Pennsylvania Railroad Question

RF-16s were freight only. Over their life they wore Brunswick green sometimes with circled keystone and 5 stripes later green with buff single stripe.  Baldwin made a passenger shark, the BP-20. THEY WERE GREEN WITH 5 STRIPESAND POSSIBLY TUSCAN with 5 stripes.  Ended careers on NY&LB possibly pushers on horseshoe curve.

The BP20s wore both five-stripe and single stripe liveries in both DGLE and tuscan colors.

I believe that the RF-16's were the only 5-stripe freight diesels.  I'm from the west, but have seen Pennsy photos for over 70 years, and, when delivered, the RF-16 units did have 5 stripes, beginning with a Pennsy emblem in a circle  just behind the cab door and no striping on the nose.  They later were repainted with the single stripe that curved downward at the nose, like EMD and Alco freight units.

The class BP-20 passenger sharks started out with the same partial 5 stripe paint scheme, and later received the single stripe on tuscan red, with the stripe extending to the nose.

That's what I have seen in photos.

CORRECTION:  Thanks to CAP Pilot and pennsyfan, I see that the 5 stripes were later extended to the nose on freight and passenger Baldwin shark nose cab units, before the single stripe paint version was applied.  Thank you for pointing that out.

I guess that makes the Lionel Century Club PRR Sharks a fantasy paint scheme, here I though this was real.

5888.1278794744.jpg (1024×702) (railpictures.net)

Try this link

1136.1416113606.jpg (915×629) (railpictures.net)

here's another

As mentioned, the DR-4-4-1500 (BF-15) and later RF-16 (BF-16) were freight engines that were delivered with the 5-stripe passenger scheme.  As far as I can tell, they were the only ones.  I have a couple of books on the Pennsy's Sharks that talk about the engine's various paint schemes during its career, but none gave a reason why Pennsy painted them with the 5-stripe scheme.

The Passenger Shark, DR-6-4-20 (BP-20), was originally delivered with the stripes ending at the emblem.  This looked "wrong", and it wasn't long before they painted the stripes all the way to the nose.  I have not found a picture of the BF-15 with the short stripes.

Here are my 5-stripe engines with the BP-20 in front.

Pennsy naming scheme:

BF-15: Baldwin Freight 1,500 Hp

BF-16: Baldwin Freight 1,600 Hp

BP-20:  Baldwin Passenger 2,000 Hp

Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume Four - Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units shows some photographs of BF-15 #9670 and #9671 with the circled keystone and 5 side stripes, but no nose stripes.  The author (John D. Hahn, Jr.) states that, "Early production cab units were delivered without nose striping, which was subsequently applied by PRR shop personnel.

This should mean that at least #9568 through #9575 had no nose stripes as delivered, since they were delivered at the same time or earlier than #9670.

@Bob posted:  This should mean that at least #9568 through #9575 had no nose stripes as delivered, since they were delivered at the same time or earlier than #9670.

  Learn something new every day.

Well, they have nose stripes after all, my model is saved!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I guess that makes the Lionel Century Club PRR Sharks a fantasy paint scheme, here I though this was real.

It is real. Its a good model of the prototype!

Do a search: Raymond Loewy, an architect/engineer, Pennsy hired, to make their huge mechanical beasts, acceptable to the public.  The five strip was part of the transformation. IMO, Mike CT.  Weaver did the BP20, 20 plus years ago.  The smaller sharks would be more useful on todays small layouts.  The original Weaver offering was an A-B set. The A-B is over 40 inches. You could purchase an additional A.   Pennsy on the Long Island Railroad used them A-B-A.  Installed with TMCC electronics at the time, the two, (or three units) could be programmed as a consist. IMO mine look good setting on the shelf, takes a large layout, though I have beat mine, around my O54 layouts, with a lot of dents and scratches.   Weaver BP20's had the radiophone antenna. 

I have the A-B-A of Lionel Century Club PRR Sharks, they're a good looking set.  Both A-Units are powered.  The only issue I had is there's a persistent issue with them that a gear in the power truck splits, I had two of the four power trucks with split gears.  I managed to get replacements from Lionel to bring them back to life.  Oddly, it was a compatible gear from a different locomotive that I ended up getting for the repair.

I too have a set of the Century Club PRR Sharks. I have them programed using the same engine number for both engines so the horn and bell will sound on both engines. I also really like the stereo effect. They are real pullers too probably because they are the heaviest two engines I have ever carried around. I never run a single diesel engine so I usually carry around at least 3 SD70Ace engines or 2 SD60e engines but the two Sharks will out weighs either. I am strictly a club runner and do not have a home layout so I am very use to carrying my trains to and from the clubs I have belonged to. One of the more recent clubs was the DELMAR Model RR Club in Delaware which is on the second floor about 24 steps up and down. When using the PRR Sharks you really feel the weight on those steps. I wonder if the newer Legacy versions are just as heavy. Let me make it clear I am not complaining about their weight I rank the Sharks as one of my favorite engines.

JohnB

@Mike CT posted:

.....The smaller sharks would be more useful on todays small layouts.  The original Weaver offering was an A-B set. The A-B is over 40 inches. You could purchase an additional A.   ....

FYI for those with smaller layouts: The Pennsy's "freight" sharks, RF-16 and DR-4-4-1500, were never painted in Tuscan Red.  However, you can find the freight sharks from Lionel, K-Line, Williams, and maybe MTH, in Tuscan Red/5-stripe schemes.  If you have one of these they are good for simulating the much larger passenger sharks in their later paint scheme on layouts that do not have O-72 or larger curves needed for a full length pax shark.

@Mike CT posted:

Do a search: Raymond Loewy, an architect/engineer, Pennsy hired, to make their huge mechanical beasts, acceptable to the public.  The five strip was part of the transformation. IMO, Mike CT.  Weaver did the BP20, 20 plus years ago.  The smaller sharks would be more useful on todays small layouts.  The original Weaver offering was an A-B set. The A-B is over 40 inches. You could purchase an additional A.   Pennsy on the Long Island Railroad used them A-B-A.  Installed with TMCC electronics at the time, the two, (or three units) could be programmed as a consist. IMO mine look good setting on the shelf, takes a large layout, though I have beat mine, around my O54 layouts, with a lot of dents and scratches.   Weaver BP20's had the radiophone antenna.

No Baldwin sharks of any kind were used on the Long Island Rail Road. Also, no B units were used there either, hence there never were any A-B-A sets as well.

Stuart

@Mike CT posted:

Pennsy on the Long Island Railroad used them A-B-A.  

Were you perhaps thinking of the New York & Long Branch instead of the Long Island Rail Road?

@JohnB posted:

I wonder if the newer Legacy versions are just as heavy. Let me make it clear I am not complaining about their weight I rank the Sharks as one of my favorite engines.

The Century Club TMCC Shark powered A Unit weighs 5# 6oz, and the Legacy Shark powered A weighs 4# 4oz.  So the answer is no, the Century Club is considerably heavier.

@Number 90 posted:

Were you perhaps thinking of the New York & Long Branch instead of the Long Island Rail Road?

BP20's did rule the NY&LB from the spring of 1956 until 1964 when they were replaced by E7s.  An ABA set would be unlikely though as the relatively lightweight P70s were rarely longer than nine cars in length and often shorter outside of rush hour.  Typically, a single A unit would be sufficient, but AA and AB combinations were also frequent on the longer trains. 

While I'll never say never, RF16s probably didn't see much if any service on the NY&LB proper.  There were not a lot of freight customers on the line, and I believe the CNJ served all those customers south of Red Bank however that is an area I still need to research more.  PRR freight operations in NJ outside of the Jamesburg branch and mainline which were both electrified, consisted of mostly agricultural lines and lighter locomotives tended to operate there.  PRR H9s and H10s lasted late on these lines.  Those pesky diesel burning invaders were too valuable to waste on such low profit margin tracks! 

While I am not nearly as knowledgeable on LIRR operations, I believe the same philosophy came into play there.  Being predominantly a passenger road, freight trains were an afterthought and there were not lots of customers so motive power tended be lighter. 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The Century Club TMCC Shark powered A Unit weighs 5# 6oz, and the Legacy Shark powered A weighs 4# 4oz.  So the answer is no, the Century Club is considerably heavier.

GRJ,

   Then the next question why?

JohnB

I have no idea, and I'm not thinking of taking them both apart to find out.

As a young kid spending a fair amount of time at the "train station" in Providence with my grandfather (a 40 year NH vet), I have a clear memory of a tuscan colored Penn RR PA pulling into the station hauling NYNH& H passenger cars...not sure why Pennsy engine was in Providence headed to Boston, but I was amazed at the size of it and the different shape of the nose compared to the diesels we were accustomed to seeing in Providence.  That memory inspired me to add the Pennsy PA to the layout and park it at the "Charles Street Yard" in Providence...

I count "5" stripes on the PA below...

All PRR PAs had 5 stripes.  The PA was DGLE prior to 1952, started to be Tuscan Red after.  Each paint scheme had 5 stripes.  The PAs were relegated to freight duty late in life but still had the 5 stripes.

Scott, the OP, originally asked if the PRR RF-16 sharks pulled passenger cars.  They don’t have the water capacity for pax car steam heat, so I feel comfortable saying they never did. But I have already been corrected once in this topic so who knows.

What a wealth of information! Thanks everyone who contributed.

Scott Kelly

@CAPPilot posted:

All PRR PAs had 5 stripes.  The PA was DGLE prior to 1952, started to be Tuscan Red after.  Each paint scheme had 5 stripes.  The PAs were relegated to freight duty late in life but still had the 5 stripes.

Scott, the OP, originally asked if the PRR RF-16 sharks pulled passenger cars.  They don’t have the water capacity for pax car steam heat, so I feel comfortable saying they never did. But I have already been corrected once in this topic so who knows.

I hate to be the one to correct you Ron, but two PAs did get the single DGLE stripe.  All Alco PAs were regeared for dual service and assigned class AFP20 in 1953.  Most received Tuscan 5 stripe paint, however two units, 5557A & 5558A were painted in single stripe DGLE. 

Single Stripe PRR Alco PA

As for freight locomotives pulling PRR passenger trains, steam heat wasn't required during the warmer months.  I am also comfortable stating that the RF16 likely never pulled passenger trains as the gearing was too low.  However, I did see a photo of an L1s 2-8-2 pulling a summer shore train so it's always so hard to deal in absolutes in this hobby as you well know!

@GG1 4877 posted:

As for freight locomotives pulling PRR passenger trains, steam heat wasn't required during the warmer months.  I am also comfortable stating that the RF16 likely never pulled passenger trains as the gearing was too low.  However, I did see a photo of an L1s 2-8-2 pulling a summer shore train so it's always so hard to deal in absolutes in this hobby as you well know!

The Shark's pull passengers on my RR, apparently they're just confused about their role.

The largest freight locos the LIRR owned were H-6 and H-9/10 consolidations although they did lease some PRR mikes after the war. As mentioned about freight engines often would pull a passenger train when heat wasn't needed.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I hate to be the one to correct you Ron, but two PAs did get the single DGLE stripe.  All Alco PAs were regeared for dual service and assigned class AFP20 in 1953.  Most received Tuscan 5 stripe paint, however two units, 5557A & 5558A were painted in single stripe DGLE.

Single Stripe PRR Alco PA

As for freight locomotives pulling PRR passenger trains, steam heat wasn't required during the warmer months.  I am also comfortable stating that the RF16 likely never pulled passenger trains as the gearing was too low.  However, I did see a photo of an L1s 2-8-2 pulling a summer shore train so it's always so hard to deal in absolutes in this hobby as you well know!

@GG1 4877  Jonathan,  My limited library of paper books does not show any PA1 getting the single stripe.  While I have used Jerry Britton's The Pennsy Modeler in the past, I obviously need to use the site more.  Good info for us Pennsy modelers.

As far as the L1 in pax service, I had not seen them as the only engine on pax trains.  I know they were used as the lead helper on pax trains around Altoona, and I have a picture of a L1/K4 set leading a T1 up a hill.  I'll keep an eye out for a photo of one as the only engine on a pax train - will give me more options to use mine.

@CAPPilot posted:

@GG1 4877  Jonathan,  My limited library of paper books does not show any PA1 getting the single stripe.  While I have used Jerry Britton's The Pennsy Modeler in the past, I obviously need to use the site more.  Good info for us Pennsy modelers.

As far as the L1 in pax service, I had not seen them as the only engine on pax trains.  I know they were used as the lead helper on pax trains around Altoona, and I have a picture of a L1/K4 set leading a T1 up a hill.  I'll keep an eye out for a photo of one as the only engine on a pax train - will give me more options to use mine.

Ron - a great resource is "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, Volume Seven, EMD E Units and Alco PAs" by Paul Withers.  It has a roster shot of nearly every E unit and PA the PRR rostered and is a great modeling resource.  I'm not sure if it is in print anymore, but it's a pretty short paperback so used copies shouldn't be overly pricey.  The last few pages show these two PAs and indicates they were the last two in service.  Also, they were repainted into single stipe DGLE in 1958.  Also of note, 5758B and maybe other B units received the broad single stripe, shadow keystone scheme.  I haven't found photos of that though.