sigh
It doesn't really matter to me one way or another as to what UP steam runs or not. On another forum I thought a fellow summed it all up very well last week with a statement that went something like this.."The UP Steam program has become nothing more than a playtoy for the UP senior administration upper echelon in Omaha".
Restoring the Big Boy to steam will be a mile post event. There will be nothing bigger in the next 20 years... maybe nothing bigger that I will see in my life time. Its too bad Ego's have to get caught into the mix... but so be it. I will still make the trip to see it in action.
Nothing will take away from this event... Unless those guys get the T-1 done soon. 
CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:Why should I invest in a new camera when I know Kent will post a quality video when that time comes ?
So your driving while I work the hi def video? Cool!
My wife pulled out some photos (prints, not digital .. lol) of my little boys and me standing in front of the BigBoy at Steamtown ... many, many years ago.
We're going to do a whole family trip thing to Wyoming with our now-grown sons .... when 4014 is running.
So ... UP Steam Shop ..... or UP Management .... or the "present steam shop manager" ..... or whoever ..... good luck on this project and thanks for taking the bull by the horns and doing it.
This is pretty cool!
Tranz4mr posted:CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:Why should I invest in a new camera when I know Kent will post a quality video when that time comes ?
So your driving while I work the hi def video? Cool!
I should have my Indian Motorcycle with sidecar by then. Sure !
J Daddy posted:Restoring the Big Boy to steam will be a mile post event. There will be nothing bigger in the next 20 years... maybe nothing bigger that I will see in my life time.
It's hard to disagree with you there!
I have pals in England, Germany and one in Australia who all plan on being trackside the first time 4014 pulls an official trip.
OK, here is the BIG question! Where on the UP system TODAY can a BB go? I would think there would be issues with it where there are two tracks in curves.
Or, where all can the 3985 go that the 4014 cannot.
TexasSP posted:Or, where all can the 3985 go that the 4014 cannot.
Well, 3985 actually went to places that FEF-3 844 couldn't go.
Hot Water posted:TexasSP posted:Or, where all can the 3985 go that the 4014 cannot.
Well, 3985 actually went to places that FEF-3 844 couldn't go.
Understand, and appreciate the info. I am just curious what major areas this would restrict access to?
It's just fascinating to me that so many are so ra ra ra over the 4014 they can't see (don't want to see) all the issues surrounding this.
On another note, is 4449 able to go more places than 844, less, or the same. I know both being northern class locos they are similar, wheel configuration and all, just don't know on the flip side how different they are.
I've read elsewhere that the curves on the UP are broader than they were back when Steve Lee said we'd never see a 4000 under steam, due to much longer locomotives and cars than they had years ago.
Jack, I guess you'd be able to say more about that, as I don't know this for sure.
Rusty Traque posted:If the 4014 just happens to be crossing York Road in Elmhurst one fine day, I'll be more than glad to pull out my cell phone an snap a picture of it, but personally I'm quite happy with the Pentrex video's of when the Big Boys did the REAL work they were designed for.Rusty
I grew up in the Chicago area, and your comment just reminded of a certain Chevy dealer at the corner of York and Roosevelt Rd.
It will be interesting to see the 4014 run if they get it restored, though to most folks seeing the 3985 operate would be fine. Aesthetically not sure a Big Boy is the most visually pleasing locomotive ever built either. On a model railroad that huge boiler over hang atrocious. We had a Two Tone Gray 4-8-4 running on a layout in public one day and a father leaned in and asked if it was the UP Challenger. When we explained it was a Northern he said the size and length of it got him confused. Never realized it wasn't articulated until we pointed it out to him. Doubt seeing the 4014 run versus the 3985 would make any difference to him or his family.
I wonder what the difference in clearance is between the Challenger & Big Boy when the boiler sticks out on curves. . On double track it may be a concern or even on single track in rock cuts however I bet UP has the clearance right down to the 1/4 inch figured out on all their main line tracks. It'll be tracks other than the main track that might pose a problem.
Maybe on double track they will treat the big boy as a dimensional load with special handling instructions .(single track movement only so the crew would have to get authority for both main line tracks even though they're only using one.) Maybe nothing is required? anyone in the know?
J Daddy posted:Restoring the Big Boy to steam will be a mile post event. There will be nothing bigger in the next 20 years... maybe nothing bigger that I will see in my life time. Its too bad Ego's have to get caught into the mix... but so be it. I will still make the trip to see it in action.
Nothing will take away from this event... Unless those guys get the T-1 done soon.
I have to agree what a great thing to see! I don't care if ED Dickens doesn't play well with all the other know it alls in the steam world! Who cares! At least Ed can be able to say he restored not only the 844 but, a Big Boy as well! That's quite an accomplishment that we all get to Benefit from! Even this hobby!
And I wonder how many children will ask while seeing a UP steamer why the engine is not painted BLUE, with a big Number 1!
The biggest issue that I can think of, is the same for all 3 classes of engines. The Centipede tender causes more issues than the driver wheelbase. 4449 can probably go more places than 844 just for this reason alone.
wasn't the route the bigboy took from Los Angeles to Wyoming over track that some say it could not negotiate ? yet it did negotiate it very well.
Hotwater, may have better info, but I believe that the Big Boys were cleared into LA, but, I don't believe that they ever went there. The same with Pocatello, ID, I believe that was another route that they were cleared for, but never ran.
I have no idea if there have been any track or clearance changes since then, that may effect where they once were cleared for, restricting them now.
Doug
Just waisted time reading this thread and learning nothing. The hate ed deal will always be discussed and information comes best from UP. 4014 is getting more attention than any other engine in the US and that bothers many. The wheel base of 4014,s drivers is less than 844 so 4014 can go where 844 went.
bigdodgetrain posted:wasn't the route the bigboy took from Los Angeles to Wyoming over track that some say it could not negotiate ? yet it did negotiate it very well.
Who said that? How do you think the 4014 got to the Pomona museum in the early 60s in the first place? Pretty dang sure it took the same route that it took going back to Cheyenne a couple years ago.
ironlake2 posted:Just waisted time reading this thread and learning nothing. The hate ed deal will always be discussed and information comes best from UP. 4014 is getting more attention than any other engine in the US and that bothers many. The wheel base of 4014,s drivers is less than 844 so 4014 can go where 844 went.
Another that Hotwater, will be able to comment on with more authority, but it is NOT just the drivers wheelbase, that is the issue, but also the boiler swing out in curves, that can cause problems with the 4014. 3985, does have boiler swing clearance issues too, but not as severe as the 4014.
Since steam was retired in 1959, (IIRC, the last Big Boy revenue run was July 21, 1959) many curve alignments and signal/other clearance measurements have been reduced, as improvements were made, and diesels not needing as generous clearances as articulated steam locomotives. There are now places that a Big Boy was cleared to operate in the past, that no longer have adequate clearances for a Big Boy, to operate through today.
Doug
OK, she did go home from LA, but there is one problem with that route, and some in WY. It runs through some of the least populated parts of the UP system! Plus, it might have to run at very low speed to get though. Sure, other BB's went to others places for preservation, BUT NOT UNDER STEAM AT SPEED!
I wouldn't worry about the rigid wheelbase as much as the boiler swing and the tender. But I'm sure the UP knows it's track clearances and alignments ect.....it will be understood /known/figured out by the time they light a fire in the 4014.
N&W Class J posted:I wouldn't worry about the rigid wheelbase as much as the boiler swing and the tender. But I'm sure the UP knows it's track clearances and alignments ect.....it will be understood /known/figured out by the time they light a fire in the 4014.
Exactly. Rigid wheelbase should be less than 844 and larger than 3985. I'm wondering how they will repair the roughly repaired/welded pilot (cow catcher)
challenger3980 posted:ironlake2 posted:Just waisted time reading this thread and learning nothing. The hate ed deal will always be discussed and information comes best from UP. 4014 is getting more attention than any other engine in the US and that bothers many. The wheel base of 4014,s drivers is less than 844 so 4014 can go where 844 went.
Another that Hotwater, will be able to comment on with more authority, but it is NOT just the drivers wheelbase, that is the issue, but also the boiler swing out in curves, that can cause problems with the 4014. 3985, does have boiler swing clearance issues too, but not as severe as the 4014.
Since steam was retired in 1959, (IIRC, the last Big Boy revenue run was July 21, 1959) many curve alignments and signal/other clearance measurements have been reduced, as improvements were made, and diesels not needing as generous clearances as articulated steam locomotives. There are now places that a Big Boy was cleared to operate in the past, that no longer have adequate clearances for a Big Boy, to operate through today.
Doug
Doug, I do not see where clearances have been reduced since 1959. States have minimum toe path requirements, FRA has increased minumin clearances for M of W employees, there have been line relocations, to reduce curvature and grades, longer turnouts are used to increase speeds, modern construction has eliminated many tunnels, double stack has required improving overhead clearances, pole lines are mostly gone, and steel truss bridges are being replaced with concrete structures which do not extend above the rail head. In the 1960s railroads were trying freight cars in excess of 100 foot in length. The Union Pacific uses a laser clearance car to check clearances which provides a digital out put that is used to automate checking of clearances on all their lines. My experience is that clearances have never been better.
I am not a fan of mainline steam because I do not think moden engineering departments appreciate the effect of dynamic augment, but if they are willing to take the risk, I am willing to watch. As for 4014, I will be interested to see how they handling the firing issues. In excursion service they will only need a fraction of 4014 potential. This could be a bigger problem with an oil burner than if they had stayed with coal.
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challenger3980 posted:Since steam was retired in 1959, (IIRC, the last Big Boy revenue run was July 21, 1959) many curve alignments and signal/other clearance measurements have been reduced, as improvements were made, and diesels not needing as generous clearances as articulated steam locomotives. There are now places that a Big Boy was cleared to operate in the past, that no longer have adequate clearances for a Big Boy, to operate through today.
I heard from a BNSF employee recently that many railroads, which run much longer/taller stuff than they did back when 3985 returned to steam in the 80s, have curves that are broader in yards and other 'tight' places than in years past.
I'm hardly an MOW expert, but if management in Omaha isn't wetting their pants over a 4-8-8-4 going over their line, I'm certainly not going to.
David Johnston posted:In excursion service they will only need a fraction of 4014 potential. This could be a bigger problem with an oil burner than if they had stayed with coal.
Why??
smd4 posted:David Johnston posted:In excursion service they will only need a fraction of 4014 potential. This could be a bigger problem with an oil burner than if they had stayed with coal.
Why??
The firebox temperatures react far more quickly to changes in firing rates than does a coal burner. Remember, there really is no large heat-sink of red hot coals in an oil burning firebox, only a big flame. Temperature changes occur pretty slowly with a coal burner, but not so with an oil burner. Without the proper amount of fire brick to retain heat, serious stresses can occur within the sheets & staybolts of oil burning fireboxes. In fact, back in the old days of regular mainline steam, the fireboxes of oil burning locomotives had projected life expectancies of only 10 years, while coal burning locomotives were not scheduled for firebox renewal for at least 15 years.
But why will oil firing be an issue if the engine isn't pushed to it's limit?
smd4 posted:But why will oil firing be an issue if the engine isn't pushed to it's limit?
Maybe because nobody on the current UP steam crew has any experience with a locomotive & firebox THAT BIG?
HA!
Tranz4mr postedI'm wondering how they will repair the roughly repaired/welded pilot (cow catcher)
Possibly exchange it with another on display? or re-weld and grind maybe?? Or maybe nothing???
Lee (P51), I am hardly wetting my pants over this.
David Johnston, I can't cite an exact quote or article, But to the best of my knowledge, Steve Lee had commented on the reduced clearances, and lack of turning facilities, as liabilities of operating a Big Boy.
Steve Lee, would be one that would have known, BUT, he also was no more enthusiastic about seeing a BB, restored, than Ed Dickens is about ever seeing the 3985 run again.
Another issue that Jack (Hotwater) may have information to add, I am just going off memory, and am pretty certain that it was Steve Lee, that commented on the clearances having been reduced.
I am certainly not in any need of Depends(Adult Diapers
) over the subject,
Doug
Thanks to the guys who explained why Mister Ed is not held in such high esteem by, if not his colleagues per se, but others deeply involved in steam restoration and operation. That is helpful to understand where the bad feelings come from. No man is an island. That says a lot about his management style if you read into it. I have no dog in this fight, I don't even have a dog, I have a fish tank though, but that's another story. Good to know a bit more about both sides of this story.
N&W Class J posted:Tranz4mr postedI'm wondering how they will repair the roughly repaired/welded pilot (cow catcher)
Possibly exchange it with another on display? or re-weld and grind maybe?? Or maybe nothing???
If it's easily removed I guess they arrange to swap it with a different one. If not they have a lot of grinding and welding to do.
Are there any new welding technologies that can be used on the Big Boy 4014 restoration project , that were not used on the 844 restoration project?
Gary / Rail fan
I was not aware of any controversy surrounding the restoration of Big Boy 4014 until today. I am actually quite shocked to read this thread.
How can any train guy not want to see this marvelous engine moving under it's own power? Regardless of who you like or dislike? Regardless of which railroad it comes from? Regardless of whether you think it is ugly or not? Or that Challenger 3985 is better looking? Just a few days ago I sent a picture of an operating Heisler engine to a friend of mine and commented that "I love this engine because it is so **** ugly". I love trains! Just two weeks ago, I took my youngest grandson to see Big Boy 4005. He liked it.
I am also optimistic that UP will not abandon the operation of 3985. And I look forward to the possibility of seeing three of the largest steam engines in the world operating out of the same barn.
To you guys working on 4014, I congratulate you on what you are doing and wish you the best!
