Railroad Pocket Watches

This is a dangerous thread (at least, potentially, to my wallet! ) as I find myself wanting a Hamilton 992, and am currently trying to save up a few bucks to purchase one.

Anyhow, while tying to find a little bit more information on the parts of a pocket watch, I stumbled across this link that has an on-line version of a 1931 Popular Mechanics with a article titled "New Triumps in Agd-old Quest for Perfect Timepiece." It has a neat cut away diagram of a pocket watch.

http://books.google.com/books?...U#v=onepage&q&f=true

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by jd-train:
This is a dangerous thread (at least, potentially, to my wallet! ) as I find myself wanting a Hamilton 992, and am currently trying to save up a few bucks to purchase one.

It's a dangerous road! I started out just wanting one, and in a little over two years, "one" has turned over 100! Not all of those hundred are RR approved, and in fact I have a fairly sizeable collection of early American watches.

Incidentally, just this morning I bought a first for me, a Hamilton 992E. I've sort of wanted one for a while, although it hasn't been a top priority of mine. The ones at a price I wanted to pay tended to either be beat up or messed around with. One popped up on Ebay this morning that looked all straight for a price that worked for me. I'll post it when it arrives.

As promised, here's my 992E.

The 992E is readily identified by the wide-stripe damaskeen(although there are examples of narrow-stripe 992Es). It's also identifiable by the word "Elinvar" on the pallet bridge.

A 992E will have a solid monometallic balance wheel and a blue-dyed hairspring. The hairsprings in these were Swiss made, and were not very good-hence Hamilton developing their own in-house Elinvar Extra hairpring.

Even with the known problems of Elinvar, 992Es are still very desirable today.

Ben,

Nice addition with the 992E.

Funny thing is that although I've been watching eBay pretty heavily for the last couple of weeks in search of a Hamilton 992, I saw a 1923/24 Bunn Special (21J) with a Bunn Special case. I fell for the watch and made a bid, which I ended up winning!

Can't wait for my new (to me) watch to arrive.

Jim

I find this thread very interesting, Thanks!
I was wondering how people that work on watch movements learn there trade?
Do you learn from a jeweler or is there a school?
When I look at the movements I have no sense of how it works.

Thanks, franktrain

I was suprised that while drinking my coffee this morning, the doorbell rang. It was the Postwoman delivering a package. Inside was my first (?) pocket watch. I was suprised as I wasn't really expecting the watch until early next week.

As I noted in my earlier post, its a Illinois Bunn Special, similiar (except for the dial) to one that Ben posted on page 4.

Here's a few pics:







The next thing to figure out, will be if it will need cleaning and regulated.

Jim

Jim,

Nice watch! I'm a big fan of that particular dial-I do actually have a Bunn Special(not shown on here) as well as an A. Lincoln with that dial. It's very easy to read, and I think it was popular with railroaders for that reason.

Your Bunn Special signed case is, of course, correct for the age of your watch, and looks to be in nice shape. That's definitely a nice bonus!

One can never go wrong with a Bunn Special. It's my opinion that the 16 size version is definitely a step up from its most direct competitor, the Hamilton 992.

Ben,

A question if I may.

My watch seems to run well, but it suffers from what I would call a "droopy hour hand", in that the hour hand seems to sit to far down on the post. While the hour hand seems to run around most of the dial well, when its between 5:20 and 6:40, the top of the second hand gets caught on the bottom of the hour hand. Do you think that this is something that a watch repair person could easily fix?

Thanks,

Jim

Jim,

What you describe is fairly common. Normally the hour hand just needs a small tweek up close to the hub to allow everything to clear correctly. Of course, this is touchy, since if it's brought up too much it will catch on the minute hand. Sometimes, the second hand just needs to be pushed further down on the post, although you don't want it dragging on the dial either.

Adjustments like this are fairly routine, and it shouldn't be any big deal for a watchmaker to get it sorted out for you.

quote:

Originally posted by ddurling:
Thanks for the concern. Turns out I was totally wrong about the shop! With a bit of sleuthing, I found out the owner had to undergo a medical procedure and was out for a bit. His answering machine filled up and stopped working properly. He'll be back to work soon and will give me an update on the watch. It would've been helpful to post a notice at the shop, but perhaps there was a medical emergency and he didn't have time.

Here's an update on the watch shop to which I originally took my great-grandfather's pocket watch. Turns out the shop owner was just indicted on 9 counts of theft:
Police allege the shop owner "either outright stole items placed in his care or "deprived an owner of property" by keeping watches and clocks in his possession for as long as 20 years. Two counts are felonies of theft greater than $1,000, and the remainder are misdemeanors."
story here
The good news in all this is that I retrieved my watch before the shop closed and sent it to Ben for repair. Ben provided excellent service: I highly recommend his services!

Ben, Hello. hope you are diong well. Bought a P-watch some time at an antique store!? anyway looking at the face has a R-hand stem, name onface Burlington Special, Nickel case? I will try to find a way to get a pictured posted. If by some notion do you know of anyone down in Texas to refer to ? thanks James

James,

Your Burlington Special should be an Illinois product, and I would expect a watch with a "Burlington Special" signed dial to be a 19 jewel movement. These were railroad grade at the time of their production.

I have a friend in the Houston area who does good work and is very reasonable. I'm not sure if he's taking customers at this time, but I'll get in touch with him and find out.

Thanks Ben.hope to hear from you soon James

SMR will have a variety of genuine railroad watches on sale at York. Visit us at our booth at Orange Hall, AA-01. Hamilton, Elgin, Hampden - all have been serviced and are ready to help you run your railroad!

Dave

Does anyone know where I might get this watch repaired? Thank you, malcolm

quote:

Originally posted by Brother_Love:
Does anyone know of a jeweler who culd or would repair this watch? I would like to get it repaired so I can use it. Malcolm

Here is the photo. If it is worth repairing, who would you recommend? Thanks, Malcolm

It may be worth repairing, but more information is needed.

The main determiner is:

What brand is it? What is the serial number (by which the exact model can be determined)?

Also:

Do you have any idea of what is wrong with it? IE: is it wound tight? Does the balance wheel move freely? Does it need any cosmetic repair (crystal, hands, face)?

I have a reasonable collection of watches and know a good, fairly priced watchmaker. Cost to repair greatly depends on the watch and what work needs to be done, but you would be pleasantly surprised how many items are quite reasonable. Spare parts are like fixing postwar trains - often, almost usually available - except if something is particularly rare.

Thanks for the response. The watch is an Elgin and I assumed that wads the serial number that is in the photo. Should I look at another location? The crystal is broken and I have no idea how to check the other items you mentioned. Malcolm

I can't quite make out the number in your picture. That is the one needed.

A new crystal is only a $25-35 item. No big deal.

Wow, it has been a while since anything was posted to this thread.

Here are a few acquisitions since then

I just read this entire thread and it as a fascinating topic- certainly one of the best threads I've seen on this forum. Thanks Ben for sharing your collection and knowledge.

Do you sell watches? Repair them? I would be afraid to buy a watch without knowing what condition the movement is in.

I have some old watches I got from my Dad. One of them ran for a while and then stropped. I have been told that if a watch isn't used for many years and then wound, that the grease/lubrication will have hardened and then when you wind the watch and run it, it basically eats up the works. Badly expressed, but is this true?

Well, anyway, I'm a rung down from Rich. My pocket watch for the last few years has been my flip phone! I flip it open and read the time just like a pocket watch! It does have one feature the old watches can't match- it updates the time automatically by linking to a tower!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Do you sell watches? Repair them? I would be afraid to buy a watch without knowing what condition the movement is in.

I have some old watches I got from my Dad. One of them ran for a while and then stropped. I have been told that if a watch isn't used for many years and then wound, that the grease/lubrication will have hardened and then when you wind the watch and run it, it basically eats up the works. Badly expressed, but is this true?

Hi Will,

Thanks for you nice comments.

I do occasionally do repairs, although I'm also a full time student and am not taking new repair work now until I get caught up. I have also at times offered watches for sale here on the buy-sell board, but I quit because I didn't get a whole lot of interest.

As far as your lubrication question:

Horological lubricants were historically animal derived products, most notable whale and other marine life. In fact, Nye oil, one of the oldest and in the past one of the best oil makers, was noted for their porpoise jaw oil.

For the past 60 years or so, virtually all horological lubricants have been synthetic.

The animal lubricants do break down and harden over time-often degraded performance can be seen in as little as 2-3 years(this was a large part of the reason why watches in railroad time service had to be cleaned every 2 years). It's not uncommon to find a watch now that won't run at all due to being completely gummed up from this type of oil.

It's not a good idea to run a watch with degraded lubricant extensively, for the reason you've cited. At the same time, though, it certainly won't hurt to wind the watch up part of the way every once in a while and let it run down.

Modern sythetic lubricants don't really degrade, whether in the bottle or in the watch. One of the best general purpose watch oils ever made was Elgin M56b, which hasn't been made since the 1960s. I still use this lubricant regularly, and it still works great. What does happen, though, is that the oil can attract dust and dirt which can then abrade the pivots. So, a watch lubricated with synthetic oil and used regularly still needs to be cleaned every couple of years-pocket watch cases aren't very airtight.

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:
... although I'm also a full time student...

Ben,

Looked at your profile and saw you a Chemistry Graduate Student. When do you find the time for hobbies? Kudos on the school.

Where do you find these gems you get? I love the Bunn 17 J movement - really nice.

Larry

..

quote:

Originally posted by LLKJR:

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:
... although I'm also a full time student...

Ben,

Looked at your profile and saw you a Chemistry Graduate Student. When do you find the time for hobbies? Kudos on the school.

Where do you find these gems you get? I love the Bunn 17 J movement - really nice.

Larry

Larry,

The watches are one of the things that help keep my sanity intact-although they can drive you up a wall at times too!

As for where I get the watches-believe it or not, a lot of mine come off of Ebay. You just have to watch pretty closely and learn how to find the hidden gems based on limited information.

The good stuff is still out there. The 17j Bunn, above, is one such example. The version with "Illinois Watch Company" spelled out is one of the toughest ones to find, with only 900 made.

What I don't get on Ebay primarily comes from other collectors. The Hampden Railway above is one I came upon that way. I put out a request for Kentucky private label watches, and that one was offered to me.

I found this thread looking for some info about my great Grandad's pocket watch. I have to say as a someone who's posted in various forums for quite some time, this is without a doubt one of the best all time threads I've ever seen online. So, kudos to you ben10ben!

 

So onto my question, perhaps someone here could tell me a little bit more about this amazing watch I have. It is an Illinois Watch Company pocket watch serial #513882, which I believe (from my research) was produced in 1884-85. It has a full plate gold movement which merely says Illinois Watch Company #109523. This picture is the closest one I could find that looks like it, although it is not an exact match. Any info would be appreciated, Thanks!

 

HRM,

 

It sounds like you have a nice watch, and it's always special when you have a family piece. 

 

The serial number you've provided corresponds to an 18 size, full plate gr. 101 7 jewel. The reference I'm using gives a date of 1883, although the dates you mention above are just as likely to be correct. Serial numbers were allocated in blocks sometimes years before a watch was produced, and the watches were not necessarily finished in serial number order, so dating within a 2-3 year window is often as close as we can get.

 

The watch you've pictured has a Chalmer's patent regulator, which is a desireable(if not rare) feature. Does your watch have this?

Wow, thank you ben10ben for your post and patience, I finally was able to get the girlchild's help with some pictures I'll upload to the thread 

 

I don't think my watch has a Chalmer's patent regulator, unless it's hidden. It does say Patent Pinion and according to some of my research the "Patent Pinion" was never on a watch with a Chalmer's patent regulator but then I saw pictures where there was one (a Chalmer's PR) that clearly said "Patent Pinion" so who knows.

 

I haven't seen any pictures like mine. See what you think, and thanks for your help~!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had trouble the other day dropping these in, way,way too big pictures. Here's the face and case to the watch above. It's missing the top of the stem wind, but the watch works.

 

 

Thanks and sorry it took me so long

An interesting topic. I liked seeing all the RR watches out there. I have a few myself. Illinois, Hamilton, Elgin, etc. Wish I had and could afford a watch with a winding indicator!!

Ok, so i finally took some higher resolution pics of my GF's 1922-25 Ball-Waltham, size 16, 21 jewel ORRS pocket watch...  I know that this is towards the end of Waltham's production runs for Ball, but does anyone know how close?  It is serial number B270815, and the last dates of production (depending on which source you look through) is either 1922 or 1925, with the last year's production serials in the B270,000-B271,000 range.

 

 

 

It's be great if it was close to the end!

 

Thanks,

Mario

 

 

It's hard to believe this thread has no new posts in the past year. A lot of great information and pictures here. Time to get it going again......pun intended.

Ask and ye shall receive...my collecting interests have shifted a bit, and most of the RR watches I'm buying these days are private labels. I have a bunch I haven't shown here, but here's one "at the top of the pile."

 

This is an 18 size 21j Illinois Bunn Special signed for Fred Pieper of Covington KY. Pieper was a railroad watch inspector located in downtown Covington, across the street from Motch Jewelers which is still in business.

 

I "stalked" this particular watch for a few years, and was finally able to make a deal with the seller this past January. I've since found a few more watches signed for Fred Pieper, but this one remains my favorite.

 

 

There sure are, and I don't even own a railroad pocket watch (aside from an inexpensive one purchased a dozen or so years ago).  The photos in this thread are absolutely gorgeous...works of art.

I have really come to enjoy the Illinois Sangamo grade watches. The Sangamo was the second best quality 16 size grade Illinois made in models 4 and 5(the Getty models, as distinguished by one winding wheel), and are really nicely finished watches. For the serious Illinois collector, there are quite a few varieties to collect.

 

Sangamos are most often seen with one of two damaskeen patterns, the gold inlaid ribbon(an example of which I show earlier in this thread) and the bright spot pattern. There are also a handful of other much less common patterns.

 

The Sangamo started life as a single roller grade, and was later upgraded to double roller. The double roller ones were marked as such. In addition to this marking variation, there were some changes to the text and location of the "Adjusted" marking.

 

Below is the most common Sangamo, with the full "Adjusted Temperature 6 Positions Isochonism" marking.

 

 

Also take note of the dial, which is correct for a Sangamo of this serial number range(the hands are incorrect and have been changed in the time since this photo was taken)

 

 

Here is an earlier single roller Sangamo with the simple "Adjusted" marking. Please also note the dial, which is similar to but different from the earlier one. This dial is correct on this watch.

 

 

 

 

What a neat thread!

 

My old pocket watch is my great grandfathers.  Not railroad, he was a steamship engineer from ~1880-1920s.  The watch is a Keystone dustproof which dates it from 1886-1891.  It has not run longer for more than my 60+ years and everyone I have taken it too just says it cannot be fixed.  It is in a hunter case which no one has been able to identify to me.  The case just has 3 acorns and a serial number.  I have also been told that the acrylic crystal is original and somewhat unique to Keystone's being of the same material as the dustproof window on the mechanism.  I didn't even know acrylics had been around that long.

 

My other pocket watch is a Bulova Accutron which I was told is an authorized railroad wrist watch in a pocket watch case.

The Keystone Dustproofs are interesting movements and are an evolution of the Adams and Perry and Lancaster movements made in the same factory that would eventually house the Hamilton Watch Company(although much of the Hamilton machinery came from the Aurora Watch Company). 

 

These can be fixed, and I know of an individual who had balance staffs made for them in China a few years back.

Thanks for the new updates Ben.

Illinois grade 179 for R. Baude Louisville, KY. At the time this was made, it was the highest grade watch Illinois made.

 

Unfortunately, the matching private label dial is long gone. The dial I put on the watch is a bit too late for it(I'd expect it at about SN 1.4-1.5 million), but is at least the correct quality dial.

 

 

 

 

My Granddad's pocket watch from his days with the L&N.

I grew up in N. Ky and as a kid we rode our bicycles down to Covington a lot.

It is need of a good cleaning and lube, just haven't found a place around here yet. Will have to find one and get it serviced so I can pass it on to my grandson(hopefully not to soon though) .

Doug,

 

Looks like a nice watch. Have you looked at the movement?

 

From the dial, I would guess it to be an earlyish 18 size Bunn Special, possibly with the two-tone gold inlaid circle damaskeen pattern.