Running Lionel command in DCS environment

@Mallard4468 posted:

It "should" be properly grounded, but don't assume.  Here's a first step to check - use a receptacle tester like this one:  https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kl...ster-RT110/206517828

Or spend a couple bucks more and get one that also tests GFI function.

It wouldn't have passed electrical inspection without proper grounding in 2005.

@msp posted:

Good news is they are both bluetooth and that is sufficient for my need for speed control, couplers horn and whistle.   Just eliminates any older TMCC without BT.

Score one for Bluetooth!

@H1000 posted:

It wouldn't have passed electrical inspection without proper grounding in 2005.

You should be right.  Depends on how careful the inspection was.  If there was one - which there should have been.  But one can be sure for $10... I like insurance, especially when it's cheap, and I've seen too much sloppy work.

@Mallard4468 posted:

You should be right.  Depends on how careful the inspection was.  If there was one - which there should have been.  But one can be sure for $10... I like insurance, especially when it's cheap, and I've seen too much sloppy work.

Any inspector worth their weight in dirt already has the same $10 device and it's the easiest way to fail an inspection with minimal effort. Where I live, we have 2 city and 2 county inspectors any new build or remodel must be signed off by them before an occupancy certificate can be issued. It's usually a very strict process with a nice paper trail so you know who to blame when something wasn't done right.

But for $10, it's a good tool to keep around!

"I've seen too much sloppy work."

Even with work that is well done, connections loosen over time.  This is true in particular for outlets with frequent use which can literally cause the outlet to get quite sloppy.  One way of assessing this is your simple device, but another is to test the command base wall wart in another outlet in the same room to see if the outlet in use has lost its mechanical connection to ground for some reason.  If all outlets are ungrounded, you know that the outside ground isn't working now or wasn't ever working properly.

Clearly something is specific to this fellow's house as the TMCC system worked fine at the dealer.  The other thing to be sure of is that the wall wart power supply was used at the successful dealer's test.  If it wasn't, the wall wart may be defective. No power or a broken ground wire in the wall wart could each fail to provide a good quality TMCC RF signal .

Okay - so here is the latest....I have set up a test track and brought out a separate transformer and hooked it up to the test.  Test track is sitting in same room as layout in fact on my table for my layout.  TMCC plugged into the same wall outlet -  Voila it works on the test track!  I was able to program the number and operate the engine.   I made one change - moved the wire (connecting TMCC ) from the outside rail of test track to the outside track of my layout.  then moved the engine over to my layout.   Engine came up conventional  - does not recognize tmcc

So to summarize

1.  TMCC works

2.  Engine works

3.  Was able to program and operate on test track

4.  Using same wall plug for TMCC and same engine..... was not able to work on my layout.

Thanks for the input.....

When i hook up the alternate transformer directly to the layout I get TMCC....

SO my DCS hookup/Z4000 is where this issues appears to be

I have programed two engines on the test track - after several attempts on my layout 1 of the engines actually worked once.   But on a second try went back to conventional mode.  So I have had one success

So hope someone finds this interesting.   Set up the second transformer wired to the same terminal block my z4000 is wired to.  Kept them both wired to the terminal block.  Can run TMCC from second transformer.   Then All I do is move the wire to the track from the second transformer and try to use the existing z4000....does not pick up the TMCC signal.   So it looks like I could run TMCC would just have to use a dedicated second transformer to do it.

Well, that makes no sense to me, hundreds of people run TMCC/Legacy using the Z4000.  There has to be more to the story...

I would look for a short between the outside rails (track common) and the ground plane (the house wiring ground).

Verify that your Z4000 common outputs are isolated from its power cord ground pin (with the on/off switch in both positions).

The only thing that changes is the wire from the TMCC either directly to transformer number 2 or directly to the track.  Everything else stays the same.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, that makes no sense to me, hundreds of people run TMCC/Legacy using the Z4000.  There has to be more to the story...

I hear you...I am open....

I will keep playing with it.....

although since I have a solution might just move on.......

any problem with two transformers going to the same terminal block - keep only one on at at time.

@msp posted:

any problem with two transformers going to the same terminal block - keep only one on at at time.

A really huge problem!  Feeding voltage back into the outputs will likely damage a transformer with electronic controls like the Z4000, and if you feed voltage back into a PW transformer like the ZW, you get 120 volts at the plug!

Been working on a couple projects since I have couple days off.  Want to revisit this one.....

To summarize - I have completely DCS environment want to add Lionel CAB1 and remote.  Cannot get TMCC to work on layout (one exception, see below).   Set up test track (separate transformer) and it worked fine on separate test track transformer to track no TIU or anything.   EXCeption.   It did work one time after testing on the test track -  got it to go about 10 feet then seemed to lose the signal.   Every other time the engine starts in conventional mode.

1.  CAB -1 works - worked it at a LHS.

2.  Engines are new (about a year old) and working properly.

3.  they work fine in conventional mode

4.  command base plugged into wall

5.  house 2005 properly wired

6.  the one time it worked  command wire to terminal block with black from TIU - also tried directly to the track.

Anyone one want to take this one on?  

Thanks again.

Just to make sure, the power adaptor for the TMCC Base has three prongs to plug into the wall correct?

@H1000 posted:

Just to make sure, the power adaptor for the TMCC Base has three prongs to plug into the wall correct?

No it does not.  

@msp posted:

No it does not.  

There's your problem.  The third prong is a grounding pin that serves in the important task of transmitting the TMCC signal through your household grounding system.

Fortunately there are work arounds to this: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...0#159660138867159620

is there just not a product I can go buy

@msp  I run TMCC off my DCS system. Going back thru all the posts, there is a lot of good advice. Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one.  @H1000 comment is spot on, Lionel used a different wall wart to power the TMCC control box, voltage is different and the ground pin not normally seen on common wall warts is a must. I ended up returning my first TMCC unit as it did not have the wall wart and I did not like the "work around" offered on the forum.  I could not find only the 3 prong wall wart anywhere. Make sure you have the recommended cable for connecting the DCS and TMCC boxes.

The other issue you may run into is the engine address number. DCS cannot change the Lionel address and changing it on the TMCC roster does nothing. Either you get lucky the engine is still on "0"  or "1" (don't remember the default) or you need the TMCC handheld to create a new engine address number.  @Mark Boyce has a nice description on how he solved the issue. Once you understand the solution its simple, however figuring it out was a nightmare for me.

The DCS TMCC engine operating interface is OK but not great, so my tendency is to run those engines on transformer control. I have a 4 Atlas and Weaver engines which run TMCC - I am considering changing their controls to the new Blunami Decoders over time.

@msp  is there just not a product I can go buy  -- You could just buy an old Cab1 Command Base and Remote Control with the correct wall wart - they can rival the cost of the new Lionel system. Or just "bite-the-bullet and order the new Base 3.

I picked up my replacement base for $80 and a remote for $60.  Right now sets are pushing $250 to $350.   Not sure why I would spend $250 or more on an ancient system when the replacement is around $450 - when it becomes available.

Absent those options, its run the engines on transformer control or do a conversion.   

@ScoutingDad posted:

@msp  I run TMCC off my DCS system. Going back thru all the posts, there is a lot of good advice. Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one.  @H1000 comment is spot on, Lionel used a different wall wart to power the TMCC control box, voltage is different and the ground pin not normally seen on common wall warts is a must. I ended up returning my first TMCC unit as it did not have the wall wart and I did not like the "work around" offered on the forum.  I could not find only the 3 prong wall wart anywhere. Make sure you have the recommended cable for connecting the DCS and TMCC boxes.

The other issue you may run into is the engine address number. DCS cannot change the Lionel address and changing it on the TMCC roster does nothing. Either you get lucky the engine is still on "0"  or "1" (don't remember the default) or you need the TMCC handheld to create a new engine address number.  @Mark Boyce has a nice description on how he solved the issue. Once you understand the solution its simple, however figuring it out was a nightmare for me.

The DCS TMCC engine operating interface is OK but not great, so my tendency is to run those engines on transformer control. I have a 4 Atlas and Weaver engines which run TMCC - I am considering changing their controls to the new Blunami Decoders over time.

thank you - so I think my options are

• use the fix described here...but I will need a little more detailed instruction
• get the DCS cable to TMCC and understand those limitations
• run in conventional
• I saw a command base for sale that in at least the picture has the three pronged wall wart go buy that and sell what i have.

@H1000 posted:

There's your problem.  The third prong is a grounding pin that serves in the important task of transmitting the TMCC signal through your household grounding system.

Fortunately there are work arounds to this: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...0#159660138867159620

want to revisit this one time before I go buy a three prong plug or try some other fix.    I do get it to work on a separate test track.   Separate transformer and test track it works 3 feet either way.  Also had it at LHS and it worked there as well.

Just wanted to be sure those facts didn't change anything.

The TMCC signal while transmitted over the track is not directly picked up from the wheels of your engine. Every TMCC engine has an antenna that receives the signal. While you can get this to work on a test track and some layouts, the earth ground (third prong) on your outlet is also used to essentially turn your whole house into a TMCC transmitter in addition to the outside rails of your track.

Re: "TMCC signal while transmitted over the track is not directly picked up from the wheels of your engine."  ... is not correct, please review Dale Manquen's article on the TMCC signal.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...20Dale%20Manquen.pdf

@H1000 posted:

The TMCC signal while transmitted over the track is not directly picked up from the wheels of your engine. Every TMCC engine has an antenna that receives the signal.

The antenna is clearly part of the equation, but without the track connection, you ain't going anywhere.  The signal on the track is NOT picked up by the antenna, AAMOF if you get too much track signal close to the antenna, it swamps out the actual over-the-air TMCC signal.  The signal on the track goes directly to the TMCC receiver, it provides the common for the received over-the-air signal.

@Tracker John posted:

Re: "TMCC signal while transmitted over the track is not directly picked up from the wheels of your engine."  ... is not correct, please review Dale Manquen's article on the TMCC signal.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...20Dale%20Manquen.pdf

As it was explained to me by a Lionel rep back in 1998, the connection to the outside rails of the track acts as a ground reference/plane.  The antenna does not receive a signal from the outside rails as was stated in the document you referenced: We must stop here to dispel Myth Number 1 – “The antenna on a TMCC locomotive picks up the Track signal.” Yes the U terminal connection is important to receiving the OTA TMCC signal, I should have been more clear in my earlier statement.

Before Dale Manquen analyzed how the TMCC signal propagates and is received by the locomotives, Lionel's patent (5,441,223 dated 15 Aug 1994) was the go-to reference for TMCC.  The patent's diagrams show two RF signals - the CAB1<->Base1 communication, and a signal radiating from the track.   The "Earth ground" signal component from the house wiring is not illustrated in patent diagrams.   The patent states:

The controller transmits control signals between a rail of the track and earth ground, generating an electromagnetic field which extends for several inches around the track.  A receiver in the locomotive can then pick up signals from this electromagnetic field. 

Myth Number 1 on how the locomotive receives the TMCC signal.

The patent statement, along with the patent's diagrams illustrating the field radiating from the track, led me to believe the locomotive's antennas were picking up the radiated track signal.  Additional explanations from Lionel techs did not correct my misunderstanding.  Myth Number 1 was firmly in my mind.

I was challenged to solve TMCC signal issues on a multi-level layout and Lionel's videos on TMCC at the time - especially the one describing a TMCC Force Field - were not helpful.  This thread questions Lionel's explanation of the TMCC signal.  (Thankfully, the link to the referenced TMCC Force Field video now returns "It looks like you are heading the wrong way.")

Dale's explanation on TMCC signal propagation produced an AHA! moment that guided me to a solution that used strategically placed Earth ground wires.  The signal field radiated by the house Earth ground wiring is critical for TMCC reception in the locomotives.  The signal portion received from the track common via the wheels and frame of the loco can be assumed to be strong.  But the signal portion received from the house wiring is much weaker and depends on the proximity of house ground wires.  Obstructions and metal objects on the layout connected to track common will weaken the ground signal.  Strengthening the house ground signal on the layout has solved all of my TMCC signal challenges.  The forum has numerous threads (search TMCC ground plane) on how to accomplish this.

So if you are having TMCC signal issues after doing basic troubleshooting (i.e. the third pin of the power brick is connected to the DC barrel plug and the outlet itself is grounded), a review of Dale's TMCC Signal Basics is recommended.  Imagine how the house ground signal is propagating to the locomotive trouble spots on the layout and find a way to provide the TMCC ground plane to that area.