Postwar Quality

Generally they were of simpler and sturdier construction but Lionel made some turkeys too. Not all accessories were good working.  Plus there were a lot more  service  places than today with parts available.

While I really like the spirit of postwar, Lionel did have a vast service network for a reason… and no, it was not just because little kids broke the engines.

Jim actually points out the key features above that make a big difference.

Charlie

I believe the quality was there in the post war production.  Even in the trains produced in the last years of the original Lionel Corporation, up to 1969.  I'll go even further and say that the Fundimensions or MPC era did their best to produce a quality product.  

That said, quality can be defined differently in each of those three eras.

 I would venture to say that the highest quality trains were made between 1945 to 1959.  Robust motors, heavy materials, more detail, magne-traction, etc.

In the period starting in 1959, the trains became more toy like.  Cheaper materials started to be used.   Basically the designs were changed to make manufacturing simpler, which in turn made the trains more toylike.  

After the Lionel Corporation went belly up, the new owners continued with the less expensive line of trains.  Perhaps feeling their way in order to see if Lionel trains would even continue to exist.  Fortunately they must have been making a profit and started producing a more desirable line of products as the '70s wore on.  

Toward the end of the '80s, more bells and whistles, so to speak, began to appear in Lionel trains.  I recall some difficulties starting to show up with these more technically advanced trains in the early '90s.  

The products produced today have far more electronics than a post war loco could have ever dreamed possible.  If you've followed some of the topics on these forums, you may have noticed many complaints about some of these high tech trains.  That's not to say the trains are not superb models.  It's just that there's more to go wrong than in a 1950s locomotive.  

The test will be to see where todays trains are 60 or 70 years from now.  

Dan, I couldn't agree with you more.  I'm new to this hobby and have noticed the production quality differences between the PW, MPC and modern era models.  Having said that, I also agree that the more modern engines are jam packed with electronics which inherently causes more issues.  I took apart my PW 602 (out of curiosity) and did the same with my Lionel Legacy SD60e:  there are about 50 more parts in that modern legacy engine and most are electronic in nature (easier to break and wear out etc..). 

Contrary to popular belief, I do believe that the modern engines (Lionel, MTH and Atlas) are manufactured with very high quality standards (thanks to the entrance of MTH into the market).  The motors, gears, wheels and entire drivetrains are made with metal on these modern engines (well most anyway).  I really believe that in 50 years, my SD60e will still be running.  I highly doubt the electronics will work though. 

From the research I've done, it looks like the MPC era was a time of poor production standards.  I understand why Lionel went this route though.  If you think about it, starting in the 60's, HO scale starting gaining huge chunks of market share, kids started focusing on building plastic models of airplanes and rockets.  There was a tremendous amount of pressure on Lionel to cut costs to stay in business.  Then of course we start seeing plastic gears, shells and even motor components. 

Based on what I've been able to tinker with, I'm a huge fan of the PW models.  There's just something about holding those 60 year old locomotives, knowing my ancestors made them here in the US, then throwing them on the track and hearing them roar.  It's pretty dam cool.  I plan on buying one of each of the Lionel PW NW2 switchers eventually and restoring them as they're almost full scale in size and run really well. 

Just my 2 cents. 

Charlie posted:

While I really like the spirit of postwar, Lionel did have a vast service network for a reason… and no, it was not just because little kids broke the engines.

Jim actually points out the key features above that make a big difference.

Charlie

I had a small collection of LIONEL Service Station bulletins and correspondence from the early 1950s - and you could tell, it wasn't always the smoothest operation. The mothership seemed to change forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates frequently. And then scold the service station owners for not following to spec, or charging too much. And remember, these guys were obligated to fix all the other LIONEL toys, record players, and catalog items. It seems like it all fell apart eventually.

I had a small collection of LIONEL Service Station bulletins and correspondence from the early 1950s - and you could tell, it wasn't always the smoothest operation. The mothership seemed to change forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates frequently. And then scold the service station owners for not following to spec, or charging too much. And remember, these guys were obligated to fix all the other LIONEL toys, record players, and catalog items. It seems like it all fell apart eventually.

What does changing forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates have to do with quality?
They didn't get into record players and the like until the 1960's, when they purchased Spear (or was it Porter-Spear?)

IMHO, much of what Lionel made during the period in question (1945- 1959) was high quality and well designed. There were a few clunkers though.
They did a much better job of supporting their product with parts than Lionel is able to do today.

In general, as mentioned, postwar trains are much simpler in terms of design and technology, including the basics, such as the motor, E-unit, axles, wheels, etc.  That was due to the limitations of the manufacturing technology of the time, and the tolerances achievable with the equipment employed.  Today's models are less robust, more vulnerable to electrical/digital electronic failure because they are more complex.  Digital electronics are susceptible to a greater number of failure modes than electro-mechanical devices in some instances.  A voltage spike may fry a board but usually wouldn't do anything to an E-unit.

That said, it's pretty much apples and oranges.  Like trying to compare a car from the 1960s to one from 50 years later.  Carburators with all their limitations and issues are so very different from the much more capable and reliable fuel injection of the current models.  That said, you could repair a car from the 1950s with a few tools. Not so today.

 Nostalgia is nice and comforting, but having living through the 1950s as a child, mechanical and electrical devices (including toys) were much less capable and reliable back in the day.  If they worked, they were quite robust and lasted forever, but the ones that failed we don't have around now . Tolerances were much coarser and AC motors/E-units are more likely to need servicing and maintenance compared with similar items made today. 

C W Burfle posted:

I had a small collection of LIONEL Service Station bulletins and correspondence from the early 1950s - and you could tell, it wasn't always the smoothest operation. The mothership seemed to change forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates frequently. And then scold the service station owners for not following to spec, or charging too much. And remember, these guys were obligated to fix all the other LIONEL toys, record players, and catalog items. It seems like it all fell apart eventually.

What does changing forms, minimum orders, and remuneration rates have to do with quality?
They didn't get into record players and the like until the 1960's, when they purchased Spear (or was it Porter-Spear?)

IMHO, much of what Lionel made during the period in question (1945- 1959) was high quality and well designed. There were a few clunkers though.
They did a much better job of supporting their product with parts than Lionel is able to do today.

I was replying to another poster who implicated that need for the service station was an indictment of the quality of the product. I just added a bit of insight about Service Stations that might not be broadly known. I did not mean to imply LIONEL never made anything of quality.

And - I would contend that the extra overhead associated with the warranty repairs/service/parts ate into the company's bottom line - and contributed to the overall decline in quality. Fewer things to break (like nose handgrabs on F3s) and simpler manufacturing meant fewer repairs and warranty claims. I guess I would consider moves like using colored plastic - vs a painted body to reflective of diminishing quality.

Also - around this time LIONEL went into HO - which further complicated things since some shops didn't really want support HO. I think that was over by 1962.

Take a look at the 1962 Catalog - by that time they are FULL BORE into "not trains" toys. "Inventor Series" of toys, Communications Labs, Chemistry Kits, Microscopes, Record Players, Tape Recorders, Selectrix was happening by then...at least half the 1962 Catalog is NOT TRAINS!

They were trying to exploit a the train market with other products...this lead them deeper into the "trains are toys" mentality that ended the company.

I agree with most of what's been said, only I would argue that the Post War Era's long fall from grace began not in 1959, but rather 1954.  I trace it back to the era of swapping out die-cast frames for stamped sheet-metal on the NW-2's and FA-1's. 

Jon

I’m a PW/conventional guy so absolutely love the relative simplicity, durability, and charm of Lionel post war items. However, I will concede that comparisons with modern day stuff can be a bit of apples and oranges. That discussion can lead down all sorts of crowded roads.

What I do know - and thoroughly get a kick out of - is acquiring a loco that might be 60 years old, sticking it on the track, firing up the ZW and watching it run smoothly like it just came out of the box. I did just that a few weeks ago with a PW NW-2 switcher that came out of a garage sale.

A much different experience – apparently – than what we often hear about here with these $1,500 + products.

Page 188 in the Osterhoffs "Fun Factory" book lays it out pretty well...regarding 1961-69

"One lot of 40,000 motors produced defective..."

"Over 90 percent of incoming shipments defective..."

Faster and cheaper didn't work...

And - I would contend that the extra overhead associated with the warranty repairs/service/parts ate into the company's bottom line - and contributed to the overall decline in quality. Fewer things to break (like nose handgrabs on F3s) and simpler manufacturing meant fewer repairs and warranty claims. I guess I would consider moves like using colored plastic - vs a painted body to reflective of diminishing quality.

I have seen / heard very little about how much warrantee work service stations actually had to do. According to the people I've spoken with, the service station network was largely there as a marketing tool. Lionel used it to be able to boast about having a vast network of places to have your trains repaired if they ever need service. Service station owners benefited by drawing people into the store.  Some Customers would bring their train in for a tune-up, and walk out with a few new items.

As for hand grabs and colored plastic: I guess they might have saved a little money on warrantee work. They probably saved more by eliminating the labor/materials  required to mold and apply them in the first place. 

Also - around this time LIONEL went into HO - which further complicated things since some shops didn't really want support HO. I think that was over by 1962.

Take a look at the 1962 Catalog - by that time they are FULL BORE into "not trains" toys. "Inventor Series" of toys, Communications Labs, Chemistry Kits, Microscopes, Record Players, Tape Recorders, Selectrix was happening by then...at least half the 1962 Catalog is NOT TRAINS!

The thread was focused on the 1945-1959 period.

I am familiar with Lionel product of the 1960's. No disagreement on their 1960's stuff.  I find the 1960's to be an interesting period to collect, but I wouldn't buy most of it to run.

I think I can comfortably say that Lionel continuously found ways to make their trains less expensively, which usually meant diminished quality (if you count things like grabs) right from the beginning of the postwar era.
In my opinion, some of the engineering changes that MPC made right from the beginning was an improvement over some 1960's product.

Just a point of clarification regarding Lionel in the MPC era, which did exhibit quality problems. Lionel was a brand, not a company, from 1970 to 1986. Lionel was part of a division (MPC/Fundimensions) of General Mills.

So Lionel didn't have to worry about "going out of business" in the company sense. Instead, the brand had to live up to profit expectations under a publicly traded conglomerate. To boost those profits, cost-cutting measures were routine.

This is  my take on things, if you take a train from the 1950s and a modern train of today and in 100 years you put them both on the track do you think they're both going to run? The modern electronics of today I feel, won't stand up to the simplicity of the 50s. It's the same with cars, or typewriters. In the year 2050, a 1950 Chevy will mostlikley still be able to run fine ( if you can find the parts and sans rust) but a 2005 Chevy with all its electronics will Probley give you more problems 100 years down the road. The quality of the basic car will be close like our trains, but the tech is what's going to give you problems.  Typewriters, in 300 years if you could find a ribbon you know that it's going to type. Now try that with your computer/laptop in 300 years. Lol...Just my take.

Some of these comparisons are just ridiculous.

C W Burfle posted:

The thread was focused on the 1945-1959 period.

You may want to re-read the original post...

"Were the postwar trains by Lionel from 1946 to say 1959 high quality out of the box or was I just lucky ?  I know they went downhill in the sixties."

johnstrains posted:

I’m a PW/conventional guy so absolutely love the relative simplicity, durability, and charm of Lionel post war items. However, I will concede that comparisons with modern day stuff can be a bit of apples and oranges. That discussion can lead down all sorts of crowded roads.

What I do know - and thoroughly get a kick out of - is acquiring a loco that might be 60 years old, sticking it on the track, firing up the ZW and watching it run smoothly like it just came out of the box. I did just that a few weeks ago with a PW NW-2 switcher that came out of a garage sale.

A much different experience – apparently – than what we often hear about here with these $1,500 + products.

I agree with John on the nostalgia of a old postwar running with little or no effort.Have a lot of postwar items and very satisfied with them.

Sorry now to get of the original post and sorry, if you do not like it do not read it.
I partially like prewar as I usually buy stuff that is really worn and repainted badly.
I like to bring them back to life in their full glory and just to think about the child that may of got the trains for Christmas as a present 80 to 100 years ago is worth it to me.
I really do not have any new Lionel engines or train with all of the latest bells or whistles (newest item I have is a k-line 3003 engine (came without tender) and using a Lionel unmarked 1-6655 rail sound tenders with 6 wheel trucks (Made in 1993).
With the newer stuff I see complaints on the forum about different software/hardware versions and problems that the folks encounter (almost like looking at reviews before you buy something).  Problems could be the product or pilot error, who knows.
Unfortunately I can not afford the latest and greatest trains and will not bash them as I do not have any. But when I see them running they look great and sound great and maybe someday.

C W Burfle posted:

In my opinion, some of the engineering changes that MPC made right from the beginning was an improvement over some 1960's product.

That I can totally agree with.

When I first started getting into this - I had the impression that MPC had dumbed down the trains and product line.

Its really not the case.

It was MPC who brought back the dual motor F3, grab irons and sets/products more geared toward adult hobbyists.

But I think MPC only serviced/supported products made under their stewardship...I dont think they supported the old LIONEL products - as far as parts etc.

I am a Postwar only collector.  I love the fact that the trains of that era were built well enough to still be operational, and can be rebuilt/refurbished and restored, by those of us that are not master craftsmen.  While I marvel at the quality of what was a child's toy of that era, I find I have to temper my expectations of some of the accessories, since I sometimes think they are going to work flawlessly or similar to a modern counterpart.