavy tonnage drag engines with max speed of 50 mph when they wanted diesel at the same time the NYC was going over to diesel.   The seven A2a's that the P&LE did get (cancelling the other three) never "RAN" on NYC rails until the NYC leased, I will say that again LEASED them from the P&LE in late summer 1955 for their Southern District.  These P&LE A2a's sat one P&LE storage tracks since mid-summer 1953 with no PM and one of these Berks died within a month

These P&LE A2a's worked their way under load fromALCO's Schenectady, NY plant Delaware & Hudson and Erie freight trains to Youngstown, Ohio.  The Erie made delivery at interchange near the Himrod Tower.  The A2a's were serviced for a working trip to P&LE's McKee Rock, Pa permanent base..  So never "RAN" NYC rails until the NYC leased them from the P&LE owners.  Unless you want to count the time turning the A2a"s at Youngstown before the longer turntable was built.  For that period the A2a's were cut off and stored at the engine terminal until at least three were ready.  They were then put together as a single train for turning through the Eire RR wye at Himrod TowerThen taken over the NYC's Ashtabula-Youngstown Main Lines the third leg the wyeback to the P&LE.

So again why the NYC Fan interest in the P&LE A2a engines that were never a NYC engine?

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

I am curious!  Why do "New York Central Fans" all of sudden have an interest in the P&LE A2a's that were NOT and never were NYC engines???  Yes NYC management "forced" the P&LE management to order 10 of these A2a's that were "designed' for PL&E's needs of of heavy tonnage drag engines with max speed of 50 mph when they wanted diesel at the same time the NYC was going over to diesel.   The seven A2a's that the P&LE did get (cancelling the other three) never "RAN" on NYC rails until the NYC leased, I will say that again LEASED them from the P&LE in late summer 1955 for their Southern District.  These P&LE A2a's sat one P&LE storage tracks since mid-summer 1953 with no PM and one of these Berks died within a month

These P&LE A2a's worked their way under load fromALCO's Schenectady, NY plant Delaware & Hudson and Erie freight trains to Youngstown, Ohio.  The Erie made delivery at interchange near the Himrod Tower.  The A2a's were serviced for a working trip to P&LE's McKee Rock, Pa permanent base..  So never "RAN" NYC rails until the NYC leased them from the P&LE owners.  Unless you want to count the time turning the A2a"s at Youngstown before the longer turntable was built.  For that period the A2a's were cut off and stored at the engine terminal until at least three were ready.  They were then put together as a single train for turning through the Eire RR wye at Himrod TowerThen taken over the NYC's Ashtabula-Youngstown Main Lines the third leg the wyeback to the P&LE.

So again why the NYC Fan interest in the P&LE A2a engines that were never a NYC engine?

Ron

Ron,

Are you referring to all "New York Central Fans", or just the ones who've posted on this thread?

Mike

@PRRronbh posted:

I am curious!  Why do "New York Central Fans" all of sudden have an interest in the P&LE A2a's that were NOT and never were NYC engines???  Yes NYC management "forced" the P&LE management to order 10 of these A2a's that were "designed' for PL&E's needs of of heavy tonnage drag engines with max speed of 50 mph when they wanted diesel at the same time the NYC was going over to diesel.   The seven A2a's that the P&LE did get (cancelling the other three) never "RAN" on NYC rails until the NYC leased, I will say that again LEASED them from the P&LE in late summer 1955 for their Southern District.  These P&LE A2a's sat one P&LE storage tracks since mid-summer 1953 with no PM and one of these Berks died within a month

These P&LE A2a's worked their way under load fromALCO's Schenectady, NY plant Delaware & Hudson and Erie freight trains to Youngstown, Ohio.  The Erie made delivery at interchange near the Himrod Tower.  The A2a's were serviced for a working trip to P&LE's McKee Rock, Pa permanent base..  So never "RAN" NYC rails until the NYC leased them from the P&LE owners.  Unless you want to count the time turning the A2a"s at Youngstown before the longer turntable was built.  For that period the A2a's were cut off and stored at the engine terminal until at least three were ready.  They were then put together as a single train for turning through the Eire RR wye at Himrod TowerThen taken over the NYC's Ashtabula-Youngstown Main Lines the third leg the wyeback to the P&LE.

So again why the NYC Fan interest in the P&LE A2a engines that were never a NYC engine?

Ron

I can understand your love affair with the P&LE, ….BUT it was a red headed step child of the Central proper,….so until the time the P&LE could get away from the Central in the doom days leading up to that nasty merger, …the P&LE was a “told” railroad,….they were told what to do by the Central proper,….hence the big “New York Central Systems” herald on the side of the tenders,……and only tiny P&LE markings on the bunker tops,……the phrase “who’s your daddy?” comes into play here,….fortunately for the P&LE, they had enough revenue traffic to stem off the doomed mergers, and stand on their own two feet when the mergers failed miserably,…..they were even owed bunches of money by the Central, and managed to collect it, I believe,,…

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Ron,

Are you referring to all "New York Central Fans", or just the ones who've posted on this thread?

Mike

No Mike only the one yhat all of sudden noticed the P&LE's A2a's!

Ron

@harmonyards posted:

I can understand your love affair with the P&LE, ….BUT it was a red headed step child of the Central proper,….so until the time the P&LE could get away from the Central in the doom days leading up to that nasty merger, …the P&LE was a “told” railroad,….they were told what to do by the Central proper,….hence the big “New York Central Systems” herald on the side of the tenders,……and only tiny P&LE markings on the bunker tops,……the phrase “who’s your daddy?” comes into play here,….fortunately for the P&LE, they had enough revenue traffic to stem off the doomed mergers, and stand on their own two feet when the mergers failed miserably,…..they were even owed bunches of money by the Central, and managed to collect it, I believe,,…

Pat

Then the B&A locos are NYC and the Michigan Central locos are NYC etc. etc.!  The NYC's acquisition of P&LE stock was only motivated by their desire to get into PRR territory and Pittsburgh not as a holder of the P&LE.

Now my hometown Youngstown back in the day was served by FIVE class 1 Roads   The Pennsy, NYC, B&O, Erie and P&LE.  They are all roads of my interest.  But as stated the A2a's did not even ride home on NYC rails.

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

Then the B&A locos are NYC and the Michigan Central locos are NYC etc. etc.!  The NYC's acquisition of P&LE stock was only motivated by their desire to get into PRR territory and Pittsburgh not as a holder of the P&LE.

Now my hometown Youngstown back in the day was served by FIVE class 1 Roads   The Pennsy, NYC, B&O, Erie and P&LE.  They are all roads of my interest.  But as stated the A2a's did not even ride home on NYC rails.

Ron

But as stated the A2a's did not even ride home on NYC rails.

true, ….but what’s that got to do with the Central profiting from wherever they roamed,….the Central subsidized roads for one reason,…….to turn a profit off of every mile ……wouldn’t have mattered if it roamed on N&W rails,….the flag is flown, the Central reaped the profits….

Pat

@PRRronbh posted:

I am curious!  Why do "New York Central Fans" all of sudden have an interest in the P&LE A2a's that were NOT and never were NYC engines???  Yes NYC management "forced" the P&LE management to order 10 of these A2a's that were "designed' for PL&E's needs of of heavy tonnage drag engines with max speed of 50 mph when they wanted diesel at the same time the NYC was going over to diesel.   The seven A2a's that the P&LE did get (cancelling the other three) never "RAN" on NYC rails until the NYC leased, I will say that again LEASED them from the P&LE in late summer 1955 for their Southern District.  These P&LE A2a's sat one P&LE storage tracks since mid-summer 1953 with no PM and one of these Berks died within a month

These P&LE A2a's worked their way under load fromALCO's Schenectady, NY plant Delaware & Hudson and Erie freight trains to Youngstown, Ohio.  The Erie made delivery at interchange near the Himrod Tower.  The A2a's were serviced for a working trip to P&LE's McKee Rock, Pa permanent base..  So never "RAN" NYC rails until the NYC leased them from the P&LE owners.  Unless you want to count the time turning the A2a"s at Youngstown before the longer turntable was built.  For that period the A2a's were cut off and stored at the engine terminal until at least three were ready.  They were then put together as a single train for turning through the Eire RR wye at Himrod TowerThen taken over the NYC's Ashtabula-Youngstown Main Lines the third leg the wyeback to the P&LE.

So again why the NYC Fan interest in the P&LE A2a engines that were never a NYC engine?

Ron

If you're referring to me personally, my interest in the P&LE started when I was around 12 years old in the 1960's when the owner of my hometown hobby shop asked if I was interested in a set of post cards with paintings of the P&LE done by Howard Fogg. He knew I liked the New York Central. I bought the postcards. The painting that I liked the best was the A2a Berkshire.

Several years later around 1980 I bought a set of prints of those same P&LE paintings at the Strasburg RR Book Store. I had this print framed.

I knew little of any negative history involved until many years later. I just knew that I liked the look of the locomotive and it said New York Central on the tender. I lobbied for Lionel and MTH to make a model of the A2a and MTH came through. I bought the locomotive before I even had a layout with track radius wide enough to run it.

If I need any more rhyme or reason to like a locomotive, I'm guilty! I don't. And, since I now have a layout that can accommodate an A2a, and since I can't get the DCS system to work on my layout, I would really like a Legacy version of this locomotive.

I can think of nothing more interesting to pull a coal drag on my layout than an A2a Berkshire.

Hope that answers your question. My interest is anything but sudden.

@PRRronbh posted:

I am curious!  Why do "New York Central Fans" all of sudden have an interest in the P&LE A2a's that were NOT and never were NYC engines???  Yes NYC management "forced" the P&LE management to order 10 of these A2a's that were "designed' for PL&E's needs of of heavy tonnage drag engines with max speed of 50 mph when they wanted diesel at the same time the NYC was going over to diesel.   The seven A2a's that the P&LE did get (cancelling the other three) never "RAN" on NYC rails until the NYC leased, I will say that again LEASED them from the P&LE in late summer 1955 for their Southern District.  These P&LE A2a's sat one P&LE storage tracks since mid-summer 1953 with no PM and one of these Berks died within a month

These P&LE A2a's worked their way under load fromALCO's Schenectady, NY plant Delaware & Hudson and Erie freight trains to Youngstown, Ohio.  The Erie made delivery at interchange near the Himrod Tower.  The A2a's were serviced for a working trip to P&LE's McKee Rock, Pa permanent base..  So never "RAN" NYC rails until the NYC leased them from the P&LE owners.  Unless you want to count the time turning the A2a"s at Youngstown before the longer turntable was built.  For that period the A2a's were cut off and stored at the engine terminal until at least three were ready.  They were then put together as a single train for turning through the Eire RR wye at Himrod TowerThen taken over the NYC's Ashtabula-Youngstown Main Lines the third leg the wyeback to the P&LE.

So again why the NYC Fan interest in the P&LE A2a engines that were never a NYC engine?

Ron

@NYC Fan posted:

If you're referring to me personally, my interest in the P&LE started when I was around 12 years old in the 1960's when the owner of my hometown hobby shop asked if I was interested in a set of post cards with paintings of the P&LE done by Howard Fogg. He knew I liked the New York Central. I bought the postcards. The painting that I liked the best was the A2a Berkshire.

Several years later around 1980 I bought a set of prints of those same P&LE paintings at the Strasburg RR Book Store. I had this print framed.

I knew little of any negative history involved until many years later. I just knew that I liked the look of the locomotive and it said New York Central on the tender. I lobbied for Lionel and MTH to make a model of the A2a and MTH came through. I bought the locomotive before I even had a layout with track radius wide enough to run it.

If I need any more rhyme or reason to like a locomotive, I'm guilty! I don't. And, since I now have a layout that can accommodate an A2a, and since I can't get the DCS system to work on my layout, I would really like a Legacy version of this locomotive.

I can think of nothing more interesting to pull a coal drag on my layout than an A2a Berkshire.

Hope that answers your question. My interest is anything but sudden.

Ron, I think that you may be over thinking why anyone likes an engine. You may say all of a sudden, but that may not be the case for everyone as Skip has stated. One's particular interest in any engine, regardless of where it ran is up to them. I know Hot Water has stated that the A2's were not really great runners, which doesn't matter in the model railroading world. If someone wishes to argue with him on how well they ran, they'd be running a fool's errand.

One of the most interesting railroad stories I have ever heard about was the Denver and Rio Grande(I believe) versus the Santa Fe. The D&RG was a tiny railroad, and the Santa Fe was the giant. Scouts were trying to find the best way through, and the D&RG was surveying the route. Well, the Santa Fe also was doing so, and built track where the D&RG was going to go. So, what happened was the D&RG built into a narrow area which was the only place to go. The Santa Fe was TO'd and couldn't get through.

Instead, they siezed the D&RG property, engines and everything else conceivable. Bat Masterson was involved with the Santa Fe, but from what was shown on the program I watched, he didn't do anything in bad faith, he was basically just there to be there, no shooting or such. What wound up happening is that the courts sided with the D&RG and told the Santa Fe to give back all they took(and maybe some more, been a bit).

Why this story you may ask? Because sometimes we model railroads that are essentially land locked by other railroads, or we just like to make it up as we go along. I do hope I got the historical information above correct as I am going from memory from a show I watched over 6 years or more ago.

As for me, the A2 Berkshire has a pretty face, lol. When I first saw this engine a few years back(the MTH Model of course), I liked the color and look of it. There are a bunch of engines that catch me like that, sure that there are some that may catch you like that too. Sure it is of par from my OGR handle, but why should I stick to just Hudson's and K4's anyway? Hope that helps.

@NYC Fan posted:

If you're referring to me personally, my interest in the P&LE started when I was around 12 years old in the 1960's when the owner of my hometown hobby shop asked if I was interested in a set of post cards with paintings of the P&LE done by Howard Fogg. He knew I liked the New York Central. I bought the postcards. The painting that I liked the best was the A2a Berkshire.

Several years later around 1980 I bought a set of prints of those same P&LE paintings at the Strasburg RR Book Store. I had this print framed.

I knew little of any negative history involved until many years later. I just knew that I liked the look of the locomotive and it said New York Central on the tender. I lobbied for Lionel and MTH to make a model of the A2a and MTH came through. I bought the locomotive before I even had a layout with track radius wide enough to run it.

If I need any more rhyme or reason to like a locomotive, I'm guilty! I don't. And, since I now have a layout that can accommodate an A2a, and since I can't get the DCS system to work on my layout, I would really like a Legacy version of this locomotive.

I can think of nothing more interesting to pull a coal drag on my layout than an A2a Berkshire.

Hope that answers your question. My interest is anything but sudden.

Hey Skip,

  They seem to have a unique smokebox (front) that looks a bit chunky. I like the look. What can we say...To each, their own...beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc. Hey, I like the look of Pennsy's B6 fleet. So why do we like what we do?

Viva la difference/enjoy.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Tom

I think that is called a “Selkirk” smoke box. JohnA

I think that is called a “Selkirk” smoke box. JohnA

@NYC Fan posted:

Beautiful looking locomotive Pat!!!

I have a question maybe you can answer. Since the Commodore Vanderbilt was shrouded in 1934, did they install classification lights on it for running on the mainline? I've never seen a photo of it with class lights. I've seen the similarly shrouded Mercury Pacific with class lights and was wondering about the Commodore.

Skip

Skip, do you know where this picture was taken?  I’m wondering if this was taken after the engine was reassigned to the James Whitcomb Riley?  On The Big Four it sported classification lights from some of the books I have seen.  Great photo - thanks for sharing.

@rjsmithindy posted:

Skip, do you know where this picture was taken?  I’m wondering if this was taken after the engine was reassigned to the James Whitcomb Riley?  On The Big Four it sported classification lights from some of the books I have seen.  Great photo - thanks for sharing.

Rob,

I think you may be correct. I think this photo was the James Whitcomb Riley at Kankakee. I believe the photo was colorized incorrectly because the I'm pretty sure the trim and herald on the Riley was red.

@NYC Fan posted:

If you're referring to me personally, my interest in the P&LE started when I was around 12 years old in the 1960's when the owner of my hometown hobby shop asked if I was interested in a set of post cards with paintings of the P&LE done by Howard Fogg. He knew I liked the New York Central. I bought the postcards. The painting that I liked the best was the A2a Berkshire.

Several years later around 1980 I bought a set of prints of those same P&LE paintings at the Strasburg RR Book Store. I had this print framed.

I knew little of any negative history involved until many years later. I just knew that I liked the look of the locomotive and it said New York Central on the tender. I lobbied for Lionel and MTH to make a model of the A2a and MTH came through. I bought the locomotive before I even had a layout with track radius wide enough to run it.

If I need any more rhyme or reason to like a locomotive, I'm guilty! I don't. And, since I now have a layout that can accommodate an A2a, and since I can't get the DCS system to work on my layout, I would really like a Legacy version of this locomotive.

I can think of nothing more interesting to pull a coal drag on my layout than an A2a Berkshire.

Hope that answers your question. My interest is anything but sudden.

Hi Skip, no not referring to you.  I know you have a MTH P&LE A2a Berk but do recall the first time I saw you post it, you called it a NYC engine instead of P&LE.

I was referring to all the sudden interest in a "NYC" Berk with hopes that Lionel got MTH's tooling for it.  This put me in mind of the times took the A2a to the local toy train shop to run on the layout we built there.  NYC fans would foam at their mouth saying "never knew NYC had a Berk.  Then would say why is it an Army Olive drab paint?!  Finally point out it is actually a P&LE A2a  New York System Berk and only seven were ever built.

Now growing up with five class 1 roads (Pennsy, NYC, B&O, Erie. and the P&LE ["The Little Giant"] have a small fleet of NYC.  Have a Jie Hudson, Dryfuss Hudson, S-1 Niagara, latest addition a 4-6-6T tank engine (came from the B&A, RS-3, U25B.  Also have a MTH ALCO PA-1 set round number 4204 which actually was a P&LE passenger engine.

Living at the western terminus point of the P&LE I recall seeing the A2a on the Eastside as a lad in the early 50's.

Like you have picked up book of Fogg post cards (don't know were they are at right now) plus this 64 8-1/2X11 pages by Howard Fogg  mostly P&LE the steel mill(many Youngstown) and a few NYC engines.

And a friend knowing I was from Youngstown and a P&LE fan gave me this.

An A2a on a bridge with a steel making furnace in background.  The P&LE slogan "Serves the Steel Centers."

Ron

Oh, our Number 9401 A2a has a special red and with nose number board because it was use to pull a special passenger train of P&LE exes.

@PRRronbh posted:

Hi Skip, no not referring to you.  I know you have a MTH P&LE A2a Berk but do recall the first time I saw you post it, you called it a NYC engine instead of P&LE.

I was referring to all the sudden interest in a "NYC" Berk with hopes that Lionel got MTH's tooling for it.  

Ron,

Personally, my interest is that it is a P&LE Berk and MTH, to my knowledge, only did one run. They are getting expensive on the second-hand market.

So when Skip said:

@NYC Fan posted:

I really hope Lionel makes use of the MTH tooling and makes a Legacy version of this locomotive.

I got very confused/excited since I thought I missed a major announcement that I could own a steam engine I always liked but with all the added Legacy goodies.
Above confusion aside, it would be interesting to see who got MTH's Hudsons...

Bryce

@NYC Fan posted:

Rob,

I think you may be correct. I think this photo was the James Whitcomb Riley at Kankakee. I believe the photo was colorized incorrectly because the I'm pretty sure the trim and herald on the Riley was red.

I browsed a few pics yesterday of the Mercury. All had no class lights in the pictures. I do know when was dated 1936, but no idea where it was taken as I didn't read that far. Got really busy last night when I should have been winding down. See what tonight brings.

@NYC Fan posted:

Rob,

I think you may be correct. I think this photo was the James Whitcomb Riley at Kankakee. I believe the photo was colorized incorrectly because the I'm pretty sure the trim and herald on the Riley was red.

Fellas, remember, there were a few Mercury train sets, the Riley was a separate train set, but used equipment identical to the Mercurys…The central may have swapped around locomotives, as they often did, ….The Riley on its inaugural run in 1941 was considered part of the Mercury family,….so the pic may depict an actual Riley train set, not necessarily a re-assigned locomotive,…..and if indeed this was a “Big Four” roaming locomotive, class lights would have been needed …….clear as mud!…right??…..the Central is a strange beast,….interesting to learn, ….I’m still learning new things…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Fellas, remember, there were a few Mercury train sets, the Riley was a separate train set, but used equipment identical to the Mercurys…The central may have swapped around locomotives, as they often did, ….The Riley on its inaugural run in 1941 was considered part of the Mercury family,….so the pic may depict an actual Riley train set, not necessarily a re-assigned locomotive,…..and if indeed this was a “Big Four” roaming locomotive, class lights would have been needed …….clear as mud!…right??…..the Central is a strange beast,….interesting to learn, ….I’m still learning new things…..

Pat

Well, I punched in the search James Whitcomb Riley train, and several pictures popped up in the results. First one was a B&W of the one above. All other photos also have that(or similar engine) with class lights. The pics that came up yesterday was under a Mercury train search, which none had class lights. Does this mean that beast is solved, or most likely solved?

@harmonyards posted:

Fellas, remember, there were a few Mercury train sets, the Riley was a separate train set, but used equipment identical to the Mercurys…The central may have swapped around locomotives, as they often did, ….The Riley on its inaugural run in 1941 was considered part of the Mercury family,….so the pic may depict an actual Riley train set, not necessarily a re-assigned locomotive,…..and if indeed this was a “Big Four” roaming locomotive, class lights would have been needed …….clear as mud!…right??…..the Central is a strange beast,….interesting to learn, ….I’m still learning new things…..

Pat

Pat, to add to the thread, I pulled out my book, “New York Central’s Mercury” (Richard J. Cook Sr., TLC Publishing 1991).

There is a section devoted to the Riley, and one photo in particular notes ‘ex-Mercury locomotives 4915 and 4917’ in Indianpolis, both with class lights.

Great thread everyone!  For what it’s worth, I too hope to see the A2a re-released at some point.

@rjsmithindy posted:

Pat, to add to the thread, I pulled out my book, “New York Central’s Mercury” (Richard J. Cook Sr., TLC Publishing 1991).

There is a section devoted to the Riley, and one photo in particular notes ‘ex-Mercury locomotives 4915 and 4917’ in Indianpolis, both with class lights.

Great thread everyone!  For what it’s worth, I too hope to see the A2a re-released at some point.

Good find, which adds fuel to the fire that I had mentioned about the Central always playing musical locomotives,…….probably as Hudsons became more available for Mercury service, the Pacifics were bumped down to Riley, ( which was a lessor train than the Mercurys) and that route being a little less traveled than the  lake shore routes, meant the Rileys wore class lights,……the Riley was an coach day train,….no??….I’m not near my books at the moment,..

Pat

The Mercurys were extended into Chicago, from Detroit, through Indianapolis,….yes??….

Pat

Pat, the book includes an advertisement for the Riley noting “New De-Luxe All Coach Streamliner”.  The time table notes the Northbound train leaving Cincinnati at 8:15 am and arriving at Chicago Central Station at 12:30 pm EST.  Southbound left Chicago at 4:40 pm and arrived at Cincinnati at 10:55 pm.

Probably more information than anyone wanted, but since I had the book handy…

@harmonyards posted:

The Mercurys were extended into Chicago, from Detroit, through Indianapolis,….yes??….

Pat

Pat,

Here's what I've found after a quick search:

"The first Mercury, operating on a daily roundtrip between Cleveland and Detroit, was introduced on July 15, 1936. The Chicago Mercury, between Chicago and Detroit, and the Cincinnati Mercury, between Cincinnati and Detroit, followed. The Mercury's lasted until the 1950s, with the final survivor, the original Cleveland Mercury, making its last run on July 11, 1959.

A fourth train, the James Whitcomb Riley between Chicago and Cincinnati, used the same design for its train sets and is considered part of the Mercury family, although it did not bear the Mercury name. The Riley debuted in 1941 and lasted into the Amtrak era, though no longer a streamliner."

From an odd place, but looks correct in spite of it:

    New York Central Mercury Faded Glory | Mohawk Design

Mike

All this Mercury talk makes me wonder. I know 3rd Rail had done one, but from what I had heard it had some issues with it. Did MTH ever do one? The question I'm asking is any Mercury train. I do know that diesels had taken over service for steam, the train name like most I think stuck.

It would be interesting to see any consist whether it be steam or diesel made. I know that the NYC Pacific streamliners aren't as popular as the Pennsy's(waiting for an eruption), but it would be very interesting to see if these would be made. I do believe that if Lionel were to do the Mercury, they would have to do the Pennsy's, and some of the other road names for the streamlined Pacific's, like the Milwaukee Road or um, was it Lehigh? I forget, someone will educate me again.

If Lionel did one it would or should be a new casting for them. While it may resemble those from other roads, no self respecting NYC fan would accept it as a Mercury.

3rd Rails was one of their poorer offerings. First it was diecast, second it has no rear bulkhead, looks like a Post War 221, third the side and mainrods are made of Kraft cheese slices, apologies to Kraft as their cheese is stiffer. It runs OK with the rods straightened. The cars are unique and correct though again not well made with razor thin wire, windows and diaphrams that fall off if you breath on them. Again would require new tooling if someone else were to offer these cars.

Pete

@Norton posted:

3rd Rails was one of their poorer offerings. First it was diecast, second it has no rear bulkhead, looks like a Post War 221, third the side and mainrods are made of Kraft cheese slices, apologies to Kraft as their cheese is stiffer. It runs OK with the rods straightened. The cars are unique and correct though again not well made with razor thin wire, windows and diaphrams that fall off if you breath on them.

Pete

Hey Pete,

Thanks for raining so thoroughly on my parade.  I purchased both the locomotive and the cars brand new from 3rd rail, have had them ever since, and are quite happy with them, both in appearance and in operation.

On the other hand, in spite of my dedication to them I would agree if the general consensus is that they're 3rd Rail's worst effort ever.  Odd?

Mike

I have the set too. They can be made right but out of the box they could have been better. Early releases of most all GGD’s heavyweights were not the best constructed. I know many who sold theirs after tiring of having to make all the repairs.

Pete

I would expect that if Lionel did do a Mercury, that the possibility of a brass hybrid may be the best chance they would have of doing it right. I'm not sure for the K4 Torpedoes if that would be the same type of ideal situation, but what do I know. Either way there is a chance to do a better locomotive. Maybe we can get Pat to make one, lol.