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There seems to be some controversy on the use of TVS surge protection for our trains. Here is my take on the situation.

 

Rapid voltage reduction on electromagnetic devices (devices with coils like motors or transformers) creates voltage spikes that can be twice or more of the nominal voltage. Noisy motors can also make voltage spikes (brushes on commutators). Spikes can also be introduced by lightning strikes on the power lines in the area. We regular use surge protected 120VAC power strips with surge protection built in so in most cases the power feeding our train power source is relatively clean from outside influences. But what about internal spikes in voltage. Apparently according to some who know the history of MTH’s DCS, their TIU includes TVS diodes to remove those spikes created by rapidly removing power from the system transformer. I assume Lionel does the same (??). So we are left with solenoids and accessory motors. (I will touch on the motors in the engines later) To isolate them I provide a separate power source and the AIU. The motors in the engines are controlled by a circuit board and are not directly connected to the tracks. Those of you running conventional variable AC to the tracks have the spikes problem and may well do to use TVS to suppress the spikes from the AC motors in the engines.

 

If you are using a DCS like system (MTH or Lionel) my guess is the circuit boards, if the designers followed good engineering practices, will have bypass capacitors on each and every circuit close to the circuit to filter out the spikes in the power to the circuit. TVS diodes are probably not necessary. The circuit design that controls the motor will have to include some protection from the motor generated spikes or the circuit will be short lived. No one is reporting failures like that so my guess is the circuit adequately protects the other circuits from motor spikes.

 

When it comes to suppressing errant fast spikes of voltage, the engineering rules of design dictate that you kill the spikes at their source so they don’t get broadcast as radio signals onto other nearby circuits. So any spike suppression needs to be done at the source, not every where else.

 

To re-iterate if you are using a digital control system then you are more than likely safe and probably don’t need TVS’s. But do isolate all the accessories from track power. UseTVS’s on solenoids or accessory motors to be sure. For those using classic variable AC power TVS are nice but there is little to no electronics in those old engines and there is no reason to protect what you don’t have. When operating a digital control system in conventional mode I have no idea how the circuits in the digital control system do that so I have no recommendation.

 

But if you are protecting an AC motor or solenoid from spikes using TVS’s then use them in pairs wired back to back across the AC lines. It does no good to only eliminate one polarity of spikes.

 

Now this is all my opinion and yours may vary. If you have scientific knowledge different from this or have experience different from what I imply then please speak up. My experience is base on my engineering background before there were TVS's available as components. Please add to this posting and don’t post hearsay or opinions with no scientific backing. I welcome knowledgable comments or criticisms.

 

LDBennett

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The TVS units I typically recommend are bi-polar devices, so they don't require adding two for an A/C output.

1.5KE36CA at Digikey

I designed avionics for many years, and we had very harsh protection criteria for many of our boxes.  I learned a lot about transient protection, and we used a lot of TVS devices in many of the designs.  I also have an impressive collection of ferrite beads of various sizes that got generously sprinkled around on boards, primarily to prevent emissions.  It is rare for a new design of a complex piece of avionics to make it through all the environmental testing without some tweaks, and they usually were in the EMI emission and protection arena.

Even the guys that are EMI specialists don't claim to have all the answers as far as EMI and lightning protection is concerned, and I don't either.

You may consider a TVS across the pickups of a locomotive to be overkill, and you have every right to hold that opinion.  My opinion is the TVS is a valuable transient protection device, and for the 50 cents I spend on them in quantity, I plan on continuing to use and recommend them.  I disagree with your opinion that they're not useful in a command environment, and I'm a bit confused how you come to that opinion.

Even if you have a surge protector in use on your 120 volt sources I still recommend using a TVS for your trains, especially the newer electronics. It is better to err on the side of caution with electronics then to be complacent and say it won't happen to me.

The price for a TVS unit compared to a repair job for a circuit is very low! Retail price for a TVS might be around $2.50 compared to a $150.00 repair bill.

 

Lee Fritz

An assumption was made in your post above that the engine manufacturers install all the proper protection in their products. By thinking they had all the bases covered, or thinking something might not be necessary, what if they have missed something that really was needed? The end users don't always use the products as the manufacturers assume they will, users are very creative and come up with all kinds of stuff no one has thought of before. No matter how much thought and expense is put into a product, it can not be made perfect and protected against all possible means of failure. Compromises are made in the design and manufacture of all products.

 

I'm not an electronics expert, I just dabble in the hobby with a lot of help from others here on the forum. I have no scientific data, but I have read many posts here on this forum about someone's engine electronics being fried after a derailment or short on the tracks. I have not witnessed this happening first hand, all I have to go on is what others have posted. Sometimes the manufacturers make the repairs and sometimes the engine owners get stuck with a $150-300 repair bill. If a 50 cent TVS will help prevent any of this this, I'm all for it and think it's a pretty good idea. It might save me and a manufacturer quite a bit of $$$.

 

 

Just for some counterpoint...  

 

Although the TVS is cheap, even for quantity 1, the cost of repairing an engine from operator-inflicted problems can be very high. There's a potential hidden cost every time a less-than-skilful operator unbuttons an engine, whether it's to add a TVS or replace a (perfectly good) battery with a BCR.

 

BCRs are fine, however, new batteries don't need replacing until they're too old to take a full charge.

 

Even dropping an engine's trucks to replace a traction tire can have unanticipated consequences.

 

I never recommend opening up an engine unless it's necessary to effect a repair or do something else that is absolutely necessary.

Barry, I certainly agree that someone that doesn't have the skills necessary start modifying their equipment, that applies to virtually any device.  I also don't routinely open up a locomotive just to install a TVS, it happens if I'm already in there for other work.

 

Not opening up a locomotive unless there's some repair needed is certainly not a point that I'm going to argue.

 

 

I have TVS's on track and power, but I do not have them on any engines yet. I'm probably semi-skilled when it comes to working on trains, many here are much more skilled than me. I am also a little hesitant to open an engine just to look around or install a TVS, but as GRJ says, if I have to get into one, I think I will be adding a 50-75 cent TVS while in there.

 

Barry,

I think I agree with too much current also, especially with the older transformers.  There have been posts here that have said the spikes are the most dangerous or most damaging to the electronics. I'm definitely not the expert, I just try to protect my stuff as best as I can with information gathered from reading things here on the forum and an occasional article or two elsewhere. I happen to believe they are both equally bad and I don't want spikes or over current if there is any way I can prevent it from happening.

Last edited by rtr12

 To quote GRJ...You may consider a TVS across the pickups of a locomotive to be overkill, and you have every right to hold that opinion.  My opinion is the TVS is a valuable transient protection device, and for the 50 cents I spend on them in quantity, I plan on continuing to use and recommend them. 

   My question is could i install the TVS across the red and black wires (the ones with wire nuts) above the boards or at the trucks?..across the wire nuts all kinds of room..at the trucks not much room.

Last edited by willygee

I am now understanding the debate and feel that this is what possibly happened to my MTH railking ES44ac locomotive.  The only thing is i did not notice any derailment that might have triggered this event.  I have the DCS system and feel confident that i have wired and hooked up my system correctly.  I am relatively new to the world of O-scale trains.  This TVS talk has certainly opened my eyes.  On my layout I have added two additional sidings.  My plan was to goto the DCS system for the purpose of turning on and off the engines I wanted to use at any time.  I guess my plan is flawed because I haven't added any power switches to those sidings.  So if any issue arrises I possibly could have a runaway train on my hands???  I will admit i got confused with one member saying you don't need TVS and another prominent member saying it can't hurt.  I am far from a handy guy with regards to train repair.  Although I am willing to learn.  I just don't know if my confidence level is up to the challenge.  Once again thank you OGR members for opening up a nice healthy debate that I am sure more people are learning from like myself!

Thats what i read in previous threads on the other post.  I was just reacting to what one member says with another member with strong conviction that a TVS is needed.  I feel I am ok.  But want to know id there anything i can do to help with my layout.  Thanks everyone!
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Barry Broskowitz:

Jim,

 

Your TIU already has a TVS on each channel.

 

Yes, I made some assumptions:

 

TIU or the Lionel equivalent includes TVS's in each channel that would protect the track from spikes coming from the power source. Is that true????

 

At no time is the locomotive motor connected directly to its pickups in a digitally controlled locomotive....There is a circuit board between the motor and the pickups. Installing a TVS on the pickup offers no protection on a DCS type locomotive. If  a TVS is added at the pickups to protect the circuit board how does a motor generated spike get suppressed on the other side of the motor controller by a TVS at the pickups??? 

 

Once spikes are suppressed at their source no more suppression is necessary.

 

MTH and Lionel followed normal industry practices for filtering power to circuits at the circuit. I know, a big assumption but I have not read of wholesale loss of any of these electronic components so they must have done something right (???).

 

Look, these are your trains. Do as you wish. I only offer my take on the TVS situation. I choose to not use them in my all DCS layout. We'll see if that is a bad decision.

 

LDBennett

 

 

Barry,

I ordered the TVS and there not expensive.

My son and I are in the process of upgrading a PS Doodle Bug to PS-2.  Do you have a diagram onto where to install the TVS.

It is quite a job to get everything to fit in the shell. Modifying includes drilling, cutting, and machining.  I was surprise that we needed to change the couplers?   In which we did.  Were to the stage of changing the lights.  I assume these changes are due to the battery voltage.  I understand the lights, but not the couplers.

After catching up on the post for the TVS I found it is more complicated than expected.  My problem is this.

I have found in the derailment problems with locomotives.  Not so much with the diesel engines but with the steam. The Transformer breaker normally takes care of the problem.   The trailing and forward trucks often derail.  I had to stretch or get stronger springs.  I still get a occasional derailment.  On the  4-8-4  the short took the shortest route to spring.    The short to the spring happened so fast I did not realize it was the spring and was cooked before the power was shut down at the transformer.  So the cow catcher arced on a slight grade, when put back on the track.

My question is this.  Will two thin plastic washers on each side of the spring prevent this?

Well I have to disagree with not opening up an engine if it is not broken. because Q/C is all but non existent and assuming the builder did a good job is a mistake. I open all my engines up and usually find something like this going on. future mishaps can be avoided by correcting them early on. it takes some skill to open up an engine, but not much. 

     To quote JohnS...Well I have to disagree with not opening up an engine if it is not broken. because Q/C is all but non existent and assuming the builder did a good job is a mistake. I open all my engines up and usually find something like this going on. future mishaps can be avoided by correcting them early on. it takes some skill to open up an engine, but not much. 

    I completely agree. Out of all 11 of my ps3 and 2 engines 7 needed some attention from repositioning wires to defective 2rail 3 rail switches. I now pull the cab shell and inspect and service before it sees the track.

That is inherently not true as was pointed out by the QSI study and by others.

Did that study (and "others") actually state that there were more damaged boards due to transient spikes rather than over-current anomalies, or did it state what could happen due to a transient spike?

 

If the former, let's see the studies.

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz

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