UP 4014 Restoration/844 Trip

Perhaps our forum should have two separate topic threads that remain open for the duration of the 4014 project. One for the Ed Dickens haters ..... and one for everyone else.

Then ...  the only personal attacks will be directed toward Ed, and the threads would not have to be closed by the moderators.

I would really enjoy following the 4014 project, and would like to hear additional information from objective sources here on OGR. Other websites are already knee deep in anti-Dickens/UPSteam/4014 posts.

I'm not even much of a railfan .... I just enjoy running model trains .... that's why I buy OGR magazine. But, a major rebuilding of a machine such as a "BigBoy" has really sparked my interest.

Yes there is a commonality of parts between the 3985 and the 4014.  

This is from the Union Pacific's home page.  The comparison of size is very interesting,

To learn more about the Union Pacific 4014, and the history. Click here. 

Gary

N&W Class J posted:

Yes there is a commonality of parts between the 3985 and the 4014.  

so 3985 will be back on the rails...at least parts of it.....

To me, a "new" train sets of the two that met in 1869, under STEAM, next to a modern AC Diesel with a stack train would be a better display for the event.   The true THEN and NOW1

OGR Webmaster posted:

Scher - I think Rich's "Yawn" is the useless banter we will have to endear...

Not quite. The "yawn" indicates my complete lack of interest in the 4014 project.

Rich, would you care to state why you have a lack of interest in the 4014?

Matt01 posted:

Perhaps our forum should have two separate topic threads that remain open for the duration of the 4014 project. One for the Ed Dickens haters ..... and one for everyone else.

Then ...  the only personal attacks will be directed toward Ed, and the threads would not have to be closed by the moderators.

I would really enjoy following the 4014 project, and would like to hear additional information from objective sources here on OGR. Other websites are already knee deep in anti-Dickens/UPSteam/4014 posts.

Hold on there Matt,

I have followed the controversy surrounding the UP steam program over these last several years.  After watching a number of videos of Ed Dickens speaking to the public and reading comments from several people who have operated and maintained other steam locomotives I understand why Dickens is himself such a controversial figure.

1.  The 844's boiler received a 1472 operating day/15 year inspection in 2005.  Dickens was appointed manager of the UP Steam program in 2010 and undertook at least two significant changes in operating practices with 844.  He made extensive use of diesel fuel on at least one trip instead of heavy fuel oil.  He also changed water treatment, blowdown and and boiler washing practices.  Since then the 844 has received firebox repairs twice, most recently as part of a 1472 day/15 year inspection that began about 7 years early.  The most commonly believed explanation for the need for boiler repairs to 844 are uneven heating from the use of diesel fuel and corrosion and uneven heating from poor water treatment, blow down and boiler washing practices.

2.  Prior to 2010 the UP steam program formally and informally shared technical information with the rest of the steam community.  They not only shared what they did that worked well but what they did that did not work, why they believed it failed and what others could do to avoid similar problems.  The UP steam program was open to technical advice from others.  Since 2010 that two way flow of information with the steam community has largely stopped.

3.  Dickens has made numerous public statements blaming the need for repairs to 844 on shoddy work by his predecessors.  Many rail fans might not understand what Dickens is saying when he points an accusatory finger at others but those who operated and maintained the 844 and other steam locomotives sure get it.  And they sure don't like being blamed for what they believe are the effects of Dickens poor practices and closed attitude toward technical information. 

I believe that the reason Dickens is such a controversial figure is that he is slow to give or take technical advice but quick to blame those who successfully operated 844 for decades for the recent need for repeated extensive repairs.

Don't those who dislike being blamed for the mistakes of a guy who won't take well informed advice deserve to be called something better than "haters"?

I would like to see the 765 on the CSX River Line - beautiful territory especially in the summer - up through NJ through Bergenfield, Cresskill, Harrington Park, Norwood then  in to NY through Tappan, Orangeburg, etc, along the Hudson River past West  Point and up to Selkirk. That would be a nice trip.

PSU1980 posted:

I would like to see the 765 on the CSX River Line - beautiful territory especially in the summer - up through NJ through Bergenfield, Cresskill, Harrington Park, Norwood then  in to NY through Tappan, Orangeburg, etc, along the Hudson River past West  Point and up to Selkirk. That would be a nice trip.

Okay?? 

I for one don't give much of a flying fart about talk when it comes to any restoration or project. Let's see some work being done. Then I'll show some enthusiasm.

Ted Hikel posted:

Matt01 posted:

Perhaps our forum should have two separate topic threads that remain open for the duration of the 4014 project. One for the Ed Dickens haters ..... and one for everyone else.

Then ...  the only personal attacks will be directed toward Ed, and the threads would not have to be closed by the moderators.

I would really enjoy following the 4014 project, and would like to hear additional information from objective sources here on OGR. Other websites are already knee deep in anti-Dickens/UPSteam/4014 posts.

Hold on there Matt,

I have followed the controversy surrounding the UP steam program over these last several years.  After watching a number of videos of Ed Dickens speaking to the public and reading comments from several people who have operated and maintained other steam locomotives I understand why Dickens is himself such a controversial figure.

1.  The 844's boiler received a 1472 operating day/15 year inspection in 2005.  Dickens was appointed manager of the UP Steam program in 2010 and undertook at least two significant changes in operating practices with 844.  He made extensive use of diesel fuel on at least one trip instead of heavy fuel oil.  He also changed water treatment, blowdown and and boiler washing practices.  Since then the 844 has received firebox repairs twice, most recently as part of a 1472 day/15 year inspection that began about 7 years early.  The most commonly believed explanation for the need for boiler repairs to 844 are uneven heating from the use of diesel fuel and corrosion and uneven heating from poor water treatment, blow down and boiler washing practices.

2.  Prior to 2010 the UP steam program formally and informally shared technical information with the rest of the steam community.  They not only shared what they did that worked well but what they did that did not work, why they believed it failed and what others could do to avoid similar problems.  The UP steam program was open to technical advice from others.  Since 2010 that two way flow of information with the steam community has largely stopped.

3.  Dickens has made numerous public statements blaming the need for repairs to 844 on shoddy work by his predecessors.  Many rail fans might not understand what Dickens is saying when he points an accusatory finger at others but those who operated and maintained the 844 and other steam locomotives sure get it.  And they sure don't like being blamed for what they believe are the effects of Dickens poor practices and closed attitude toward technical information. 

I believe that the reason Dickens is such a controversial figure is that he is slow to give or take technical advice but quick to blame those who successfully operated 844 for decades for the recent need for repeated extensive repairs.

Don't those who dislike being blamed for the mistakes of a guy who won't take well informed advice deserve to be called something better than "haters"?

And don't forget that 3985 COULD have been used up until 2013?? but instead it was pushed back into a corner of the roundhouse and orphaned like a unwanted child. 

bigdodgetrain posted:

Rich, would you care to state why you have a lack of interest in the 4014?

No.

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Apparently nobody anymore. They were previously under the responsibility of the Cheyenne Steam Crew, including the big rotary snow plow. But nobody on the current steam crew knows anything about the snow plow, nor the 6936, nor the A-B-A Executive E units, nor even the SW10 shop switcher (which has been out of service for some 3 or 4 years).

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Apparently nobody anymore. They were previously under the responsibility of the Cheyenne Steam Crew, including the big rotary snow plow. But nobody on the current steam crew knows anything about the snow plow, nor the 6936, nor the A-B-A Executive E units, nor even the SW10 shop switcher (which has been out of service for some 3 or 4 years).

ER, the E's and the 6936 are DIESELS!

OGR Webmaster posted:

J Daddy posted:

At least the NS has a steam program... the CSX needs to take note!

NS does not have a steam program. It ended in 2014.

J Daddy posted:

Scher - I think Rich's "Yawn" is the useless banter we will have to endear...

Not quite. The "yawn" indicates my complete lack of interest in the 4014 project.

p51 posted:

...As mentioned in previous threads (all of which got locked eventually, as will this sooner or later...

It will stay open as long as the discussion remains civil. That's in YOUR hands, not mine. If the discussion degenerates into name-calling, as the other UP threads have done, then yes, it will be locked.

Then you can start it all over again.

Rich-

The NS still supports the 765 and the 611 and lets them travel their rails,  without the NS they would be land locked.

I am sure you will see no support from CSX on their rails.

I am surprised at your "Lack of Interest" in the 4014. It will be the biggest thing that will hit the nation on rails.

I always considered you to be the ambassador of revived historical steam locomotives... now I will have to rethink that.

J Daddy posted:

The NS still supports the 765 and the 611 and lets them travel their rails,  without the NS they would be land locked...

...I am surprised at your "Lack of Interest" in the 4014. It will be the biggest thing that will hit the nation on rails.

I always considered you to be the ambassador of revived historical steam locomotives... now I will have to rethink that.

We (NKP 765) have a great working relationship with Norfolk Southern.  My comment was simply to correct your statement that NS has a steam program. They do not have a corporate steam program at this time.

Rethink what you must. I simply have no interest in seeing the 4014.

If it was up to the UP shareholders there would be no steam program at all. The shareholders are getting more and more votes each year to scrap the whole thing so just be glad upper management is willing to spend dollars to keep the steam program going. 

It is only a matter of time before the steam program is no more. 

The rotary, e units and 6936 are part of the heritage units and the steam shop. Ed and his crew are responsible to maintain and operate the rotary if and when it's needed. As for recent steam shop history without getting anyones glasses all steamed up there are always two sides to every story and we have been there done that heard that already. Time to move on, watch 4014, 844 and see what happens. 

Personally, I would like to see the 3985 back on the rails before they take on the 4014 project.

That there are people (I never named Rich originally in this post, but you'll see he later quotes this post by saying I did name him, then deleted every post I made pointing out his error) who'd rather not see a Big Boy returned to steam, among supposed train fans, simply staggers the imagination.

I can only assume that some hate Ed SO much that  they'd gleefully deny the rest of us the chance of seeing a 4000 under steam, just to prove themselves right in their hate for the guy.

Frankly, I simply do not care what has happened already. He could be 100% guilty of everything that the usual suspects have accused him of. I just want to see 4014 under steam.

How any train fan wouldn't want the same result speaks for some people's downright hysterical hatred for one guy...

Lee, it's not fair to make the assumption that hate alone is the reason Rich doesn't care for a Big Boy.

I'm a steam guy through and through, but guess what? There are simply some steam locomotives I wouldn't have any interest in seeing returned to steam. That ugly POS CO H-6 Allegheny is one that comes to mind for me, although I know it has legions of fans. I'm just not one of them.

Maybe Rich just has no affection for the Big Boy, and it has nothing to do with ED?

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Apparently nobody anymore. They were previously under the responsibility of the Cheyenne Steam Crew, including the big rotary snow plow. But nobody on the current steam crew knows anything about the snow plow, nor the 6936, nor the A-B-A Executive E units, nor even the SW10 shop switcher (which has been out of service for some 3 or 4 years).

Now, to me, dive horns should be going off, because:

1.  Is this an issue with just the Steam Team?

2.  Is this a problem which those who are in the level of management just above the Steam Team?

3.  Is there a major problem within UP as a whole?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Apparently nobody anymore. They were previously under the responsibility of the Cheyenne Steam Crew, including the big rotary snow plow. But nobody on the current steam crew knows anything about the snow plow, nor the 6936, nor the A-B-A Executive E units, nor even the SW10 shop switcher (which has been out of service for some 3 or 4 years).

Now, to me, dive horns should be going off, because:

1.  Is this an issue with just the Steam Team?

2.  Is this a problem which those who are in the level of management just above the Steam Team?

3.  Is there a major problem within UP as a whole?

 

Good questions....  When you hire on and qualify as a Engineman or Conductor the only think you can count on is your  Seniority date and your union.  This  lets you know where you stand for the rest of your railroad career. The senior man get the job, even though he may not be the best.  Even if one is promoted to a company official  he still has his conductor or engineman  rights on the seniority list. If things don't work out as an company official he can go back to his old job.  Was Steve Lee   fired?  I doubt it.  I'm sure he must have been a qualified engineman. Maybe he  just  chose to take his pension... I don't know.

Most assignments come up for bid ever so often and the senior man gets the job. 

Where does  the UP former & present steam crew fit in??? Did they pay their dues working a spare board or  freight or pass assignments  for years gaining important train handling  experience ??.

Gregg posted:

Good questions....  When you hire on and qualify as a Engineman or Conductor the only think you can count on is your  Seniority date and your union.  This  lets you know where you stand for the rest of your railroad career. The senior man get the job, even though he may not be the best.  Even if one is promoted to a company official  he still has his conductor or engineman  rights on the seniority list. If things don't work out as an company official he can go back to his old job.  Was Steve Lee   fired? 

No. In April of 2010, Steve was promoted to Superintendent of Heritage Fleet Operations, which left the Manager of the Steam Shop position open. The current manager was brought back, from his job as Engineer in the Denver Pool, to be the manager.

I doubt it.  I'm sure he must have been a qualified engineman.

Yes, Steve Lee was a "qualified Engineer" while on the Rock Island RR, prior to his coming to work for the UP as Road Foreman of Engines, out of Cheyenne, WY.

Maybe he  just  chose to take his pension... I don't know.

Yes, Steve retired from his Superintendent position, at the end of December 2010.

Most assignments come up for bid ever so often and the senior man gets the job. 

You are of course referring to Operating Department, like Engineers, Conductors, Brakemen, etc..

Where does  the UP former & present steam crew fit in???

Which members? The "Operating Dept." members, or the "Mechanical Dept". members?

Did they pay their dues working a spare board or  freight or pass assignments  for years gaining important train handling  experience ??.

Very definitely yes, for the "Operating Dept." crew members. The "Mechanical Dept." members were either Journeymen Machinists, Pipefitters, Boilermakers, Welders, Carmen, and/or Electricians.

 

 

 

 

 

smd4 posted:

....... I'm a steam guy through and through, but guess what? There are simply some steam locomotives I wouldn't have any interest in seeing returned to steam. That ugly POS CO H-6 Allegheny is one that comes to mind for me, although I know it has legions of fans. I'm just not one of them.

Maybe Rich just has no affection for the Big Boy, and it has nothing to do with ED?

Boy .... that stuff goes right over my head. lol

"That ugly POS CO H-6 Allegheny" ......  You guys see things that I don't. I just think of the work it was able to do. You feel that it could have been better designed?

"POS" .... as in "piece of s*** ? "  Do you say that because you feel that it is so ugly? Or, because the locomotive did not perform as you feel it should have? And, that's why Rich does not like the 4014?

I don't understand what's not to like .... in any of these engines.

I know I'm a pretty ugly guy .... I accept it. I didn't realize that people hated me for it.  

Matt Ryan

The assumption of hate is an awful big step.  I think it would be cool to see the 4014 under steam.  However, it so many ways it doesn't make sense when compared to the 3985.  The BB is only slightly more impressive in only a few ways over a challenger.  Size and overall HP and tractive effort is it.  Aesthetically, I find the Challengers much more appealing to the eye.  The Challengers were also much more versatile and the 3985 can go many more places than 4014 will be able to.  The 3985 was also operationally sound and had been that way for 30 years.  To relegate it to nothingness or a donor is spitting in the face of the original all volunteer group who got her running.  I can tell you from standing next to 3985 that at no point did I sit around and think "geez, it's okay but I sure wish it was a BB".

To me the 4014 idea when looking at hard facts with no bias or spin just doesn't make since.  This isn't hate, this is just honesty based upon facts.  The 4014 has a mountain of work to get it ready, and that's just on the known issues.  Things like this always have unknowns.  My other concern, highlighting an earlier post, is how long will the stockholders tolerate it?  If the momentum builds, this could be the sounding of the death knell on the UP steam program.

Just my opinion but, I think both SMD4 and MATT01 need to be aware that the C&O Allegheny was/is a class "H-8", while the C&O "H-6" is the 2-6-6-2 locomotive currently being restored/rebuilt at the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad.

As far as "ugly",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that comes down to personal opinion.

Matt01 posted:

 You feel that it could have been better designed?

I'm sure it was a fine performer. Just butt ugly.

"POS" .... as in "piece of s*** ? "  Do you say that because you feel that it is so ugly?

Yep. See above.

Or, because the locomotive did not perform as you feel it should have? 

Again, see above.

And, that's why Rich does not like the 4014?

I don't know. Only offering it as an alternate reason to the reason that he "hates ED."

I don't understand what's not to like .... in any of these engines.

That's fine.

I know I'm a pretty ugly guy .... I accept it. I didn't realize that people hated me for it.  

Not sure where that came from...

 

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I think both SMD4 and MATT01 need to be aware that the C&O Allegheny was/is a class "H-8", while the C&O "H-6" is the 2-6-6-2 locomotive currently being restored/rebuilt at the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad.

As far as "ugly",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that comes down to personal opinion.

Thanks Hot. H-8.

It's still ugly.

p51 posted:

That there are people who'd rather not see a Big Boy returned to steam, among supposed train fans, simply staggers the imagination.

I can only assume that some hate Ed SO much that  they'd gleefully deny the rest of us the chance of seeing a 4000 under steam, just to prove themselves right in their hate for the guy.

So now you can read my mind? Wow. You are indeed a piece of work.  

I don't hate Ed. I've never met the man. However, I am concerned that he has turned his back on the rest of the steam locomotive community around the world.

When working together, things have happened in our industry that have mutually benefited ALL of us who operate big steam locomotives. The new CFR230 rules for steam locomotive boilers are a perfect example. They are the result of several big steam locomotive operators working together with the FRA to achieve a goal that was mutually beneficial to all of us. Former UP steam boss Steve Lee was one of the leaders of that effort.

Another example...a few years ago the main line steam loco industry was struggling to find a new source for pin grease for the rods. Texaco High-Tek 8, which we had used for decades, was no longer available. And even though Texaco had given us the formula for it, no one would make it because it was a real witches brew and extremely volatile at certain points in the distillation process. The other greases being promoted at the time for use in this application simply were not working. Then a couple of old heads in the industry got together and figured out a solution. They shared that solution with the rest of us. The result is that we ALL now have a good source of pin grease that WORKS. No more hot pins and damaged rod brasses. I would not be surprised if this grease is being used on the 844's rods.

However, in trying to re-invent the wheel and claim that he knows better than 200 years of accumulated, real-world steam locomotive experience, Ed has done some potentially dangerous things to the 844 that could jeopardize all steam locomotive operators. That concerns me greatly. And that's a big reason why I don't have any interest in seeing the Big Boy. I cannot support someone whom I think has done harm to our industry.

No man is an island...

While I personally am excited to have a 4000 in steam I would prefer to have the 3985 back in stead.  Why?  Well because she was restored by UP employees on their own time, she is 1 of the 2 remaining with the 3977 being the other, she can as previously stated traverse more of the system then the 4014 and in terms of looks she is a better looking locomotive to my eyes.  Not to mention she would require far less time and money to put back out on the rails.  While my favorite scenario would be to have all 3 operating, the 844, 3985 and the 4014 but I don't see how 8 or 10 guys could maintain such a fleet, and operate excursion (s).  

     Now maybe some do "hate Ed"  but I think the bigger picture here is the steam industry as a whole, they are concerned at what appears to be happening in Cheyenne.  There is a lot at stake here if something goes wrong and I can understand the concern being shown by those groups and people that have been in this industry for a long time and have followed the procedures that have been proven over time.  

I just can't understand it. Other than building a new NYC Hudson, this is THE thing you'd hear train fans talking about during, "wouldn't it be cool if..." discussions. And now that it looks like it could be happening, I see so many people who don't want it to happen at all, or for the work to go to 3985 instead.

This is one of those things that if you could take any train fan from, say, the 1990s and bring them forward in time to show them all that has happened to date and the giant, "Meh" that has come from more train fans than I ever thought possible on getting a 4000 under steam, the 90s guy would probably have a stroke from how implausible it seemed.

It's not just here, I see it on other forums, too. And yes, those threads are getting locked on other forums, too. I thought such a discussion could never get as ugly as the PRR 1361 debacle but I was very wrong about that.

The others such as myself have stated very good reasons based upon fact as to why 3985 over 4014.  It's not that I don't want to see it, it's just that it makes no sense.  As said, at cost estimates topping 5 million easily and providing zero financial benefit to the bottom line and the shareholders, this could easily kill the UP steam program for good.  Easy to say "I want BB" when you're not the one footing the bill.

I have just deleted several posts in this thread. The deleted posts are perfect examples of why previous threads like this have gotten locked. And ironically, several of the the posts I had to delete were made by the same person who has accused me of locking these threads too often in the past.

Keep it ON TOPIC without PERSONAL ATTACKS and we'll be fine. Otherwise I will continue to do micro-surgery on this thread deleting individual posts until it gets to be too much work. Then I'll ban the troublesome poster(s) and eliminate the problem.

p51 posted:

I just can't understand it. Other than building a new NYC Hudson, this is THE thing you'd hear train fans talking about during, "wouldn't it be cool if..." discussions.

Well, for me, I've never been a "UP guy." Never really cared for the look of their motive power. That said, I agree that 3985 was more aesthetically pleasing to my eyes than the Big Boy - better balanced and not as long and lanky. Besides, since you're going to be pulling passenger trains, wouldn't you rather pull it with passenger power, and not freight power?

I really don't care one way or the other which one they restore, but don't let that get in the way of your excitement.

I as stated AM excited to see a 4000 in steam, but I don't (personally) want to see it happen at the expense of the 3985.  To me the 3985 represented the working men/women of the UP because of how she came back to life, via these guys volunteering their time before/after working their regular positions....that to me really says something.  Maybe all this is is just what you said.....that you don't understand.  And I don't mean that in any way to be disrespectful...not at all, I simply mean that we all can't understand or wrap out heads around others personal likes/dislikes view points ect...we all feel how we feel and that is ok.  Now I'm very happy to see the 4014 come back but saddened to see the 3985 banished to the roundhouse.

But hey I prefer Corsairs to Mustangs....B-17's to B-24's and I would have voted for Ike! 

Fortunately for the UP 4014 fans none of us gets to vote. UP wants a Big Boy. UP gets a Big Boy. Time to sit back or shine up your 4014 chase vehicle, invest in a new video camera and wait....

Tranz4mr posted:

Fortunately for the UP 4014 fans none of us gets to vote. UP wants a Big Boy. UP gets a Big Boy. Time to sit back or shine up your 4014 chase vehicle, invest in a new video camera and wait....

If the 4014 just happens to be crossing York Road in Elmhurst one fine day, I'll be more than glad to pull out my cell phone an snap a picture of it, but personally I'm quite happy with the Pentrex video's of when the Big Boys did the REAL work they were designed for.

Rusty

  Why should I invest in a new camera when I know Kent will post a quality video when that time comes ?

I ordered two DVD videos last week and they both came today.  "Big Boy 4014" by Pentrex and "Big Boy - On The Road To Restoration"  by Trains Magazine. The next day my grandsons are over, we will watch these together. I also order several books from my Public Library and they are on back order.  Some other Railfan has them checked out.

Click on photo to enlarge.

Gary - Railfan