S Gaugian, My Y3 wobbles and I have seen others that do. Do your plastic diesels wobble? None of my Gilbert plastic engines wobble, do yours? If properly done a plastic steam engine won't wobble.
Give Plastic a chance.
Rusty Traque posted:BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there?
I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.
Rusty
Interestingly, I have yet to see this thread cross posted to the S-Trains list. Does that mean I am the only one that belongs to both lists?
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
I don't belong to either of those posts. I do on Facebook. I don't know if Lionel watches the others. That is the key.
Roundhouse Bill posted:S Gaugian, My Y3 wobbles and I have seen others that do. Do your plastic diesels wobble? None of my Gilbert plastic engines wobble, do yours? If properly done a plastic steam engine won't wobble.
Give Plastic a chance.
A wobble will be the result of worn/bad bushings or bearings, a bent axle, a wheel not true on its axle or an uneven traction tire. The material used on the body will not cause a wobble, it will just emphasize it.
I've seen and owned plastic, die cast and brass locomotives that wobbled. The same for ones that didn't wobble.
As I once wrote in a letter to the editor decades ago in 3/16" S Scale Railroading magazine when discussing a similar topic: "A brass wheel with a wobble is no better than a plastic wheel with a wobble."
Rusty
Roundhouse Bill posted:I don't belong to either of those posts. I do on Facebook. I don't know if Lionel watches the others. That is the key.
Speaks volumes…
Maybe, Lionel should post the question of plastic steam locomotives on THEIR American Flyer Facebook page rather than highlighting a 3-rail O gauge guy.
Just a thought...
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:Maybe, Lionel should post the question of plastic steam locomotives on THEIR American Flyer Facebook page rather than highlighting a 3-rail O gauge guy.
Just a thought...
Rusty
This is an interesting point. Though I’m not sure another dedicated Lionel site is the best place to get feedback about what S gauge really is. S gauge is not Lionel, never has been, however now it does seem that Lionel wants to dictate what S gauge will be despite 71+ years without them.
I have found the focus of this S scale (I use the words S scale & S gauge interchangeably though not really correct) forum to be largely influenced by the 3 rail cross overs. And maybe that’s as it should be, being that it is the 0 gauge forum. However, having been active in the Yahoo groups of S-trains and S-scale since 2001 and NASG since 1995 and S via AF since 1948, joining this group has been an eye opener and a very different experience. It seems of me that a large number of this group have come from the 0 gauge side which of course means Lionel which in turn means the acceptance of things Lionel… fantasy equipment and the proprietary control systems. I have not experienced this (at least to this degree) on the S gauge sights. So this attitude is new to me.
I do remember quite a while ago Jonnyspeed saying that Lionel was going to do what they wanted and not address the needs of S gaugers in general. I was surprised at the time, hoping he was wrong, but sadly have come to realize he was right. MTH seems to be following suit. I had hope they would continue in the direction of SHS, however it is now apparent they are more interested in competition with Lionel than furthering S gauge. Maybe great for the toy train industry, but S was never part of that.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Tom Stoltz posted:Rusty Traque posted:Maybe, Lionel should post the question of plastic steam locomotives on THEIR American Flyer Facebook page rather than highlighting a 3-rail O gauge guy.
Just a thought...
Rusty
This is an interesting point. Though I’m not sure another dedicated Lionel site is the best place to get feedback about what S gauge really is. S gauge is not Lionel, never has been, however now it does seem that Lionel wants to dictate what S gauge will be despite 71+ years without them.
I have found the focus of this S scale (I use the words S scale & S gauge interchangeably though not really correct) forum to be largely influenced by the 3 rail cross overs. And maybe that’s as it should be, being that it is the 0 gauge forum. However, having been active in the Yahoo groups of S-trains and S-scale since 2001 and NASG since 1995 and S via AF since 1948, joining this group has been an eye opener and a very different experience. It seems of me that a large number of this group have come from the 0 gauge side which of course means Lionel which in turn means the acceptance of things Lionel… fantasy equipment and the proprietary control systems. I have not experienced this (at least to this degree) on the S gauge sights. So this attitude is new to me.
I do remember quite a while ago Jonnyspeed saying that Lionel was going to do what they wanted and not address the needs of S gaugers in general. I was surprised at the time, hoping he was wrong, but sadly have come to realize he was right. MTH seems to be following suit. I had hope they would continue in the direction of SHS, however it is now apparent they are more interested in competition with Lionel than furthering S gauge. Maybe great for the toy train industry, but S was never part of that.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Sorry to have been the bearer of bad news Tom, but I've been dealing with Lionel for a long time coming from O.
My feeling is that this thread is a microcosm of the main problem. If there are 20 unique responses to the original question, there are probably 21 different opinions. To add to the problem, S is represented by multiple factions... Flyer, Hi-rail, Scale, P:64, Sn3. I don't think Lionel or MTH really understood the dynamics of the whole S market before they jumped in. Add in a change in Lionel management and recent China production troubles and I guess that's where we find ourselves. I hope I'm wrong about the future of S from Lionel and MTH, but I've been right so far...
jonnyspeed posted:To add to the problem, S is represented by multiple factions... Flyer, Hi-rail, Scale, P:64, Sn3. I don't think Lionel or MTH really understood the dynamics of the whole S market before they jumped in.
I don't think anybody expects Lionel or MTH to concentrate on P:64 or Sn3. American Models surely doesn't and the former SHS didn't. (Neither does River Raisin for that matter. PBL is pretty much the go-to company for Sn3.)
But, both AM and SHS figured out how to sell to the other three (remember, AM started out only selling scale-wheeled, DC operated products.)
However, it appears over time SHS became the true driving force for S and it's an opportunity that MTH has squandered. And if Lionel ever stops bumping into walls, they could also become a driving force for S.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:jonnyspeed posted:To add to the problem, S is represented by multiple factions... Flyer, Hi-rail, Scale, P:64, Sn3. I don't think Lionel or MTH really understood the dynamics of the whole S market before they jumped in.
I don't think anybody expects Lionel or MTH to concentrate on P:64 or Sn3. American Models surely doesn't and the former SHS didn't. (Neither does River Raisin for that matter. PBL is pretty much the go-to company for Sn3.)
But, both AM and SHS figured out how to sell to the other three (remember, AM started out only selling scale-wheeled, DC operated products.)
However, it appears over time SHS became the true driving force for S and it's an opportunity that MTH has squandered. And if Lionel ever stops bumping into walls, they could also become a driving force for S.
Rusty
The point I was making is that S has very few modelers to start with and those are split between several groups. Niche within a niche... Then for whatever reason it seems that there are several differing opinions within those groups on any given question.
I agree that SHS had the formula correct. You need to design the products in a way that they will appeal to Flyer, HiRail, and Scale modelers alike. I suppose Lionel does have the traditional Flyer crowd, as the FlyerCheif BERK seems to be selling well at it's price point. While I'm happy for those folks that like it, it doesn't interest me as a Scale fan.
We've discussed this before, but I think one of Lionel's biggest missteps was the assumption that S was just like O. In O the bigger the model you make, the more you sell. Not necessarily so in S. You are talking about a scale that never had anything bigger than a 4-8-4 until Lionel came on the seen. They hit the market with 3 big articulated engines and then decided that there was no market and it was too costly to make more high end steam. I still believe that they simply chose the wrong prototypes. Jon Z. Told me 2 years ago that he had reduced the size of the electronics to the point that smaller models were now possible. That timing coincided with the management change unfortunately.
So back on topic.... I think that a small/mid sized plastic shelled steam engine could work. On the diesel side I think they need to look at something like the Sd40, Gp30/35/38/40, 44Tonner, 70tonner, S2, U23, C-series, etc... Basically something short enough to easily negotiate 20"r. That is assume of course that they want to invest in new tooling.
Perhaps they should call Ron at AM and see if he is interested in selling his tooling. Then they could spruce those up and add their electronics. Cheaper than making new. It's what Atlas and Lionel just did in O with Weaver... Just sayin...
Rusty Traque posted:But, both AM and SHS figured out how to sell to the other three (remember, AM started out only selling scale-wheeled, DC operated products.)
However, it appears over time SHS became the true driving force for S and it's an opportunity that MTH has squandered. And if Lionel ever stops bumping into walls, they could also become a driving force for S.
Rusty
I don’t think Lionel will be a driving force is S simply because they are so focused on the toy train market and their proprietary electronic systems. Most Hi-rail and certainly all scale people are not interested in non-standard systems. The model railroad settled on a standard DCC system and why Lionel can’t comply is beyond me. As I said before, maybe great for the toy train market, but S was never part of that.
Tom
Tom Stoltz posted:Rusty Traque posted:But, both AM and SHS figured out how to sell to the other three (remember, AM started out only selling scale-wheeled, DC operated products.)
However, it appears over time SHS became the true driving force for S and it's an opportunity that MTH has squandered. And if Lionel ever stops bumping into walls, they could also become a driving force for S.
Rusty
I don’t think Lionel will be a driving force is S simply because they are so focused on the toy train market and their proprietary electronic systems. Most Hi-rail and certainly all scale people are not interested in non-standard systems. The model railroad settled on a standard DCC system and why Lionel can’t comply is beyond me. As I said before, maybe great for the toy train market, but S was never part of that.
Tom
Tom, just so you are aware Lionel Legacy S electronics support AC, DC, DCC, TMCC, and Legacy. I don't think they are leaving anyone out.
jonnyspeed posted:Tom, just so you are aware Lionel Legacy S electronics support AC, DC, DCC, TMCC, and Legacy. I don't think they are leaving anyone out.
Jonathan, thanks for the reminder. However based on the performance of my Y3 on DC, I would have to disagree with that statement. Also, when I buy an engine, I would like to choose the sound system… there are so many to choose from it is silly to be locked into one. Then there is the issue that proprietary systems is not the way the model railroad industry is set up. If you want to participate in the model railroad market there are a set of standards that helps keep everything compatible. There is plenty of leeway within that system to put your own spin on it so again, I don’t understand Lionel’s approach other than their aim is towards the toy train side of things.
Tom
Tom Stoltz posted:jonnyspeed posted:Tom, just so you are aware Lionel Legacy S electronics support AC, DC, DCC, TMCC, and Legacy. I don't think they are leaving anyone out.
Jonathan, thanks for the reminder. However based on the performance of my Y3 on DC, I would have to disagree with that statement. Also, when I buy an engine, I would like to choose the sound system… there are so many to choose from it is silly to be locked into one. Then there is the issue that proprietary systems is not the way the model railroad industry is set up. If you want to participate in the model railroad market there are a set of standards that helps keep everything compatible. There is plenty of leeway within that system to put your own spin on it so again, I don’t understand Lionel’s approach other than their aim is towards the toy train side of things.
Tom
I can understand your point of view. I think that Don Thompson hit it out of the park at SHS. He designed a basic electronics interface based off of an existing standard (DCC) and made additional adapters that would allow AC, DC, or proprietary (LocoMatic) sound and control. I don't know what is so hard about that. My suspicion is that Lionel and MTH both force the electronics because a good portion of the profit and competitive differentiation (in their minds) comes from the electronics.
Example: I spoke with Andy E. of MTH at the big show in Cleveland a few years back. I asked him why he thought MTH would be successful re-releasing the same products that had been on the market for years? He was quick to say DCS and ProtoSounds. He felt that once S modelers got their hands on MTH electronics that they would gladly buy the same products again. I thought that was a bad idea then. I think it is even worse idea now because DCC sound has caught up to and well surpassed DCS or RailSounds. So now MTH is going to release a run of F's with a control system nobody wants that has sub-standard sound. AND they will likely take away the ability to easily swap electronics like Don designed. So the only options will be to live with it or gut it.
As I said before... S is different than O or HO and I still don't think they fully grasp it. But you can count on them force feeding the market what they want to sell us.
jonnyspeed posted:Example: I spoke with Andy E. of MTH at the big show in Cleveland a few years back. I asked him why he thought MTH would be successful re-releasing the same products that had been on the market for years? He was quick to say DCS and ProtoSounds. He felt that once S modelers got their hands on MTH electronics that they would gladly buy the same products again. I thought that was a bad idea then. I think it is even worse idea now because DCC sound has caught up to and well surpassed DCS or RailSounds. So now MTH is going to release a run of F's with a control system nobody wants that has sub-standard sound. AND they will likely take away the ability to easily swap electronics like Don designed. So the only options will be to live with it or gut it.
As I said before... S is different than O or HO and I still don't think they fully grasp it. But you can count on them force feeding the market what they want to sell us.
DCS 3.0 is DCC compatible. It's used in MTH's HO line (where DCS was snubbed) and also loaded in current O Gauge production.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:jonnyspeed posted:Example: I spoke with Andy E. of MTH at the big show in Cleveland a few years back. I asked him why he thought MTH would be successful re-releasing the same products that had been on the market for years? He was quick to say DCS and ProtoSounds. He felt that once S modelers got their hands on MTH electronics that they would gladly buy the same products again. I thought that was a bad idea then. I think it is even worse idea now because DCC sound has caught up to and well surpassed DCS or RailSounds. So now MTH is going to release a run of F's with a control system nobody wants that has sub-standard sound. AND they will likely take away the ability to easily swap electronics like Don designed. So the only options will be to live with it or gut it.
As I said before... S is different than O or HO and I still don't think they fully grasp it. But you can count on them force feeding the market what they want to sell us.
DCS 3.0 is DCC compatible. It's used in MTH's HO line (where DCS was snubbed) and also loaded in current O Gauge production.
Rusty
Fully aware of that. Doesn't change anything I said. They have the same problems as Lionel.
1. They employ a watered down basic DCC implementation. Not full blown DCC
2. They do not use a DCC socket for easy removal/upgrades (MTH remains to be seen)
3. Sounds are not as good as best DCC decoders
4. When DCS 4.0 comes out you probably won't be able to upgrade your 3.0 engines. See #2
5. With MTH's DCS/DCC implementation in my HO models there are some features/settings that can not be changed under DCC control. You HAVE to have a DCS system to make certain changes. Trust me, this one is a pain.
You guys keep talking about DCC as if that is what all in S want. I don't want it at all. I like and prefer Lionel's proprietary systems and I look forward to MTH's DCS system. Those of you in DCC make up probably about 15% of the S market.
I think Lionel is playing to the S market as it exists for the 85% and including the 15% of the market by extending Legacy to use DCC. Remember they have been making S since 1981 so they have lots of history in S.
MTH will develop its products with DCS because they believe the S market will like it better that the Lionel systems. I know about MTH as I spent lots of time talking about this with Andy Edelman at York. There were lots of questions and answers to this point in the interview article.
Lionel and MTH are never going to abandon their proprietary systems for DCC.
It's all a matter of perception.
DCC is a lot like my car radio where I have 18 AM, FM and XM selections each. Never tried the AM, and I'll generally use only two selections each on FM and XM. I've long forgotten what the other radio stations I programmed in are when I bought the car.
Lionel's DCC suits my purposes when I run my SD70's, I expect MTH's will do the same.
Consisting is a pain in my opinion with anybody's DCC. When my F3's arrive, they're not going to be switched out or changed around. I'll set up the consist and leave it alone.
I expect 95% of the model railroading community uses only the basic CV's of DCC. After 40+ years in the hobby, I have yet to destroy a conventional locomotive because minor speed or acceleration/deceleration differences. And I generally don't feel the need to mix brands of locomotives.
I'm less worried about sound nowadays than I was a few years ago. My SD's and SHS 2-8-0 are my only loco's with sound. I usually have the volume low enough that when the train is 5-6 feet away, the sound of the wheels drown it out. My other DCC loco's are soundless. And I'm in no hurry to convert my conventional locomotives.
Frankly, the thing I most like about DCC is it keeps the headlight constant and on when I stop the locomotive.
Rusty
Roundhouse Bill posted:You guys keep talking about DCC as if that is what all in S want. I don't want it at all. I like and prefer Lionel's proprietary systems and I look forward to MTH's DCS system. Those of you in DCC make up probably about 15% of the S market.
I think Lionel is playing to the S market as it exists for the 85% and including the 15% of the market by extending Legacy to use DCC. Remember they have been making S since 1981 so they have lots of history in S.
Bill,
I do believe this is a common mistake, confusing American Flyer with S as a whole. The trying to group Flyer as representative of S is what causes scalers to be so against AF. DCC and 15% of the market is not the way Don T of SHS describes it. And don’t forget AM doesn’t offer Legacy, TMCC or Chief nor did SHS. Lionel has been making AF since 1981 or so, but it wasn’t until the Mikado did they ventured into the wider market of S Hi-rail. Please remember, there is a difference between Flyer and Hi-rail. If you don’t believe me, just turn them over and compare the wheels. And scale wheels are a third category!
I have and run lots of Flyer plus I have ACG accessories on my layout, so it is not as though I’m anti Flyer. But I can tell the difference between Flyer (including the Flyonel rehash) and the Hi-rail of AM & SHS. I only have a few pieces of scale and there the distinction is harder to discern. One must really look at the wheels to see the variation between scale and Hi-rail.
I recognize the Lionel and MTH will probably have a difficult time getting away from their systems. But face it, it is not what the world of model railroading does. Ever see Legacy advertised in Model Railroader?
Tom Stoltz
I would say that DCC is less than 15% of the S market. Not all the scalers are into DCC. Most of the time I run conventional DC anyway. My first DCC locomotive was the SHS 2-8-0 (with sound to boot.)
I've converted a handful of locomotives to "silent" DCC, but the bulk of my roster is DC and there isn't enough of an advantage in DCC for my use to convert them.
Rusty
