I'd like to stay positive Marty, but I have a bad feeling that Lionel is hoping this all blows over and it'll just get buried. Other than one "we're looking at 3rd parties" reference, I haven't seen anything else that suggests that the ERR product line will be revived.
While I'd like to remain optimistic, Marty, I"m with GRG on this one.
Btw, does anyone other than me also question the timing of this elimination, I mean Lionel doing this during mid Spring when active participation in O gauge is waning as the majority of folks begin making that seasonal pilgrimage from actively working inside on their trains and layouts to outdoor summer activities and vacations. Lionel management might well be depending on an "out of sight, out of mind train attentive" summertime mindstate of many O gaugers, thus assuaging their angst, anger, focus, zeal against, and general concern for this decision until next fall's train season when the effect of summer lethargy over Lionel's decision might make it too difficult for O gaugers to once again become emboldened and launch a formidable campaign to bring back tmcc to the consumer marketplace.
ogaugeguy posted:<big snip> ...for O gaugers to once again become emboldened and launch a formidable campaign to bring back tmcc to the consumer marketplace.
Other than boycotting new Lionel products and encouraging others to do likewise, what kind of 'formidable campaign' are we O gaugers capable of?
I'll try to stay positive for both of you. 
If all goes south you can tell me "I told you so".
I'm certainly not going to get my hopes up to far but right now until we hear something it does no good getting upset. If it goes wrong that will totally stink but if it goes right then I haven't spent the last few weeks letting it bother me.
I really would like it to work out. I'd like to see Alex, GRJ, and others be able to upgrade, create products, and continue to bring older locos alive.
Bob posted:ogaugeguy posted:<big snip> ...for O gaugers to once again become emboldened and launch a formidable campaign to bring back tmcc to the consumer marketplace.
Other than boycotting new Lionel products and encouraging others to do likewise, what kind of 'formidable campaign' are we O gaugers capable of?
Individually & collectively look for & help develop alternatives.
I have posted before that what Lionel did was to get the whole discussion off the front page while telling us nothing. We shall see what happens but I'm not convinced Lionel is serious about ERR's survival.
Dave
balidas posted:Bob posted:ogaugeguy posted:<big snip> ...for O gaugers to once again become emboldened and launch a formidable campaign to bring back tmcc to the consumer marketplace.
Other than boycotting new Lionel products and encouraging others to do likewise, what kind of 'formidable campaign' are we O gaugers capable of?
Individually & collectively look for & help develop alternatives.
What can we do??? While I may be 100% wrong (as I often am), I believe that there must be some sort of work around, that works like TMCC but is just different enough to avoid patent infringements. I also believe that the talented individual(s) needed to accomplish this goal, frequent the Forum. Otherwise, the market for otherwise "upgradeable" non-flywheel locomotives, and our hobby, will take a huge hit.
MartyE posted:Matt Makens posted:I don’t know that even the title if thus thread is accurate. I wouldn’t say it’s resserected but more like on life support. It’s on a feeding tube and ventilator and it’ll either pull thru on its own or they’ll pull the plug. Wait n see what happens with the future of the product line before you start dreaming about enhanced features and expansion.
Maybe a "Second Look by Lionel" maybe more appropriate. Regardless I think we need to be positive rather than derogatory otherwise our message gets lost in all the cab chatter. We can only wait at this point and see what and if there is a next move. Again we are better than we were over a week ago as far as where this stands. I'd like to stay optimistic.
You're right about one thing MartyE, and that is you can usually get more done with kind words enlieu of demands.
There is another saying that comes to mind, and "The Squeaking Wheel Gets Th Grease"....It was a constant that always worked when I was in the Trades Unions.
Brandy posted:You're right about one thing MartyE, and that is you can usually get more done with kind words enlieu of demands.
There is another saying that comes to mind, and "The Squeaking Wheel Gets Th Grease"....It was a constant that always worked when I was in the Trades Unions.
I would definitely not go silent. Squeak away but IMO the dialog has to remain civil but critical. Otherwise you'll just tick someone off and then where would we be. So far the discussion has been just that and I think we've done well in presenting our opinion.
Generally the squeaky wheel doesn’t get the grease, it gets labeled the squeaky wheel. I’m sure there are 3rd parties looking to make a deal to pick up the product line and I’m sure it will work itself out. I’m trying to stay positive but in 3 rsil there is no positive, just HOT and GND.
I’m looking for alternatives to this but there really are none and maybe it’s time for me to go back to 2 rail where the options for control are better
gunrunnerjohn posted:I'd like to stay positive Marty, but I have a bad feeling that Lionel is hoping this all blows over and it'll just get buried. Other than one "we're looking at 3rd parties" reference, I haven't seen anything else that suggests that the ERR product line will be revived.
Actually, Howard Hitchcock said:
"Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Lionel has entered into conversations with a third party to discuss the feasibility of taking over the distribution directly to consumers some of the more widely used ERR kits....Conversations are in the early stages but positive....If a deal comes to fruition between Lionel and another party (which seems likely), it will take several months for them to get stock and be back in business."
This seems like more than a "'we're looking at 3rd parties' reference." Hitchcock said they're talking with a specific third party and a deal with them seems likely. What more can Lionel say or do right now to suggest that the ERR product line will be revived? And what is it about what Hitchcock said that makes it seem like Lionel is trying to pull the wool over our eyes? Should we have expected them to say that in the 3 or 4 days that we were voicing our concerns on the Forum, they had finalized a deal with a third party and that on such-and-such a date the third party would be ready to start taking and fulfilling orders for ERR products?
I have to agree with John, Kenn and Bob. I have seen a few old Lionels that I would snap up and upgraded, not in this current enviroment. I am also boycotting Lionel products, until this mess gets straightened out. As someone stated why can't Atlas or 3rd rail supply us with the ERR product. If Lionel gives their blessing to do this would be a win win for everyone. I am also looking at other control systems for upgrades.
Keith L posted:...snip...This seems like more than a "'we're looking at 3rd parties' reference." Hitchcock said they're talking with a specific third party and a deal with them seems likely. What more can Lionel say or do right now to suggest that the ERR product line will be revived? And what is it about what Hitchcock said that makes it seem like Lionel is trying to pull the wool over our eyes? Should we have expected them to say that in the 3 or 4 days that we were voicing our concerns on the Forum, they had finalized a deal with a third party and that on such-and-such a date the third party would be ready to start taking and fulfilling orders for ERR products?
Keith, while he did say more than one sentence, I have to wonder how they managed to line up a 3rd party so fast. When it was announced at York, there was no mention of a 3rd party or a search for one. All that was stated was the doors are closing and we'll be supplying Atlas and 3rd Rail for some unknown period of time. When the idea of trying to arrange some consumer sales, all I saw was cold water tossed on the idea. Yet, by some miracle, in just a couple of days, they were "likely to make a deal with a 3rd party".
Sorry if I'm a skeptic, but that seems just a little too convenient to me. I've been around the block a few times, and I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. 
It seems more likely that all the angst stated here prompted them to make a response to "quiet the crowd" and hope the issue died down. I could certainly be wrong, and I hope I am, but a lot of laps around this track tells me it's a likely scenario. I'll be most pleased if something does materialize and we are still able to get ERR products.
nvocc5 posted:.... As someone stated why can't Atlas or 3rd rail supply us with the ERR product. If Lionel gives their blessing to do this would be a win win for everyone.
A big question to me is that if ERR products are still going to be made to supply Atlas and 3rd Rail, who's making them? And if that mystery company is already making those items, why is Lionel saying it's necessary to find another company to make them to sell to individuals?
NOBODY has to get angry and belligerent , just give lionel some time ,to come up with a viable plan for both sides . When the results come in , and they do drop ERR. It is real simple , close my wallet no more lionel , i have enough trains now . techman
breezinup posted:A big question to me is that if ERR products are still going to be made to supply Atlas and 3rd Rail, who's making them? And if that mystery company is already making those items,why is Lionel saying it's necessary to find another company to make them to sell to individuals?
I've reached out with the same question, and to date have gotten no reply, either logical or illogical. At the very least, just "please acknowledge the question." What would be the harm in doing that? I fail to see how the courtesy of answering could jeopardize or be detrimental to any ongoing negotiation Lionel might be engaged with concerning a successor to The ERR Company .
Rayin"S" posted:I don't want to let this topic on ERR fall to the bottom of the pile. Could it be that Atlas or 3rd Rail might sell to the aftermarket?
Landsteiner posted:
JohnGaltLines who hasn't posted in almost a year had a mockup converter box that he said worked to operate a LionChief loco from a cab-1, so the reverse (controlling TMCC/Legacy from a LionChief or Bluetooth app) is likely possible and not necessarily all that difficult.Landsteiner posted:
Might you be able to give a reference to the location of this information? I would love to put the FlyerChief remotes away.
Ray
I think JGL may have some other things posted about this, but here is one thread about TMCC and LC control. He is also still around as I saw a post from him to an older thread he was posting in within the last couple of days. A search for posts by him and maybe Lion Chief or something similar may produce more threads?
ERR is Lionel. All of the board designs, engineering and software are currently done so all they need to do is have a board shop in China make the boards.
Matt Makens posted:ERR is Lionel. All of the board designs, engineering and software are currently done so all they need to do is have a board shop in China make the boards.
If there are specialized IC chips and they are in short supply they would also have to be remade.
Steve
I’m not in procurement or engineering so I don't design or order the board or ICs to make them so I dont know and can fathom a guess. The speculation and skepticism on the post are amazing. The simple fact remains that the ERR line was not selling enough product to consumers to remain a viable business segment for Lionel to maintain. Most of the people on here stated they had projects they were waitng to buy upgrades for. Not bought upgrades for but waiting to buy upgrades for. Everybody loves the ERR products and wants to buy them at their convenience which is a nice deal. Wanting to buy something and buying it are not the same thing and wants don’t pay The bills, sales do. My suggestion to everyone reading this, is when and if the 3rd party gets the deal done and arranges the sale to John Q Public, buy the product, buy one for every loco you want to upgrade, buy a spare and buy one for a loco you plan to buy. I know one thing, without our purchases, the product line will cease to exist.
Matt Makens posted:I’m not in procurement or engineering so I don't design or order the board or ICs to make them so I dont know and can fathom a guess. The speculation and skepticism on the post are amazing. The simple fact remains that the ERR line was not selling enough product to consumers to remain a viable business segment for Lionel to maintain. Most of the people on here stated they had projects they were waitng to buy upgrades for. Not bought upgrades for but waiting to buy upgrades for. Everybody loves the ERR products and wants to buy them at their convenience which is a nice deal. Wanting to buy something and buying it are not the same thing and wants don’t pay The bills, sales do. My suggestion to everyone reading this, is when and if the 3rd party gets the deal done and arranges the sale to John Q Public, buy the product, buy one for every loco you want to upgrade, buy a spare and buy one for a loco you plan to buy. I know one thing, without our purchases, the product line will cease to exist.
oh, Please! Sort of like a hop up kit for old aurora cars!
Shawn, how many ERR products have you bought in the last 5 yeas? You’ve been one of the most vocal people on both of the ERR threads, just how good a customer are you?
Matt Makens posted:Shawn, how many ERR products have you bought in the last 5 yeas? You’ve been one of the most vocal people on both of the ERR threads, just how good a customer are yo Have many sitting in a box right in front of me? Plus, Motor encoders by the score! Sound cards , Power Supply's AC REG'S. Smoke Units. chuff switches , LCRU's LCRU2 , r2lc's
see, I knew this was coming. Same ,with postwar parts TMCC modular boards. Boxes of stuff.... I stopped buying engines and became a parts buyer. If I do buy a engine. I order the parts I think might break. Battery covers ,pilots , etc. I have parts coming out of the.....motor encoders , sound board, sound power supply's. Motherboards..the mother load. .As for ERR..probably around 50 boards in my parts bin. The funny part - sitting here fixing the circuit board for a gabe the lamp lighter from 2000....couldn't find a board.
Frankly, No more engines for me! Doctor "L" re- enlightened me ....
The only thing I wish I would have filled up on is cruise M's. Didn't get to do one of those upgrades until I picked up a set of scale f3's for 200.00 with the lurching issue.
Also, 'L" did not really push the upgrades...
So you’ve bought 50 Boards from ERR?
Matt Makens posted:So you’ve bought 50 Boards from ERR?
easily- not directly - some at York - some through dealers yes easily
shawn posted:Matt Makens posted:So you’ve bought 50 Boards from ERR?
easily- not directly - some at York - some through dealers yes easily....the funny part is ..just put cruise and f3 sounds in a chuffington engine. Chuffy my get a operation some day
and what does that really have to do with this issue of supply - if they are available for second party - they should be available to us - at our convenience. Why do stores stock their shelves? why did some dealers stock ERR ? Because they thought they could sell them! maybe, not today, But, tomorrow , next week or next month.
I only know of one dealer that stocks ERR boards, there’s no margin on them and where there is no margin there is no profit, where there is no profit, there is no reason to stock them.
So Lionel is obligated to manage inventory and provide support for boards they aren’t making any money on because it’s convient for you? I can work out the numbers myself and if I was them, I’d have done a similar thing.
Matt Makens posted:Shawn, how many ERR products have you bought in the last 5 yeas? You’ve been one of the most vocal people on both of the ERR threads, just how good a customer are you?
Matt,
See, I go back far enough when most everything was repairable. Do, you even have a idea the cost of the first color TV'S. A high end set a thousand. That's like 10,000 today! Ah, Companies, actually once put out schematics for circuit boards. So, lets see - the wiring diagrams are gone ---- and inherently in this hobby their are no schematics of circuit boards. So, toss in lack of parts - (EVEN ON SOME CURRENT STUFF - NOT A SPECIFIC COMPANY) I have a roll of toilet paper with a motor!
Plus, in this scale the average buyer is use to the early color TV days and testing a tube at the pharmacy. We don't come from the throw away generation! So, we probably think different!
How did Neil Young's song go? "It's better to burn out then it is to rust" YEP - Just about says it! No, parts will help the rust along!
I build and repair things for a living but I don’t do it cuz I like it or I’m obligated to do it, I do it for money. If I stop getting paid, I stop doing it. My company does not publish prints for parts or schematics for boards because that’s intellectually property and it gives us the ability to continue selling the product we paid lots of money in engineering time to design so we can sell it too our customers. Like it or not, Money is the primary motivator in this world and profits make the world go round. Don’t expect a company to do someth8ng for you because the should or you want them to, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment. If you want ERR products to continue to be available , then you should buy them.
Matt Makens posted:I only know of one dealer that stocks ERR boards, there’s no margin on them and where there is no margin there is no profit, where there is no profit, there is no reason to stock them.
So Lionel is obligated to manage inventory and provide support for boards they aren’t making any money on because it’s convient for you? I can work out the numbers myself and if I was them, I’d have done a similar thing.
I will have to bring you to Wall street with me one day! Is it only margin that determines if a dealer carry's a product? Lol, old Sam Walmart would love to talk to you about loss leaders. (Only Joking) Plus, I bet the dealers would say the trains themselves are low markup items!
The point is the average place that carry's the board is MOST Likely doing repairs??? So, having the board can be multi tiered- Upgrades, repairs and over the counter sales can be secondary.
The other sad part of this picture. It really proves the stay away from the electronics crowd right! The reason most likely thy didn't meander into digital control in the first place. Maybe, one day my engines may be back to all conventional or a simple electronic e-unit. Maybe, nothing else will be available?
Well it seems to me that there is more to this story than what meets the eye. No firm in their right mind would drop an item that doesn't cost much to manufacture and is desired by customers who wish to upgrade older versions of their products. It's an easy sell. What you do not know is the true underlying reason, it could be many things, from being held hostage by the manufacture of the board or components to profit margins not being high enough. It could also be that Lionel has something else in store for upgrading older engines.
With respect to Atlas and 3rd Rail, its quite possible they have a long term contract that they need to abide by until such time it expires. It's not unheard of companies dropping a line or product keep some manufacturing it for firms that have contracts with them.
Several years ago, when MTH came out with PS3, (I believe), and stated it was not backwards compatible with PS1 and PS2 there was a huge stink on this site about it. Many proclaimed they'd never purchase another MTH product again. However MTH is still here today and they are offering a better system(s) as well.
We must simply wait and see what develops, because no matter how much you scream or holler, the current owners are going to do what they feel is BEST for their company. No one is going to listen to some hacks on this forum when they are dealing with huge capital investments. They have a business to run and will run it accordingly.
This is not to say that you may not have caught their attention, and as a good will gesture trying to work something out. But in the end no matter what may come, we have to learn to accept their decision and try to find other means to get older products upgraded should ERR not be available.
And all the dealers I have bought from have empty shelves. Isn't that the issue, here? At present the availability of the ERR products we most wish to acquire are NOT there and it was announced they would not be again. So, the cause of the uproar that has gotten some attention. I have upgraded over twenty engines with ERR, all mine own and I do not perform upgrades for others. My biggest constraint is time to dedicate while taking care of all else in animals, property, etc. No complaining, but who ever said retirement gave you more time to do what you want to? LOL!!!! I have installed all the ERR products I have had, finishing up my former PS1 Big Boy, at present, with many upgrades. Yes, have additional engines in line for transformation, both DC and AC. But, they are on hold and only ERR left in my bin is the Cruise M I received from Ken in March. Almost tempted to offer a swap of the Cruise M for two AC/DC Commanders if such would be possible. I can always add Cruise later, if again offered available. But, in mean time I can have a couple more CC/TMCC engines marked off my list. Yes, I could have, should have, would have purchased more ERR when it was easily available. But, who among us are in same boat? So... suppose it is a waiting game between "L" and those who support their bottom line.
Jesse TCA
I wouldn’t mind going to conventional if someone could offer an inexpensive board giving cruise control. To me cruise is the ultimate. Just think, electronic E unit with cruise.
Matt Makens posted:I build and repair things for a living but I don’t do it cuz I like it or I’m obligated to do it, I do it for money. If I stop getting paid, I stop doing it. My company does not publish prints for parts or schematics for boards because that’s intellectually property and it gives us the ability to continue selling the product we paid lots of money in engineering time to design so we can sell it too our customers. Like it or not, Money is the primary motivator in this world and profits make the world go round. Don’t expect a company to do someth8ng for you because the should or you want them to, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment. If you want ERR products to continue to be available , then you should buy them.
I didn't say why they don't provide prints. I'm only saying at one time they were available. The intellectually garbage came in with the throw away generation. Lol, half of the circuits in the old days were right out of the Motorola book.
Geez, we would probably be half way in the current state of technology, if reverse Engineering didn't occur.
Well, A Company can have a product and keep it's price low to make it attractive. Assuming, it may cause major demand at some point in the future. I think a car rebate would apply? Nassau Hobbies , offering another low price?
See, Matt - that is where we disagree! It is not all money! It is pride, enjoying your job, creating a quality product
or providing a service. In doing so making enough profit to pay for food, shelter and warmth. If millions are made in the process. ..that's ok, too. I've made a lot of money with those principles. I'm hope I will die with the most trains!
Anyway, They do not have to offer the boards. They don't even have to put wheels on the trains!
I assume Lionel has in it's employment marketing specialist! So, As you conveyed money, is the only reason to do things. Here's some "free information" for the marketing people. Hopefully, it help's the "team" come to a conclusion as to the products to provide to their buying public in general.
If it doesn't include a upgrade path. That is their " free" choice. It will then be my "free" choice to stop buying their product.
In a world that is only about "money" there's a lot of free things.....
If I lived life like it is all about money. I wouldn't be buying toy trains. My toy money could be invested yielding more money....right?
gunrunnerjohn posted:Landsteiner posted:If you've listened to Howard, Ryan and Dave's podcasts with Derek you know these folks have good intentions and are much smarter than many of us, in my opinion.
Obviously speaking for yourself here.
Geez, John! That one is worth a steak dinner at the next york! Lol!
It would be interesting to hear who the party is that would take over selling ERR kits to individuals. Odd that it is announced that ERRs kits would be no longer sold, but Atlas and 3rd Rail would be supplied. So will they also be supplied with extras for replacement or repairs? If so, why cut out another path of profit by cutting individual consumers from that path?
I'm sure with Atlas, 3rd Rail and individual buyers of the product would must still be a profit maker for Lionel, otherwise why continue to produce them, rather then have Atlas and 3rd Rail use their Legacy system, possible at a reduced cost because ERR are no longer viable?
Odd a 3rd party was found so quickly and nothing further heard. I hope we aren't being just given the run-a-round?
I still have faith in Lionel, but its being strained sorry to say.
shawn posted:Matt Makens posted:So you’ve bought 50 Boards from ERR?
easily- not directly - some at York - some through dealers yes easily
I don't know about shawn, but I've done more way more than 50 upgrades, so I'd have to say I have easily bought way more than that. I currently have several thousand dollars in ERR inventory, so I'm not part of the problem, I'm part of the solution.
Bring on the Cruise Commanders, I need more!
shawn posted:Matt Makens posted:Shawn, how many ERR products have you bought in the last 5 yeas? You’ve been one of the most vocal people on both of the ERR threads, just how good a customer are yo Have many sitting in a box right in front of me? Plus, Motor encoders by the score! Sound cards , Power Supply's AC REG'S. Smoke Units. chuff switches , LCRU's LCRU2 , r2lc's
see, I knew this was coming. Same ,with postwar parts TMCC modular boards. Boxes of stuff.... I stopped buying engines and became a parts buyer. If I do buy a engine. I order the parts I think might break. Battery covers ,pilots , etc. I have parts coming out of the.....motor encoders , sound board, sound power supply's. Motherboards..the mother load. .As for ERR..probably around 50 boards in my parts bin. The funny part - sitting here fixing the circuit board for a gabe the lamp lighter from 2000....couldn't find a board.
Frankly, No more engines for me! Doctor "L" re- enlightened me ....
The only thing I wish I would have filled up on is cruise M's. Didn't get to do one of those upgrades until I picked up a set of scale f3's for 200.00 with the lurching issue.
Also, 'L" did not really push the upgrades..
Shawn,
If the ERR Cruise had been plug and play the demand would have been in the thousands more. Even soldering one wire to a circuit board or pin may be too difficult for many. (Does anyone know why it requires any soldering too install?) A plug in board for Proto1 into 100 speed step TMCC would have been another multi thousands of units ERR seller.
Yep! I think digital dynamics had something near the end that tmcc'd proto1..it,was called the equalizer.
Both DD and TAS had PS/1 upgrade TMCC packages. Neither had cruise, one of the things that really would have made a difference. The TAS product was the UCUB and UCUB2.
