PW 2020

the 1946 version should have the same motor as a 1946 671, i know they changed the motor angle and went to single axle drive in 1947, the 681 came along when magnatraction was added, i was always told the 2020 is identical to 671/681 except for the number and tender.

This will give you some info.:

http://www.postwarlionel.com

Ralph

According to the Tandem-Associates website on this particular locomotive, there were six variations:

Directly from their website:

Variation A: Directional Unit and whistle in tender are connected by jacks to the motor that was labeled "ATOMIC MOTOR" in the locomotive. A double worm drive provides the power to the drive axles. In the front of the locomotive is a RED Keystone that hasGOLD lettering, and is rubber-stamped "6200". This number is often found missing due wear and handling. On the sides, this version is equipped with shinny nickel rims on the drive wheels. Came with a No. 2020W tender that has WHITE rubber-stamped "LIONEL LINES" lettering on the sides and has grab railings on the sides and the deck. 1946 production. Some tenders are found with the rubber-stamped number on the bottom and these were probably produced in 1947 or 1948.

Variation B: Identical to Variation A, but came with No. 2466WX tender, and it has a BLACK Keystone on the front withWHITE number "6200" heat-stamped. (1946)

Variation C: Has an on-board directional unit whose lever protrudes though the top of the boiler and a single worm drive motor that is labeled "LIONEL PRECISION MOTOR" that no longer has the jacks. The Keystone is a RED numbered "6200" decal on the front of the locomotive, and the No. 2020W tender has a whistle that has a plastic housing, and came with all of the railings that were on the previous issues. (1947)

Variation D: Similar to Variation C, but with blackened steel rims on the drive wheels and came No. 2020W or No. 6020W tender. (1948)

Variation E: Similar to Variation D, but without steel rims on the drivers. (1948)

Variation F: Identical to Variation A, except the motor brush plate is made out of Bakelite and is RED in color. Manufactured in late 1946 and early 1947, these brush plates are also found on the No. 726 Berkshire’s and No. 2332 GG-1’s.

Bruce: According to the Lionel service manuals, the 1947 through 1949 models of the 671 and 2020 used the brush plate with the extended brush holder “tubes” (Lionel part #671M-5).  The last year of 2020 production was 1949 but the bakelite brush plate used on the turbines was not introduced until 1950 on the 681 as Lionel part #681-105. 

Correction to the Tandem Post-war Identification Guide copied directly by John above: Like its 671 counterpart, the 2020 Variation with no rims on any drivers (variation E) came out in 1949.  They do have the year correct on their 671 listings.

But I’m not sure that either Tandem or that Post-war Library website referenced earlier above have captured all of the Post-war turbine variations which had been documented in articles written by knowledgeable collectors in several club publications back in the 1970’s.  How ironic that there are so many Lionel variations given that there was only one single prototype! 

HTH,

Bill  

So its possible that what I saw could be a legit variation and not someone substituting a later part or motor?

Bruce:

I would bet it’s not legit if it has the same brush plate as a 681. The info from the service manual in my first posting above says that a 2020, last made in 1949, can’t have a brush plate with a 681 part number not introduced until 1950.

Perhaps it’s a 2020 cab on a 1952 non-magnetraction 671RR chassis?  A photo would really help?

Not even considering engine/tender variations, there are probably more non-legit than legit post-war turbines in the secondary market because as you know many parts are interchangeable and some sellers just don’t know or don’t CARE about maintaining originality.  I see this even at York!    

Bill

Bill

I'll have to go back sometime and check that out further just for the heck of it and if I can find out anything 

quote:

So its possible that what I saw could be a legit variation and not someone substituting a later part or motor?

I have had a lot of turbines pass through my hands, and have not seen a 2020 or a 671 (not the RR version) with anything other than a coil spring brush plate.

For what it's worth, one of the Greenberg guides lists a 726 (non RR) Berkshire with a 681 style brush plate. I've been looking for years, and have not seen one yet. I think the book is probably in error.

there are a couple of 671's on the bay that look like they have the 681 brush plate but I'll bet they may be 681 chassis with a 671 body on them? They don't appear to be RR's.

quote:

there are a couple of 671's on the bay that look like they have the 681 brush plate but I'll bet they may be 681 chassis with a 671 body on them? They don't appear to be RR's.

Links?

They are allowed as long as the poster is not hawking his own product, and not making fun of some else.
Even this late 671 has a coil spring brushpate: listing

CW

i'm not computer savvy and don't know how to do links.  One of them has #ET in the listing selling for $110 and the other just says lionel 671 going for 69.95.  Both look like they have the 681 brush plate in the pictures. The later has a picture of the box and the original # is blacked out and 671 stamped on the top making me think that something was done at a dealer or service station years ago?  For the heck of it I may contact one of the dealers and ask if the units have magnatraction.

Bruce:

You could just post the eBay item numbers for those 2 auctions and we could find them using those numbers.  That's the long 12-digit number that is shown after the description to the bottom right.

Bill 

Is this one of them?

If so, that is not an original brush plate. It is not even a 681 style brush plate.

It is a 622 style brushplate because it has an armature bearing and an oil wick.
The brush plate armature bearing is not used on a turbine motor. Turbine motor bearing are both below the armature head.
As far as the box being remarked: Its doubtful that the box was remarked in the factory. While the factory did occasionally black out information on a box and re-stamp it, they usuallt did a much neater job.

Is this the other one?

Hard to tell.

I think I may see the magnetraction plate in the first picture (making it a 681 chassis). Not certain.

As you are probably aware, the bodies on the 671, 2020, 681 and 682 (if you remove the linkage) will fit on each other's chassis, as long as there is an e-unit slot when needed. You can even put a body with an e-unit slot on a 1946 turbine chassis. It will fit.

If the motor has the 681 style brushplate with a 2020 body, you have one of two options.  Absolute FACT is the bodies of the 1947 to 1952 671, 681, & 2020 all share the same shell part #671-3 which is underneath each and every one of those.  The stamping is all that changed.  If it is suspected that it is a 2020 stamped body on the 681 frame check it to see if it has magnatraction.  Magnatraction came in the 681/682 chassis, and not in the 671/2020's.  The 1947 to later slant motors are interchangable with the 671/681/682/2020.  The brush plates can also be swapped, from one to the other, and using appropriate brushes.  You will have to check the frame, for magnatraction, and if it has it, someone put a 2020 body on a 681 frame.  If you suspect it may even be a 671rr frame, look near front set of wheels and see if the magnet is missing, where you can see through the frame from one side to the other. 

That particular loco may fall under the category of the proverbial "MUTT", as taken from an older post.

So it is possible that the 2020 could be "legit" with brush plate just swapped.  To confuse matters more, I dug out my issue of the other mag where an article on the turbine and said "1949 The motor brushplate changed.  Lionel began using the same brushplate along the line and the old brush tubes were eliminated."  So MAYBE this could be from 1949? Or am I reading too much into all this?

quote:

 To confuse matters more, I dug out my issue of the other mag where an article on the turbine and said "1949 The motor brushplate changed.  Lionel began using the same brushplate along the line and the old brush tubes were eliminated."  So MAYBE this could be from 1949? Or am I reading too much into all this?

As I poster earlier, one of the Greenberg books made that claim about Berkshires, probably about turbines too, I'd have to check. the "other magazine" probably got their information from Greenberg, or the original TCA article that Greenberg reprinted with permission.

I linked a late 671 turbine above.
Another poster pointed out that the new brushplate carries a 681 number, which was not offered until 1950. 

IMHO, it is doubtful that the article is correct, or that the turbine has its original brush plate. (Just because it's in print doesn't mean it is so)
Why not wait for one with the tube style brush plate?

If everything checks out, with the only issue being the brush plate, it can be swapped.  I have three 2020's and one 671, and one of them had the 681-100 style motor with a brush plate of that type.  I purchased the 671M-5 brush plate, and swapped it, so that it looked correct, and no ill effects on motor running.  All four of my turbines run just fine, without any issues.

Bruce:

The info I posted earlier came from the relevant Lionel service manual parts listing pages.  The pages identified for “NO. 671 & 2020 LOCOMOTIVES (1947-49 MODELS)” list only one brushplate: part #671M-5.  A picture on another page shows it with the “tubes”.  

What makes it more convincing IMO is that this page was UPDATED IN 1960 and DOES include one 681 part number!  It is part #681-4, an updated collector assembly for the original 671-105 collector assembly.  So if there would have been an updated brushplate intended for use on that locomotive group (1947-49 models of the 671 & 2020), such as the 681-5 introduced in 1950, or one with a different part number, wouldn’t it also be listed on that page which was updated in 1960?   

I believe the service manual as these pages were updated long after all post-war turbines went out of production.  I agree with CW that the article in that other magazine is wrong.  I have every issue of that magazine and would like to read that article myself so could you please let us know in which issue it appeared?

As CW posted earlier, the 622 brushplate will fit in the 671/2020 but it is different.  BTW, it came out in 1949.  So it’s likely a previous owner or maybe even your LHS, has replaced the original brushplate (plus the brushes and brush springs) on that 2020 they have for sale.  The rest of that 2020 could be 100% legit. 

I can scan those service manual pages and post them if you would like.

Bill 

Thanks Bill, CW, TeleDoc and everyone else, I've learned a lot and know what to look for in the future if any other turbines catch my eye.  

Bruce