Scale GG1 Comparison - GG1s live on!

quote:

Originally posted by CNJ 3676:
Those G's are Kato N scale locomotives. I should be getting my PC 4885 and AMTK 918 this weekend. If you are a true fan of the GG1, you owe it to yourself to take a look at the Kato model. It is exquisite.

Bob

Hmmm, just where did I put that microscope?

quote:

Those G's are Kato N scale locomotives. I should be getting my PC 4885 and AMTK 918 this weekend. If you are a true fan of the GG1, you owe it to yourself to take a look at the Kato model. It is exquisite.

N is nice, but I'm still waiting on a MTH Black PC GG-1. It was nice they made the 5 stripe conversion scheme, but a nice black PC one to match the Amtrak ones I got from them would be a very nice addition indeed.

I have JLC PC, a Williams PC and as I mentioned the ones above. All I want is a matching black PC from MTH.

(yeah and I'm gonna bite at those Katos for my small N Scale collection too.)

Great N models. My old "Arnold" versions just don't quite cut it anymore.

Ben,

You're a GG1 fan?? We never knew. This definitely bumps you up a notch or two to Run 8 status.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by prrbill:
Ben,

You're a GG1 fan?? We never knew. This definitely bumps you up a notch or two to Run 8 status.

Bill

I was thinking of having Jeff paint one for Erie LAckawanna

quote:

Originally posted by bluelinec4:

quote:

Originally posted by prrbill:
Ben,

You're a GG1 fan?? We never knew. This definitely bumps you up a notch or two to Run 8 status.

Bill

I was thinking of having Jeff paint one for Erie LAckawanna

It might not look too bad if the same "nose treatment" that the E units had is used. My personal favorite for a fantasy paint scheme would be the purple and silver Atlantic Coast Line. After all, the Gs did haul the Champion between New York and Washington.

Ben,

I know of two elder Forumites who've had their GG1s painted different schemes; one NYC Gray with Lightening Stripes and the other had his painted (ugh! ) pink.

This possible paint job would absolutely drop you 2 or 3 notches. This would make your 109 (it is still 109, right?) car Beer Consist obstruct traffic. I'd rather you paint it NY Jets' Green and White and go on your railway.

Bill

Ben,
I have a mint-in-the-box JLG GG1 in the silver-black-red paint scheme you can buy from me, cheap!

Has anyone ever installed err sound in a gg1 conventional classic.i was able to find one of the older sound units(now discontinued) $49 ,will this fit and how is the sound.
thanks rich

1963ProStreet

Just saw this up on the big E site....since you were looking for one..


http://cgi.ebay.ca/Lionel-Scal...a1cd6e#ht_500wt_1156

Jonathan,

Here's a loaded question:

Pound for pound, and all things considered, who do you think makes or has made the finest model 3r GG1?

If that is an impossible question, and/or in addition; could you please list the 'best' ones in these categories: (Maybe first, second and third place slots?)

1. BEST DETAIL (who has made the most prototypical version?)

2. BEST SOUND

3. RUNNING PERFORMANCE (Including operating actions as a consideration, as well as reliability.)

Thanks!

In my opinion - only mine!

1. Best Detail - 3rd Rail. The brass makes all the difference in the refinement of detail and the closest to prototype detailing done on the riveted 4800 as near as I've found. Lionel JLC is second followed by MTH.

2. Best Sound - Lionel JLC. The sound systems is leaps ahead of anything done to date. MTH is a runner up. The ERR sound system in the 3rd Rail model was the best available for that run, but it is not quite up to the level of MTH.

3.Running Performance - You can't beat Williams for reliability and the old ones with full sound actually sound good. If you are into operating features the MTH version is formidable. For pulling I'd put the JLC, MTH and 3rd Rail versions into a single category. They can handle about 40 cars on a flat surface or slight grade. Williams are lighter so I normally double head them.


Based on my rating criteria of prototype fidelity - 3rd Rail has far exceeded the bar on my personal 'best' list. Between the welded body version and the riveted version, there are details that have not been captured elsewhere and the painting is taken directly from PRR drawings with precision not found on the competitions models. Sure I am a bit biased, but having all of these side by side, the differences are quite noticeable.

Having said that, I still will pick up other manufacturers versions when the price is right and the late addition of high FARR filters on the JLC PRR 4925 and PC versions are unique to all mass produced GG1's in any scale.

Jonathan, in another thread I mentioned that I have on order a ERR RS4 kit made specifically for the GG1. (For my Williams.)

This is a Railsounds 4 card. I guess it is some of the same sounds that are in the JLC.

I know they (ERR) update their product from time to time. What unit or rev do the 3rd Rail GG1's have in them?

I can't honestly say on the revision for the ERR boards in the 3rd Rail GG1s. My interest in that model had more to do with the physical model than the quality of the sounds.

The JLC had RS5.0 which is why it has the richer sound set.

Did all of the Penn Central GG-1s have the FARR filters?

That is a great question. Not all GG1s had FARR filters. After the 1955 "brownout" of the fleet due to fine ice crystals being sucked through the filters off the right-of-way, the only major modification to the GG1 was proposed and that was to relocate the filters higher in the carbody. A number of variations exist with some being not as noticeable as the ultimate FARR filter modification.

I don't have exact numbers in my head, but likely about 15% (maybe 15?) of the fleet received this modification and they tended to be the higher numbered GG1s that had the least years of service and in theory less mileage. The ones that Lionel did are accurate to prototype numbers and all Silver / Blue / Red painted Amtrak GG1s had FARR filters. A few prominent PC numbers included 4901 and 4903 which pulled the Robert Kennedy funeral train and the 4902 that was painted in the light blue "American Railroads" scheme. Another example is GG1 4890 (National Museum-Green Bay)that has been painted Tuscan Red with five stripes. 4890 never wore Tuscan red in service and none of the Tuscan Red GG1s has modifications done while they were in that paint.

Other variants of the modified GG1s can be seen by looking at images of New Jersey Transit GG1's 4872 (Scrapped) and 4876 (Baltimore) among others which received new vents behind the number boards, but did not change the overall look of the locomotive.

Most of the lower numbered GG1s that ended up in the Conrail freight pool after PC were largely unmodified.

Time to find some photos to post!

Jonathon, What is your honest opinion of the brass weaver gg1? I read your thoughts on the first page but was wondering if you have anything else to add, pro or con since that was almost 3 years ago? Thanks again for your thread on the gg1's, it's a great resource.


Dave

quote:

Originally posted by david1:
Jonathon, What is your honest opinion of the brass weaver gg1? I read your thoughts on the first page but was wondering if you have anything else to add, pro or con since that was almost 3 years ago? Thanks again for your thread on the gg1's, it's a great resource.


Dave

Jonathan is the expert, but I can also give you my opinion on the Weaver. If you get one make sure it has flywheels. I've heard from a club buddy that his (an early version) had the non flywheel motors and he had to replace them. They have no sound, but for 99 bucks you can add that. They look almost exactly like a Williams. The brass body is nice, but if you are paying above $250 or so, I'd go with a Williams. The Williams TRUE BLAST horn and bell stinks, and there are no running sounds. But when wired in series, they run terrifically and with a little craftsmanship you can have a real looker.

I am in the middle of bashing my William's with scale ladders, Precision Scale lost wax couplers, steam lines, chains, pantographs etc., and it is looking sensational. I installed the ERR GG1 sounds and they are great. (RS4)

I will be posting photos when she is all done.

Here's a sneak preview of the Williams bash, although it is not done.



As far as the WIlliams overhang, I am lucky to run no less than 072, so it really does not bug me. Good point though.

Bash is all scratch building except valve handle, chains and scale coupler and gladhands. Both ends done.

Nice job Dreyfuss, looks great. Where did you get the parts? I also have some of the Williams GG1's and like them allot. I will order the bicentennial unit this year when it is released by WBB.

quote:

Originally posted by david1:
Jonathon, What is your honest opinion of the brass weaver gg1? I read your thoughts on the first page but was wondering if you have anything else to add, pro or con since that was almost 3 years ago? Thanks again for your thread on the gg1's, it's a great resource.


Dave

Dave,

I am still a big fan of the Weaver GG1 with four of them on my roster. They are essentially the same chassis as the Williams and MTH with a nicely done brass body. The early ones did not have flywheels, but are still very good runners and great pullers. Weaver weighted them substantially, so they do pull well. I like the refinement of brass and the paint schemes were well executed.

Keep in mind also that the later Weaver GG1's had a sound option with the original Proto-Sounds prior to MTH using a similar, but inferior version in their Proto-1 locomotives. Weaver's QSI systems involved a plug in board that was replaceable and separate to the rest of the electronics. Weaver also offered several road names that are not easy to find these days including Amtrak red/white/blue and Penn Central. The DGLE paint is one of the closer variations I've seen.

On the downside, I tried to run my 4876 late last year and it was 'kaput'. Since it was a public show, I promptly changed it out and have yet had the time to diagnose the problem. I suspect, some lubrication will solve the issue.

The 4876 in Tuscan:




Single Stripe Tuscan:


Single Stripe Silver:


Single Stripe DGLE:

quote:

Originally posted by Dreyfuss Hudson:
Here's a sneak preview of the Williams bash, although it is not done.

Nicely done!

@Jonathan; Thanks.

@david1; Thanks, I scratched built the ladders on the nose, the handles (hard to see in that photo) on the pilot, the moving coupler bar dealio and all the piping.

Bought stuff: The scale brass coupler is from 'Precision Scale' as are the chains, and the round valve handle. The glad hands and such I had in my bash kit, but you can find them. THis is a work in progress and things will be smoothed out, and I will be adding scale brass Pantographs and scale brass ladders (4 side ones) soon. Will post photos when it is done.

quote:

Originally posted by GG1 4877:
T

Chessieman - Glad I could help you find your inner "G". The Weaver is a keeper. I like mine very much although when I tried to run my 4876 recently, it was "kaput". I need to take a peek under the hood and see what's up.

I hope you got that Weaver fixed. I got mine (DGLE five-stripe) when it was first released. I still like it a lot. I have all of the Lionel models that I want, both DGLE models, the tuscan five-stripe model and the silver single red stripe model.

One important thing I omitted to note in this customization, is that I polished the body with a high quality car polish, followed by a wax. I like the shiny look on the GG-1s and the Williams responded nicely.

Now I just wish I could find the correct color Keystone decal. I tried micromark and they don't have it in O scale.

Hopefully this week the scale brass Pantographs will get here as well as the ladders.

quote:

Originally posted by Dreyfuss Hudson:


One important thing I omitted to note in this customization, is that I polished the body with a high quality car polish, followed by a wax. I like the shiny look on the GG-1s and the Williams responded nicely.

Now I just wish I could find the correct color Keystone decal. I tried micromark and they don't have it in O scale.

Hopefully this week the scale brass Pantographs will get here as well as the ladders.

Looks great. Where did you get the scale pantographs?

quote:

Looks great. Where did you get the scale pantographs?

Thanks!
Those pantographs you see in the photo are just painted Williams ones. The new brass pantographs and ladders that are on their way are from Ed Duddy out in St Louis.

quote:

Originally posted by Dreyfuss Hudson:

quote:

Looks great. Where did you get the scale pantographs?

Thanks!
Those pantographs you see in the photo are just painted Williams ones. The new brass pantographs and ladders that are on their way are from Ed Duddy out in St Louis.

I thought Ed Duddy had retired. I do have to pull out my Duddy catalog. Thank you for the heads up.

4877:

Did the 4876 happen to find itself by chance in a station basement? That might be your problem?

But G wiz, this motors are beautiful!

quote:

Originally posted by DominicMazoch:
4877:

Did the 4876 happen to find itself by chance in a station basement? That might be your problem?

But G wiz, this motors are beautiful!

Perhaps it needs a trip to the basement first. The prototype seemed to work pretty well after that happened.

PRR 4876 Crash!

Actually, that is what needs to be done to the real '76. Fix up the body and diaplay it at WUS!

Jonathan,

Good to see this thread going on into infinity.

I may be out in Phoenix in May on a photo shoot. I will be leading a tour of
the southwest with two other professional photographers. Perhaps we can get together for a brew and a burger.

Here is a GG-1 question. Is there a way of counting the number of different paint schemes for the GG-1 including special event schemes like Bicentennial celebrations and the like and cataloguing all of the images? Silly question . . . . I have seen some GG-1's in storage and in transition eras where there was no clear road name. Would we include those as valid "types?"

Eliot

Eliot,

We should definitely get together when you are out this way. We should talk about your photo locations too. I've probably shot most of them too!

As to cataloging GG1s:

It would be a difficult project to document every scheme photographically for every GG1. I wouldn't say impossible, but nearly so! There are many, many, many photos of the GG1 for a locomotive that only had 139 units.

I consider the transition schemes valid as many lived on those schemes until the end. NJT 4880 wore its PRR single stripe and DGLE until it was retired in 1983 as did a number of Conrail and Amtrak Gs. Actually cataloging those later years (1965-1983) are some of the easier to track. PC 4801 with its five stripes and PC logo stencil was interesting.

What I often see missing in documentation are the earlier GG1s (4801-4860 +/-). Since they were the first to go into freight I wonder if photographers didn't take as much interest as they were not pulling the limiteds at high speeds.

The special schemes are pretty straight forward -

4800: 4 unique schemes never on any other GG1 (original, Loewy 1, Bicentennial & Conrail Blue)
4829: abbreviated stripes with continued debate on stripe color.
4866 / 4872 / 4880: Only 3 with silver and red stripe.
4877: NJT Tuscan Red restoration
4902: American Railroads blue in 1969
4907 / 4916: Only 2 with single stripe Tuscan.
4935: Amtrak DGLE restoration
921: Amtrak PC Black with large Savings Bond Logo

I think I'm missing a few, but not many.

Somewhere I have a folder of GG1s in various schemes cataloged by road number. After my current project, this could be good exercise.

Guys,

Try this page for 24 variations. Understand that the DGLE and Tuscan Red representations are limited by the web colors available when this website was first put up.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by prrbill:
Guys,

Try this page for 24 variations. Understand that the DGLE and Tuscan Red representations are limited by the web colors available when this website was first put up.

Bill

Thanks Bill. At first glance the only one I see missing is the PC two-tone logo variation.

It is also missing the 1952 repaints of 5 stripe DGLE versions with "Duluxe" in lieu of gold leaf.

Okay, GG1 fans.

The variation of the PC scheme worn by the 4860 is one not many folks are aware of:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=47847

This variation didn't even make it to spikesis.com!

Bob

CNN 3676,

Thanks for the photo.
I never saw that one before.

Eliot

I wonder how the 3rd rail GG1 would compare?

Sure would like to see some of the less common variations show up in 027. Not having ample space I'v been on the 027 route for sometime. Maybe RMT can pick up the slack and slide in some of the PCs and Conrail schemes.


rat