Old steamer slows down over time

Walt,

If you let it cool off and then run it again, does it run OK and then slow down again?  This might be one of those 'process of elimination' puzzles.

swanko

Walt i bet your armature is going bad. I have a lionel U36C engine that would slow down when get hot.   

My guess: brushes need replacing. If you go this route, be certain to re-clean the commutator and brush holders. Be careful not to get any oil on them. You did not indicate what sort of 2-4-2 loco.
If the engine takes 622 style brushes, you might want to consider using brushes with pigtails. You would need to be careful about routing the pigtails so they don't short. Might not be so easy on a 2-4-2.

I had a Lionel General Mills era steam engine that came with the Broadway Limited set that did the exact same thing.  It wasn't PW, it was early 70's (SOS).  Within 20 minutes of run time it would stall at full power.  Never could figure it out and got rid of the set.  I remember the set cost $79, and just attributed it to cheap new fangled electronics!

Stack 

I should not have said PW.  DIdn't think of it until reading Stack's reply.  My parents got it for me somewhere around 1975 or 1976 Christmas.  The tender says WABASH.

I don't run it very much and haven't run it at all since I got DCS about 10 years ago.  I only have  a Christmas layout so it doesn't amass huge run times.  Maybe the armature is going bad but with such a small amount, comparitively speaking, that would surprise me.

Swanko: If I let it cool down it runs fine again.

C.W.: The brushes seemed plenty 'big' and non-worn.  I did clean the brush plate, the tubes that the brushes fit in, and the brushes themselves.  I'll admit - they were FILTHY! 

If it wasn't a gift from my now deceased parents I would just not even think about "losing it".  But I'm trying to preserve it for an obvious reason.

thanks - walt

I'm thinking either the armature or field or both are going bad.

If it's the type with a two position e-unit then it has 2 sets of windings on the field.

One winding for forward and the other for revese. As those types of motors heat, the magnetic field weakens more on some - especially if not wound properly. They have less magnetism available to begin with due to less field windings in use at any one time.  

quote:

C.W.: The brushes seemed plenty 'big' and non-worn.  I did clean the brush plate, the tubes that the brushes fit in, and the brushes themselves.  I'll admit - they were FILTHY! 

Its not the wear. If the brushes were filthy, they were probably oil soaked. In my experience, it is impossible to clean an oil soaked brush. I have had to redo other repairman's work because they cleaned the customers brushes instead of replacing them.
When you clean an oil soaked brush, it usually will work well for a little while, and then foul.

I have a jar full of old brushes. If anybody has a good way to clean them, I have plenty that could be used again.
These brushes came from freebee repairs (including my own stuff). When I do a fee based repair, the old parts go back to the owner with the train.

Folks you might also want to see this thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...rse-mpc-1970s-steam-

These may be two symptoms of the same problem.  I know the 8506 switcher catalogued from 1975 to '77 had a single-wound field.  I have one of those but I don't recall whether it exhibited the symptoms described here.  I also have a postwar 249 with the double-wound field.  It always ran great and can pull five K-line passenger cars for 45 minutes without overheating, so I would blame it on changes made by MPC when they redesigned the 4-wheel chassis in 1970.

A shame too, because the MPC armature is both larger and has more laminations than it's postwar equivalent.  FYI, FWIW.

Yes, it is a 2-position.  I took a picture of it but forgot to bring my camera to the library.

Also, look at my reply coming up to C.W.'s post

thanks - walt

C.W.: thanks.  Yeah, that might have been the case with mine - they were really dirty.  So was the shaft that holds them.

I was going to come back today and reply with a 'GOOD NEWS' posting, until I read your 'little while' comment.

I took everything apart last night and re-cleaned the commutator plate, etc.  But this time I used Goo-Gone instead of just 90% alcohol.  I then cleaned off the Goo-Gone too.  When I went in the 2nd time as an experiment I tried the alcohol first and got nothing on my rag.  Using Goo Gone, I got it black!!! 

It ran great last night for all 57 minutes that I ran it.  But your 'little while' comment has me guessing how much longer.  Will be interesting to see.

thanks - walt

Walt, I'm glad you brought this topic up, and grateful for the replies, too.  Many of my postwar engines slow down after 15 to 20 minutes.  Not necessarily to a dead stop, but enough that the voltage does need to be increased.

"Old steamer slows down over time"

Hey Walt; me too!

Rod

I use CRC electrical contact cleaner to clean the armature and brush tubes, along with a .22 caliber brass bore brush to clean the brush tubes. You need to get ALL the black gunk off the tube walls.

Rob

I picked up the.22 caliber bore brush tip here, I think it was from Oldrob (thanks!)

Having ruined two armatures by cleaning them with alcohol, I generally recommend against it. In these particular instances, the armatures started out ok, but dirty. After cleaning them using alcohol as a solvent, both were shorted.

I typically use mineral spirits, although I do have some other solvents around.

I have some interesting news for some of you guys.  If the field weakens, the motor runs faster.  This happens because the back EMF depends on the strength of the field, and when the field weakens, the speed has to increase so the back EMF can balance the input voltage.  

When the loco is hot, do the wheels still turn freely?  If they bind up when hot, you might need to lube the loco again.  Use ordinary motor oil.  Don't use grease, Lionel Lube, 3 in 1 oil, WD-40, light machine oil as these all harden or get gummy.

And don't worry about getting oil on the brushes and commutator.  If they are clean and the commutator  slots are clean, oil will reduce the brush friction. I have been doing this for 5 years with no problems.  It works well with motor oil, but I wouldn't try it with anything else.  

The only reference I've found to lubricating motor brushes is in Model Car Racing.

Modern brushes are self-lubricating.

Here is what the Motor Doctor, wrote about oil on the commutaor:

quote:

Too much lubrication is nearly as bad as not enough.   Too much lubricant  will saturate wiring, insulating material and attract dirt and dust.  All  of these will greatly shorten the life of your train's electrical components  and harm performance.   The greatest damage is usually done to the motor bearings, commutator and the  brushes.  Once oil finds its way to the commutator, the electrical  current passing between the brush and commutator will vaporize the lubricant  and glaze the brush surface.  This will increase the resistance between  the commutator and the brush.  This will result in higher voltages needed  to operate the train and greatly increase the arching between the brush and  commutator.  The end result is  a damaged commutator and brushes.  Always lubricate the train motor and gears with a quality oil such as 3 in  1 oil and use very little.  Do not use WD-40!

Here is a lengthy article on maintaining Lionel trains by Just Trains.

If you are still having problems after replacing or cleaning the brushes, replace the brush springs. The MPC version of the spring tends to weaken over the years, and when it gets hot from running, the tension weakens and not pressing the brush against the commutator enough, thus wasting power with heat. The spring gets hotter and the cycle continues.

 I can send you a pair if needed.

Chuck, that's an interesting comment, to me.  As I was giving the engine its second cleaning, I was thinking that the springs weren't very taut.  And one of them lost it's connection to that little tab on the top of the brush tube.  The spring was sort of laying sideways a bit.

I wouldn't mind getting a new pair.  Thank you.

I'll look at your profile and see if your email address is there and I'll shoot you my information via that route.  If you don't have it listed in your profile, mine is in mine so shoot me an email and I'll reply.  THANKS!

- walt

BTW: here's an image of the engine:

The train doctor is recommending 3 in 1 oil?  That is a clear indication he doesn't know anything about oils or lubrication for locos.  3 in 1 oil gets gummy very quickly, and I suspect that if you got it on the commutator, you would get the results he talks about.  However, motor oil and 3 in 1 oil are not the same.  Motor oil has a very low vapor pressure, and doesn't evaporate.  And motor oil can be put on a commutator without any adverse reactions.  I know.  I have done it for years.

Train Doctor also makes a comment about too much oil causing problems, and while admittedly it may cause some, I have seen much more damage done by lack of lubrication:  worn out bearings, etc.

OK, I found that Caig Labs does recommend using their L260 or M260 grease on commutators.

I do like Caig Lab stuff. I use several of their products, including a couple their contact cleaners and lubricants. I have revived several stereo amplifiers by using Caig product to quiet noisy pots.

My old repair person, now repairing on a much higher level told me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

replace springs, brushes, clean armature with pencil eraser, clean openings with wood toothpick, put drop of oil on bottom of armature shaft,reassemble,test for ground wire attached, run .  Throw away old brushes and springs,,,,,,,,,,,if still running slower  overhaul e'-unit, check pickups for binding..........He said use no oil on pickups, use graphite,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Now LIONEL says use oil,,,,,,, I've  never followed this advise.

Sometimes me thinks their advise  is not right on

Also  there are a lot of guys and gals who know more about this than me on here.

Rod

Oil works just fine on the pickup rollers, just like it does on the driver axle bearings. Remember, the electrons go through the driver axle bearings just like they go through the pickup roller bearings.  I always oil the pickup rollers with motor oil.  Just like I oil the commutator.  The electrons find their way through the oil film just fine.

Labelle for me. Watch the video on the webpage that is linked below. They mention motor oil and why it is not being recommended. I use Labelle 107, 108 oils and 106 grease. They are plastic compatible. Their oils are also recommended to enhance electrical conductivity.

http://www.con-cor.com/Labelle.html

The guy in the video is lying.  He claims that petroleum based lubricants dry out which is a bald faced lie.  Motor oil doesn't dry out.  When it is in an engine, the oil temperature is about 210 degrees F.  And the oil lasts for months.  In 1966 I lubed a 2025 steamer that I have.  Then I put it in a box in the closet and didn't take it out until about 5 years ago.  It did not need to be lubed!!  It ran just fine.  No sticky or gummy mess or dried out oil.  I have about 100 locos, and I will tell you for sure that I don't take time to lube them every year.  That would take hundreds of hours.  

You can use LaBelle stuff if you want to, but I don't buy stuff from liars.

Didn't the Labelle also recommend lubricating the commutator?

Regardless, I don't plan to start lubricating the commutator on engines I service. It just isn't necessary.
I think my comments about oil soaked brushes still apply. The oil that would have impregnated the brushes on older trains isn't likely to be from Caig, or current Labelle, or even motor oil.

As always, this post has really got some informative (even caustic?) comments and

one from which an open minded person can learn from....

but first, I have to take a short nap to digest all the above.!!

NROD's repairman mentioned using graphite.

I have some on hand, but I very rarely use it because I find that it can stain.

If someone has any tips on cleaning away graphite stains, I'd appreciate reading about it.

When I get a postwar engine it's usually the same story. Original owner in 1955 ran it until it slowed down. Maybe it was opened once and over oiled with 3in1 brand at the brush plate. Probably ran better until the oil ran down and gunked up the commutator, brushes, and brush holders. Then they put the engine away never to see the light of day again until now. I soak old oily brushes in 91% alcohol for a few hours as I work on other parts of the engine. For lubrication on axles and bearings I was using Labelle 107 but comparing over time to Mobil One 0W30 I have switched to the Mobil One. 3in1 has a solvent in it that does make it evaporate. I use 3in1 for cleaning only. 3in1 is great for removing light surface rust and leaving an invisible coat when dry that prevents the rust returning. I use either 3in1, WD40, or charcoal lighter fluid to clean commutators followed by a Q Tip wet with 91% alcohol. Then polish the commutator with an ink eraser to finish the job.