Will we ever see a SD70ACe or ES44AC produced in plastic that is similar in quality to the Overland Models brass engines?

As I recall the Lionel diecast ES44s were quite pricey and strickly 3rail,there later runs of the Heritage units in plastic were a good deal less, I have never really compared the 2 versions so I can not comment on how the 2 stack up. MTH is doing diecast HO these days in there steam line with added details at a good deal less than the imported HO brass steam[serious money these days]

As I said earlier I think the Lionel Shell is pretty good and with some work potentially as good or better than anything Atlas might do.  Here's a comparison between a new Overland, a Lionel I am working on modifying the under frame and an original Lionel.

So I think it is possible. But at what price?  If someone came up with a replacement under frame/drive of the Overland presence what would someone be willing to pay for it?  Remember fewer numbers equals higher price.  

Would probably run $500-$1000 for less than 250 units down to $250-$500 for over 1000 units.

Another problem is none of the overseas manufacturers seem to be interested in making just the under frame/drive (I've asked) so they would probably have to be made in the USA by someone like Erik Stott.

Oh,  Wheels on the KCS unit have been replaced with old Atlas 2-rail wheels.  Otherwise, it's kinda hard to see the original underframe in black but that is all I have out right now.

 I wonder if you took the front china motor out of a MTH to fit in cab details, if it would still out pull the Overland? You guys probably don't care as much. I want them to pull like a real one does. I'd consider a horizontal if it could pull decent length trains. I'd add weight if the drive could take it long term.

 One MTH doesn't seem to pull super amazing amounts. Three or four couple well together and are hard to stop.

 I also wonder if a four unit consist of the Overland's (under command) would couple up and tug a big train? I would have loved to get four to see. I'll just have to rely on Mike P and others doing it for me and video taping it some more.

 Until I can get my hands on one...  Where's that demo scheme used one???

Anybody got buyer's remorse....yet?? Is it possible to just buy an Overland shell???

 Excuse the ramble.

Ramble excused.  There is no difference in pulling power with motor mounted vertically.  The differences are in the gear ratios, and possibly in your case, traction tires.

If you want raw pulling power, you want low gearing, a big motor, low friction transmissions, lots of weight, and in the case of two rail, iron drive wheels ( not sintered iron, but good high grade machined iron).  Plated drivers will slip until the plating wears off.  Mild steel is almost as good as iron, and stainless seems a bit slippery.

Bob and Sunset are doing a wonderful job, but they are not even trying to compete with Overland or Key.  Different markets.  Buy lots of their E-7s and maybe they will get in to the more esoteric locomotives.  I do not even know what an ES44 AC is.  Don't need to know.

Hmmm sounds like we need to get enough folks together and a company willing to make the molds to that level of detail.

I wonder if a build would get orders totaling over 1000 units by offering several different options and road names for the SD70ACe. Maybe offer 4 unique road numbers per railroad.

Road Names: BNSF, UP, CSX, KCS, NS, & EMD Demos. 

Options:  

3-Rail with TMCC and RailSounds 

2 Rail with QSI TITAN SERIES DCC with Sound

2-Rail DC (No Sounds)

3-Rail Non-Powered

2-Rail Non-Powered   

It all starts with an idea!

Regards,

Swafford

That's an indictment of the builder, NOT the material. Those models would be just as horrendous if they were made of plastic.

Simon

The reality is the O Scale (and Gauge) market is shrinking, and fast.   The 3rd Rail E7s may have been 1500 units just a couple of years ago but the FP7s are 750 units and the proposed FTs are only 500 units and he doesn't even have half the reservations needed to move forward.  The number of GGD passenger trains and cars is likewise shrinking fast.  The numbers for the '38 20th Century were higher 5 years ago than the '48 20th Century and twice the number for the current '38 Broadway.  And the reminder of the Columbian cars are being made (I think about 30 of each car) at the same time to make the minimum numbers.  And those minimum numbers are shrinking too with requisite cost increases.  

There were only 160 Overland SD70ACes made.  

The reason is simple, the cost to manufacture these reduced numbers is multiples of the US inflation rate multiplied by the 25% annual wage increase the Chinese government mandates.  So yes, the cost and thus the prices will increase about 15% per year until the market disappears.  It is not Lionel, etc being greedy.  The reason Scott wrote about moving manufacturing to the Philippines is to get away from those increases.  But the more manufacturing that moves there the more the pressure for those wages to start increasing like China.

The good enough threshold for 3-rail is generally low and Lionel and MTH have pretty much saturated the 3-rail SD70ACe market at all the lower (sub $1K) price points.  The same is true for ES44s.

You wouldn't get more than about 100 reservations for an accurate $1K plastic SD70ACe.  Probably more like 60-70.  And the die cast suggestion would not make any significant change.  There are folks like me who might be interested in a plastic version who have zero interest in a die cast version.

This is some very interesting discussion for sure. The new OMI units are stunning and Richard, your BHP unit is awesome in every regard. I had not seen that one yet. Lionel has issues with their undercarriage and truck placement which makes them look somewhat unusual. They also have trucks that look odd for some reason, so they really are not candidates to convert in my opinion. The best detailed undercarriage is what sets OMI apart form the rest for sure. Body details can be upgraded, to a certain degree, but the frame and truck/placement/details are the proof of an ideal model and where it all begins.

Would someone be kind enough to explain the reason why these steam locomotives, EMD SD40, SD45, E-7 & F-series are so popular with the high-detail model importers like Kohs, Midwest Model Works, Sunset & Key Imports? I can assume that these importers are making what their customers want. But I have been in this country for 12 years & been in this hobby for just the last 7 years. Whenever I see a real train, it is usually led by the EMD SD70 series locomotives, GE Dash 9, AC4400CW or the newer Evolution series locomotives. From what I learnt from this forum & on Wikipedia, the models that these high-end imports offer have not been in regular revenue service for many decades. So are these importers relying on reservations form model railroaders who have to be old enough to be familiar with the prototype models of these locomotives? With such modelers passing away due to old age wouldn’t that diminish the needed reservations for each subsequent run?

I own Overland SD70ACe & SD70MAC from an earlier run & last month I got a scale-wheeled MTH BNSF ES44AC from the most recent run. Compared to a scale-wheeled MTH SD70M-2 that I bought in 2006, this newer MTH model looks much better, almost as close to detail as the older Overland models (except for the cab interior). But with the positive reviews I am seeing on this forum for these new models from Sunset / 3^rd rail, I would love to see their expertise in making highly detailed plastic models, with the newer EMD & GE locomotives.

Could it be that Sunset is unwilling to offer the newer models because MTH & Lionel are offering it? But then, SD40 & E-7 could also be offered by many other model importers for decades.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Understood, but these type of discussions tend to drift into the superiority of brass vs. the inferiority of plastic, regardless of the builder.

I'd be willing to bet that if Overland ever announced a plastic diesel, there would be a huge outcry of dissatifaction.

This "metal vs. plastic" debate has been going on since the late 1950's and frankly, will never be settled.

Rusty

Simple. 

There is a market for them, be they late 1800 steam locomotives from SMR trains or Overland SD70ACe's.

If there was no market demand, they wouldn't be produced.

Rusty

Sawfford,  the chances of that happening is IMHO just about the same as if Kohs where to announce GE Evolution Series diesels....not likely to happen.  But we can always dream of it, imagine a brute of diesel as an ES44AC done up in the full glory of all the detailing and ball bearingness of an SJ Kohs engine.  Heck let's toss in a Boo Rim GPM.  Sunset did 80's GE diesels in brass but aren't close to the detail of OMI or the newer run MTH GE's.  To me they look like the lesser detailed Williams equivalent of a steam loco.

Unless there is a large influx of 2-rail O scalers: Unlikely. 

Athearn, highly doubtful.

Rusty

Those are questions best asked directly of 3rd-Rail and Atlas-O.  While I can speculate along with everyone, I surely don't have the access to their decisions.

But, my observation would be that late steam, "transition era" to 2nd generation diesels is probably the middle of the curve for modeler's interest right now.  Interest in  contemporary modeling is growing, but it is not near what the interest is for more "historical" modeling.

Rusty

Rusty

When it comes down to FINE details, they pretty much have to be metal, so you better put a caveat on the plastic vs metal discussion, because if it has metal details, it's not ALL plastic. The size of "O" is such that even some details done in metal are flimsy! (I'd vote for making some of those things (even when done in brass) a bit more robust [thicker], but then it would be out of scale [Oh, the horror!!!]

As for Overland and plastic, I suspect you are correct, as some time back they came out with a series of models under the name "Tower 55" that were plastic or mostly that (as best I recall). As I remember, they were mostly HO, so not in my realm of interest, but I think there was a lot of gnashing of the HO scale teeth, and Tower 55 went away fairly quickly.

As with most things each material has pros and cons, and the bottom line always comes down to personal preference and cost. My personal lament is that Intermountain failed to put metal details on the "O" scale cars. They would have been great had they done so.

My biggest gripe is that many times the existence of a poor model (no matter what material) will prevent the introduction of a decent one of the same ilk. Trash is trash, no matter what the material.

Regards,

Simon

I believe the Tower 55 tooling went to Athearn where it's enjoying greater success.

And yes, trash is trash, no matter what the material and can impede further deveopment.

Rusty

My dream would be "Tower 55" in O Scale 2-Rail! WOW............. That would make for some fantastic models!

Regards,

Swafford

I suppose I can identify with that - my dream, about 1975, was a string of Budd streamlined cars, and maybe a Pullman Daylight string, and maybe, just maybe a string of Empire Builder and Columbian - all for cheap.

Thanks to Mac Shops, K-Line, and Speer, I now have all those.  In the last four decades there has been a renaissance of sorts on O scale, and one can buy almost anything.  I suppose that includes this ES70 - you apparently can indeed purchase one of these in either plastic or metal if you want.  The one thing you cannot do is purchase an Overland equivalent in plastic, and I suspect that one of the many reasons for that is that it would cost slightly more than the built- up brass version.

Why not get the metal version, and paint it.  Then pretend it is plastic?

Overland already does the fantastic models in brass! (Even though their stuff is not in my period of interest.)

I think your best bet is Atlas, and if I were you, I'd let them know what I wanted! (Really!)

Simon

Tower 55 was plastic I believe.

Intermountain and Red Caboose gave up bringing out new models because people would not build their kits.  Bill Mc Clung from Red Caboose told me some years ago at the Chicago March Meet they were having many of their GP 9's returned.  I asked him if there were problems with the models.  He said "no, they want someone to assemble them".  The Alco S2 project was well along, but he said Red Caboose wouldn't finish the project.  Intermountain and Red Caboose's models were superbly detailed - that wasn't the problem.   Most O Scalers want it RTR.  Used to be "The Builders Scale", not so much any more.  Go to the contest room at the big shows and look at the lack of models entered.  The stuff that is entered is really exceptional.  Plastic no good, look at Lee Turner's Weaver RS 3 - museum quality!

I model the steam diesel transition era because I like steam locos. Its not because I saw steam when I was a young railfan. I'm 71 but I didn't see much steam when I was young because I'm from Philadelphia.

I'm glad to see Intermountain models mentioned. I'm very interested in steam era freight cars. I consider the Intermountain, now Atlas, styrene 1937 AAR boxcar the gold standard of steam era O scale freight cars. I have Pacific Limited boxcars, a Keystone Model Works PRR H21a hopper, and a Kohs G22. None of them has better detail than the Intermountain boxcar. In my opinion the Protocraft modified 1937 AAR boxcar models are the first O scale brass boxcars to achieve the same level of detail as the Intermountain styrene model.

Larry Kline

Pittsburgh, PA

Thats a pretty accurate description of the market for Sunset,as demand decreases price per unit has to rise to make a production run possible. I see his latest Email is offering the RDCs at 100- less than previously listed in an attempt to get sufficent reservations to produce the model, bear in mind Sunset/GoldenGate, Weaver and Atlas are highly dependent on the 3rail market to make their 2 railproducts viable. Overland[according to Brian out of O scale after this run] Key,DivisionPoint,Kohs etc.address an entirely different niche market,although most of us don't necessarly invest in these models I believe there exceptional level of detail does influence the large mfgrs. The huge strides in the detail of the HO mfgs ready to run market tends to bear this out.JMHO

Ask any dealer and they will tell you transition period is the most popular.  I cannot argue with that even though I have no interest in it.  I like contemporary stuff.  Ask why Lionel is making their 50th version of the Big Boy (and it will sell out)?  Ask why the biggest success for 3rd Rail this year is the Jawn Henry.  People complain about how big things these things are and how silly they look on short radius curves and yet that is what sells.

The steam folks say they want more small steam, 0-4-0s through 2-8-2s.  Guess what never gets lots of reservations and usually barely enough or not enough to make it happen?  So what people say they want and what they are willing to put their money where there mouth is are two totally different things.

Tower 55 was a disaster for Overland.  Ask Brian Marsh and he will have nothing nice to say about it.  It was mostly DCC related.  He was so happy to offload it.  He was the first with off the shelf high end DCC plastic offerings.  People complained about how expensive everything was and how this nit or the other was wrong...   Wrong horn, wrong bell, wrong lights.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Sound familiar?

And they were not reliable because DCC of the time was not reliable.  The biggest reason why he backed out of DCC for the O Scale SD70Aces was because there is still not a standard large scale DCC interface and he wasn't going to go through that again.  That is all our fault for not participating the in the NMRA committees that make those standards.

IF there was a market for this stuff then maybe it would be done.  Truth is there is not a market for it: get over it.

Why maybe.  I asked Scott about making articulated 53' well cars and containers.  Gave him all the research to propose to manufacturers.  Turns out the design folks that did the Kato HO cars are the same folks who designed the Lionel Husky stack cars so getting really good designs was easy.  The project ended up being a no go.  Why?

Because all of 3rd Rails manufacturers are brass centric sub businesses.  And they said

We don't do die casting

We don't do pad printing

We don't do repeated runs of things.

All of the 3rd Rail and GGD locomotives and cars are individually hand decorated and the manufacturers have no desire to change that.

In short, they all agreed they would be too popular.   So here we have a situation where there definitely is a market and yet...  Why?

Because,  Lionel, MTH and Atlas make what they want to make, not what there is a demand for.

And if you talk to any of the plastic "mass" marketers, in any scale, off the record, they will ALL tell you they dislike dealing with uberscale folks like me, quite intensely actually.  Years ago the Intermountains and the Red Cabooses filled that void.  But then everyone wanted the accuracy and finish of brass RTR for the price of Railking.

Now even the brass folks are slimming down their American O Scale offerings to more hard core folks like me and one of the Asian Manufacturers said why the best.  "Don't like dealing with Americans, they all want everything for cheap."

Super detail, regular detail, that is the question, Answer. Weathering. I think a good weathering job will hide many ?s about detail. Also, standing back a bit will help. Amazing how the eyes follow the engine around and the cars get 2nd billing. It is nice Atlas helps make the cars look real good in the master series, a fact that got me to the 2 rail market from HO (2 rail). It is hard to think coming from HO to O scale and think of 3 rail trains. 2 rail was a natural fit. When I was in HO I did buy a couple UP DD40s by prec. in O scale as they caught my eye big time.Alway been mantle pieces)  It was that **** Pasadena Nmra show that turned my head. It wasn't till I could enjoy O scale in the early 2000s when I ran into Atlas cars as I was looking to buy brass box cars from Pecos at $330 ( one or 2 a year)  I switched scale then as I could enjoy O and at a price point I could live with.  

Phill

As noted several times in the thread, the innovation has already been achieved in many cases in other scales, primarily HO and N scales.   Certainly with the older brass offerings from the 90's and early 2000's.  I feel importers like OMI always step up the quality of the pieces they run as do the non-brass importers.

I think more than any other scale, Locomotives in O scale look, feel and operate that much better when they are made from metals.  The SD70ACe/M-2 hoods of the recent OMI run right next to an MTH or Lionel mostly plastic hood is not even close in terms which one looks more like the real thing, and I'm not just talking about fidelity of the details.  The look and feel of metal, the non plastic finish just screams more realistic in my opinion. 

That being said, I own both, as also mentioned, it's a price vs quality vs. availability situation.  I feel a big area where plastic importers have a decent lead over the brass importers is in the operation, electronics and sound for those railroaders who enjoy that aspect of the hobby.  

Originally Posted by hibar:

Shame they are out of O Scale.  Would have been nice to see what a proper GE ES would have looked like.

Originally Posted by rdunniii:

Perfectly fine, too many choices and I'd rather put in my own CC or not.

I know that having machinist make the molds for the injection molding is not cheap. The more detail the higher the cost to make. so i would imagine making any run of a car or locomotive has some risk involved if it doesn't sell well because of the potential loss in revenue from all the tooling required.

but with the new tech from 3d Printing and sterolithography getting better i think we have something to look forward too. we just need some new smart entrepreneurs to make a small shop with some 3d printers and a few CNC milling and lathe machines and they can print locomotives and cars on demand as customers order them. good thing about CAD files vs Injection molds is - that they don't cost loads of money and don't wear out over time.

these ideas has just been a thought of mine over that past couple days. could be more to it that I'm missing though.

Good point!  We have a maker bot in our company MadSci lab and I've been thinking about printing some patterns for replacement fixed pilots on MTH locos for a long while.  Problem is I have to make the drawing up.  The pattern would be used to make wax molds so I could cast them in brass.  I gave up when I saw Joe casting fixed pilots with resin.

 Oh no Mike! Don't let my fumbling do that.

I was advised to try a third resin to help. The one that is the thinnest might work better.

I can use Sketchup pretty decent, if you give me some dimensions i could try and make you up one? would be fascinating to see it eventually cast in brass.

If importers stop importing then we will all be on the same plane, rich or not. Then it will be how many toys one has like those in HO where many buy buy buy. 

John,

Very perceptive observations! I have taken the liberty of bolding some high points of your post and they are RIGHT ON!

In my experience (I'm an old ), getting any more than a couple people to agree on anything in this hobby is a major feat......and if you ask a week later half of them will have changed their mind!

Regards,

Simon

Jeff,

It was a leftover that I bought and it's now my favorite.  And the undercarriage is where I'm trying to "improve" my Lionels.

Joe,

I would bet you an Overland will out pull any 2-rail MTH.  Mike,  any opinion on this?