Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback? You are always welcome.
Mike A.
Mikeaa posted:Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback? You are always welcome.
Mike A.
My, my... Where have I heard similar sentiments like that before?
BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there?
I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.
Rusty
Plastic has a perceived cheapness. One that will never go away! It is in bread in the fabric of the American consumer...certainly for some reason. As a example...Lionel's plastic tab couplers....anyone want to trade in there new die cast couplers?
If Lionel is following this, I'll throw my hat in the ring and say I'd welcome a plastic steamer if it was scale proportioned and not have too many cast in details. No cast in handrails please. A ledge of material representing a wire handrail in a scale this large is inexcusable. FlyerCheif is fine. Legacy is better.
Fine by me.
Screws stripping is a non-issue to me. There should rarely be any reason to open them up in the first place. In my experience brass is much more prone to stripping than plastic and that hasn't stopped anyone from making brass.
How Many People here think the SD70 or other new diesels from Lionel are Cheap? its just a question.
I have not ever thought they were cheap. I mean if you can make plastic steam perform just like the Y3 or Berkshire (but better detailing) it seems foolish not to.
I would rather have a detailed plastic Berk with handrails vs a metal berk with molded on handrails. FYI I have said Berkshires and love them. for me it all comes down to performance.
Plastic-bodied steam engines
Positive
- Lower investment cost, less risk for Lionel
- Greater variety of locomotives and quicker time to market
- Better molded in detail
- Lower price point—maybe—for locomotives
- Highly detailed versions with Legacy electronics (Challenger, Mikado, Pacific, Y-3)
- Less detailed versions with Flyer Chief similar to Berkshire (the Chevy Biscayne, Belaire, Impala model—same car/more detailing for a higher price; maximizes return on the investment)
Negative
- Some market resistance to plastic bodies as “cheap”
- Concern about screws stripping plastic body (metal inserts could be molded in as in the U33C)
Metal-bodied steam engines
Positive
- Offer the image of higher quality
- Heavier bodies can offer more traction
Negative
- Higher investment cost, more risk
- High price points to recover higher costs
- Build-to-order sales approach—reduces prospect of production (mechanical reefers only met 10% of minimum required for production—not because of lack of interest but because of distrust caused by the cylindrical hopper fiasco)
- Fewer choices offered; extended time to market
When I weigh the pros and cons, I would prefer to have more choices, more variety, and lower costs; so a plastic body on a Legacy steam locomotive that looks as good and runs as well as a Y-3 for $700 and a plastic Berkshire Flyer Chief type for $400 is fine with me. A $1,500 build-to-order metal-bodied steam locomotive that may or may not be built--you won't know until the hobby shop either cancels the order or ships it four years after you have placed the order--is not the way to build interest or excitement.
Is everyone thinking that lower production cost will equate to lower selling price?
Maybe, just maybe, the selling price is based on what the market will bear.
Lionel tried a low selling price experiment with the O gauge Milwaukee road S-3 Northern. To their dismay, it did not sell in sufficient quantities to justify offering more lower cost locomotives.
Plastic is fine. I have no interest in/use for Legacy or LionChief technologies.
RadioRon posted:Plastic is fine. I have no interest in/use for Legacy or LionChief technologies.
As long as the detail is applied and not cast. Concur with the proprietary systems, I don't want to have to pay for something I'm only going to rip out.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Word I got was not cast in detail.
I think you guys are going to have to get over no proprietary electronics. Lionel and MTH are not going to back off those in their locomotives.
Rusty Traque posted:Mikeaa posted:Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback? You are always welcome.
Mike A.
My, my... Where have I heard similar sentiments like that before?
BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there?
I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.
Rusty
Rusty,
My guess is most of the S-Trains group is similar to the S-Scale groups. They been running S trains for far longer the Lionel has been cramming proprietary systems down the throat of the collective S trains market. They didn’t need it before and probably only newcomers would embrace it now.
Who is going to convert DC or DCC to Legacy? AM and SHS both offered engines without proprietary systems so I know it is possible to leave out the Legacy or TMCC or whatever the next new not necessarily backward compatible system is.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Lionel has to respond to two markets. the old dudes and the young guys bringing youth into the hobby. The electronics are not going away. and I think with SHS and AM it was more of a matter of economics. they sell to a much smaller niche than the Big L aims to sell to.
Plastic shells on steam loks? No thank you.
Tom Stoltz posted:Rusty Traque posted:Mikeaa posted:Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback? You are always welcome.
Mike A.
My, my... Where have I heard similar sentiments like that before?
BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there?
I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.
Rusty
Rusty,
My guess is most of the S-Trains group is similar to the S-Scale groups. They been running S trains for far longer the Lionel has been cramming proprietary systems down the throat of the collective S trains market. They didn’t need it before and probably only newcomers would embrace it now.
Who is going to convert DC or DCC to Legacy? AM and SHS both offered engines without proprietary systems so I know it is possible to leave out the Legacy or TMCC or whatever the next new not necessarily backward compatible system is.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Tom,
I wasn't addressing the proprietary systems, like Bill says, those are here to stay. There's still a contingent of 3-rail O gaugers that want nothing to do with TMCC, Legacy, Chief or DCS while both Lionel and MTH sail right past them.
I was addressing the plastic steamer trial balloon. If Lionel's going to rely solely on this forum for input, they're only going to get a small and perhaps skewed sample.
I know the scale guys would have zero interest unless conversion is possible (notice I didn't say optional or available) so it makes no sense to even bring the subject up to them. But S-Trains is where the Gilbert Gang hangs out and if someone here (I'm not) is on that forum, it would probably be worth it to make the boys on Yahoo aware of the possibility.
After all, if the question is going to be asked publicly, wouldn't the largest sample possible be desirable? Otherwise, design it, build it and take your accolades or lumps with the market.
Ultimately, if Lionel makes something I would want to have, I'll buy it. (Assuming they don't short my LHS's distributor again...) If not, I'll just look at all the pretty pictures in the catalog.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:Mikeaa posted:Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback? You are always welcome.
Mike A.
My, my... Where have I heard similar sentiments like that before?
BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there?
I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.
Rusty
Hi Rusty,
If I'm repeating something said by you or someone else here, I didn't mean to plagiarize.
However, since Roundhouse Bill said Lionel is reading this thread, I thought it was worth mentioning even if it was mentioned before.
Mike A.
I have a Gilbert Flyer 293, plastic shell, with a can motor conversion and ERR Mini Commander 2. It does regular duty at shows. It's a good puller, able to do 30 cars (with modern-production trucks, such as SHS, AM, or K-Line) with no problem at all.
I like the feel and weight of a diecast loco and tender as you are putting it on the track, but if a plastic-bodied steamer pulls well and is reliable... I don't think the material it's made of is that much of an issue.
Taking the mechanism built for the Berkshires, truncating it to 6 drivers instead of 8 and putting a nicely detailed plastic shell on top with FlyerChief for < $300 or full legacy for <$500.... you could have a pretty big hit there, I think.
Giving a nod to Jerry's post above, I've developed a real dislike for fan-driven smoke units. When they work they're great. But they just don't seem to hold up. A pencil-eraser sized motor assaulted by oil and heat is gonna lead a short life. I know on the articulated models there wasn't another choice, but is it possible to do a piston-type smoker, like Gilbert did and AM did on their Northern? There should be plenty of room in the tender for the electronics. In my 293 conversion above I was able to fit the Mini Commander, Railsounds board and speaker in the tender.
Nick C.
I for one am not crazy about the notion of plastic steam engine shells. Not that I don't think they will be detailed enough, or possibly even durable enough, but that I don't think plastic bodied steam engines will have the same balance, smooth running, and pulling power as die cast shells. For example, I very much like and enjoy American Hi-rail and Balston Locomotive Works steam engines (especially the streamlined models like the Hiawatha and 20th Century Limited), but with resin bodies, they wobble more than their die cast Gilbert AF counterparts. Nothing like the heft of a die cast to smooth things out.
Original Gilbert 293's were diecast with plastic tenders.
