Dave_C posted:Just curious if you have tried running it with the Odyssey off ? Could the jerkiness at slow speed be something in the driver board rather than mechanical.
Good idea, I'll try it.
Dave_C posted:Just curious if you have tried running it with the Odyssey off ? Could the jerkiness at slow speed be something in the driver board rather than mechanical.
I definitely don't think it is mechanical. I've manually spun the wheels via the flywheel a full rotation in each direction and it is glass smooth. I'll be curious to see if it improves once I get some good traction tires on it.
Just picked up mine (B&M) from Charlie Ro's this afternoon and wouldn't you know, it wobble's and run's jerky at low speed. I looked to see if there is an on/off switch for the odyssey but don't see it, the run/program switch is located where the owners manual shows it to be. Also when I assigned the locomotive an I.D. it will only display & run in cab-1 mode! Am I forgetting something like a little orange memory module, don't see one here in the box? Thanks in advance for any help.
MICHAEL464 posted:Just picked up mine (B&M) from Charlie Ro's this afternoon and wouldn't you know, it wobble's and run's jerky at low speed. I looked to see if there is an on/off switch for the odyssey but don't see it, the run/program switch is located where the owners manual shows it to be. Also when I assigned the locomotive an I.D. it will only display & run in cab-1 mode! Am I forgetting something like a little orange memory module, don't see one here in the box? Thanks in advance for any help.
Yeah no on/off odyssey switch. Make sure you selected legacy when you set it up in the cab2. I would return it charlesro for warranty repair. I know the tech and he’ll fix your traction tire issue which is causing the wobble.
as for the jerky running, mine seems to do it every quarter turn. Also after sitting for a couple of days it was locked up again and giving a fault one. So Monday it gets shipped.
Gary, I forgot about Lionel having eliminating the memory module. I set things up manually and added smoke fluid, wow except for the wobbling & jerkiness issues the loco sounded awesome & smoked really good. But what is that noise?, sounds like something rubbing or scraping up in the shell of the engine, maybe some loose wire's rubbing against the motor? Gee just like my new Amtrak F40 I bought a few months ago. I turned the sound down and yup something inside is rubbing. All of a sudden I notice smoke billowing out from under the loco, must be a bubble in the stack from the smoke fluid but its still discharging a large column of smoke. Oh no I thought I put in Lionel's premium pine scented smoke fluid not the "Burning up electronics" scent. Oh well, back to Lionel it will go just like my F40. Cheers.
It could be possible that a gear was poorly machined. On my Lionel Polar RR GP7, I had to replace one of the trucks due to a bad idler gear that kept causing it to bind. I actually removed the offending gear from that truck so I could run it on 3 axles until I could get the parts. Unfortunately I bought it almost 6 years after it was produced, so though it was brand new, it was out of warranty.
That being said, sending it out for repair is probably the best option while the repairs are free under warranty.
superwarp1 posted:... as for the jerky running, mine seems to do it every quarter turn. Also after sitting for a couple of days it was locked up again and giving a fault one. So Monday it gets shipped.
Ughhh... there's nothing like traveling where the rubber meets the road. We get all excited by terrific expectations built up by the catalogs each season -- only to be let down when we put the locomotives on the track. 
I'm finding with the construction of my new layout that a few accessories have needed some tender loving care as well. And one (a Lionel oil derrick) was DOA out of the box -- but we only now discovered that, since it was boxed in storage all these years. Certainly not a show-stopper, but disappointing nonetheless. 
So watch out all you folks who are stashing your purchases for that big dream layout some day. There may be gremlins lurking amidst some components in storage.
Hope everything works out in the end, Gary.
I repeat part of an earlier post to this thread, "If, out of the box, an inexpensive 1:220 rtr Z gauge starter set steam locomotive can run flawlessly like a Swiss watch with no binding whatsoever of its diminutive gears, valve assembly, and 5-pole motor with its extremely small mechanism made of intricate parts with ultra close machined tolerances can be manufactured and assembled to run smoothly and problem free without binding, why can't a much larger 1:48 O gauge locomotive be manufactured to do the same? Why such disproportionate quality control between these two scales?
I’m not trying to make excuses for Lionel but if their product was made to the same standards and in Europe as Märklin I would suspect we would be paying considerably more for our trains. As much as I would like to think we could still produce these expensive locomotives here in the USA I have to wonder if the end product would be any better and if it would still be an old MPC era rehashed product? Yes I’m disappointed with the problems with recent offerings but I have a considerable amount of Lionel product made back in the 70’s through the 90’s that can’t even begin to compare to the amazing stuff we can buy today.
Enjoy
Ok so I picked up the CV mogul yesterday. We ran it in the shop and it exhibited the jerking motion Gary described. My friend bought the B&M and his seemed to run somewhat smoother.
Ok brought them home and just tried running the CV. Running in Legacy and I did notice the jerking motion at low speeds up to about speed step 30. Interestingly, the behavior seemed less noticeable in the roll step which is the slowest you can run in legacy. I tried different momentum settings but I don't think it makes much difference. Runs fine in the slow speed step and above . The sound chuffs seemed to be about normal. Everything else worked on this loco as it should in Legacy. I also some some wobbling on the track as it ran. Kind of like the prototype so it seems. Thinkink that is the tire issue.
There is good news . I did not have any locking up like Gary . No flashes and stoppage. The second point is a complement to Lionel. I saw the pre production sample at York and mentioned to the Lionel folks that the headlight position on the CV was offset from center on the boiler front but not as high as they showed. They repositioned the light and it looks more like the CV. Thank you Lionel
Now that Gary is sending his back , perhaps Lionel will get keener insight regarding this engines behavior. I was always impressed with the slow speed smoothness with Legacy but we don't quite have it with this one. Maybe Dave Olsen after you check out Garys loco, perhaps you can advise us on an easy fix that can be done locally to improve performance. If we have to send it back well then so be it.
Let us know Dave
thank you for your help
We're going to look into this tomorrow. While I don't believe it to be a code issue, we're still going to check it out. I'm leaning towards traction tires for the few engines that are running jerky. If they're too big, that could be the issue.
Will advise what we find. Apologies for those having issues.
Dave Olson posted:We're going to look into this tomorrow. While I don't believe it to be a code issue, we're still going to check it out. I'm leaning towards traction tires for the few engines that are running jerky. If they're too big, that could be the issue.
Will advise what we find. Apologies for those having issues.
Would also like to know. Mine has a noticeable lurch to it as well. It seems to smooth out around speed step 30, per the Legacy remote.
When K-Line started installing their Cruise in their later production engines, some of them exibited this characteristic. It was caused by plastic flash in some of the vanes of the speed sensor. Lionel has adopted this type of sensor with Legacy.
Might be worth a closer look.
Pete
Dave Olson posted:
We're going to look into this tomorrow. While I don't believe it to be a code issue, we're still going to check it out. I'm leaning towards traction tires for the few engines that are running jerky. If they're too big, that could be the issue.
Will advise what we find. Apologies for those having issues.
You could use mine as a case study
Thank you Dave. Hoping that it is a simple fix. Keep us posted.
Last week I received my Lionel Legacy Rutland Mogil from Patrick's Trains. I got a chance to try it out on my test track on Saturday. Haven't had a chance to bring it to the club and let it stretch it's legs. I'm running conventional since I don't have TMCC or Legacy.
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SJC posted:Hot Water posted:RICKO,
Luckily these models are relatively inexpensive, i.e. cheap, so such issues are to be expected?
I'd hardly call a $600+ engine "cheap".................
I believe he was joking.
I feel for you guys as I had issues with other new engines. I'm glad my new Legacy B6 runs very smooth. It's my first steamer.
Update:
We've gone over the engineering sample engines and the jerkiness is not prevalent. They run very smoothly. The traction tires are the exact same as what was used on the production run, so I don't believe that to be the issue. Someone also mentioned the side rod bolts might have shoulders too small, but I found them to be plenty wide enough.
I'm waiting for production samples and should have them tomorrow.
One thing to note is that this loco is not backdrivable like most Legacy engines. This wouldn't cause the jerkiness that's being seen, but just wanted people to know that.
Gary - I believe you said yours was also locking up? If it's doing more than just stuttering, then you have another issue and it should come back to us.
I'll update when I know more.
Dave Olson posted:
One thing to note is that this loco is not backdrivable like most Legacy engines.
Hmmm. Interesting.
I think this would be the first legacy Loco without back drivable gears.
Dave Olson posted:
One thing to note is that this loco is not backdrivable like most Legacy engines. This wouldn't cause the jerkiness that's being seen, but just wanted people to know that.
@Dave Olson your presence on this forum is great. But in the future I wouldn't mind seeing "back-drivable worm gearing" listed as a feature on the box. I do like this feature, and there's no definitive guide as to which locos have it, and which don't. It's one of the unique advantages your products have over some competing brands. Thanks!
Thanks Dave for the update.
You mentioned that you didn't think the tires might be a factor. I think some thought that the tires might be associated with he engine wobbling on the track during movement. Mine has a bit of a wobble.
as for the hesitation and jerky motion. I noticed it seemed less pronounced in the roll speed step than in the restricted speed step accelerating. In the slow speed step it seemed to smooth out. I think that the hesitation seemed to be miticgated by varying the throttle in the speed step range.
The other thing I noticed was the hesitation seemed less pronounced if you hit the roll step while travelling at speed and let the engine slow down in legacy .
Hope this helps. Keep us posted
Dave Olson posted:Update:
We've gone over the engineering sample engines and the jerkiness is not prevalent. They run very smoothly. The traction tires are the exact same as what was used on the production run, so I don't believe that to be the issue. Someone also mentioned the side rod bolts might have shoulders too small, but I found them to be plenty wide enough.
I'm waiting for production samples and should have them tomorrow.
One thing to note is that this loco is not backdrivable like most Legacy engines. This wouldn't cause the jerkiness that's being seen, but just wanted people to know that.
Gary - I believe you said yours was also locking up? If it's doing more than just stuttering, then you have another issue and it should come back to us.
I'll update when I know more.
Thanks Dave, watch my video. . Yes it's locking up, has the jerkiness and a wobble I fixed by replacing the traction tires. Engine leaves today for Lionel.
I received two of these beautiful moguls last week and the whistles are just fantasic! Thank you Lionel. But, when run both were wobbly and jerky, Everett #11 much more than Lakawanna #565. So much so that the bell swung wildly when running.
I have refrained from commenting until I have been able to do some in depth investigation using information from this terrific thread!
The problem was more pronounced at lower speeds. I observed my ammeter on my Lionel ZW-L transformer and yes there was an increase of amperage with every jerk, from 1.9 to 2.1 amps (I had a few lighted passengers cars on at the time, not just the locomotive). Not a fatal amount but not right. And, every jerk occurred in cadence with every rotation of the drivers, I could tell by listening to the chugging while watching the ammeter. Could not detect ANY binding in the running gear. I changed the traction tires to a 'thinner in thickness but wider in width' tread (MTH Mikado spares) with general improvement in bumpiness but the rotational jerk was still there, so much so that at startup the engine at times would stall with "1 blinking light", which I would then reset.
I popped the shell off, placed the chassis on the track and gently turned the motor flywheel with my fingers, remembering that earlier on in this thread someone mentioned that the play in the first set of drivers seemed excessive. THERE WAS WITH EVERY ROTATION OF THE DRIVE WHEELS AN EASILY DETECTABLE BINDING OF THE RUNNING GEAR, AT THE SAME POSITION EVERY TIME. Upon close inspection with a dental pick I found that the main rod segment between the middle driver and the first driver on the fireman's side would bind. I suppose at low speeds this is enough to jerk or stall the engine, and higher speeds possibly the locomotive can just roll through this point with the additional momentum.
By the way, my conventional moguls from a previous release a few years back have very little play in those drivers, much closer tolerances between the drive rod and the shoulder of the pin holding it to the driver, it looks to me.
Rick
Good information Rick.
Good info Rick. Have you checked to see how well the drivers are quartered? That may be the problem here.
Pete
Thanks Rick. Good to know. I could not detect any binding in my engine and neither could my dealer. My engine also has a noticeable "lurch" or "jerk" to it at slow speeds.
Makes me feel really great about the ~$3,000 in preorders I have out of the most recent Lionel catalog.......
Hi Pete,
How would one precisely check for quartering? I eyeballed it and it looks as close to 90 degrees as I can tell.
Rick
Rick, If the binding was caused by the drivers badly out of quarter it should be visibly off. If not, this might not be the problem. One or two degrees off might not cause it to bind. On the other hand if it was a problem with the siderods then I would expect it to bind twice a revolution.
Pete
Rick,
As I put in an earlier thread, my B&M Mogul had a bad wobble on the test track at my LHS and I ended up replacing the traction tires with the spares in the package, but it still doesn't look just right to me. It doesn't seem to have a pronounced jerkiness like others have posted, but I have noticed that the response time between turning the red knob and the engine actually moving seems to have a delay in it - unlike my other Legacy engines - perhaps due to some play in the rods. I'll check further tonight. I took the shell off and the flywheel seems pretty smooth.
My main problem is with the smoke unit. I noticed that there was a "bubble" at the bottom of the brass stack on top of the smoke unit that was apparently preventing it from smoking. I removed it and it ran fine. I wonder if that was enough resistance to trigger the voltage sensor and start the blinking light fault sequence.
There are lots of different MTH tire diameters and widths to choose from. I'll check the wheel dimensions tonight, but do you know the MTH part number or diameter and width of the traction tires you used ? Thanks.
Rich
Hey Rich! I don't know the part no., but I found these spare tires, and curiously I have a bunch of them, in a bag with other parts I have labeled for "Premier Mikado 2-8-2 NKP with PS-2 and Hi-Rail Wheels Item No. 20-3183-1". Hope this helps. I bought that mikado possibly 14 years ago. The tires at first seemed just a bit too wide for the groove in the Legacy Mogul but they seemed to have settled in there beautifully. I also wrote on the bag that they're for a 65" diameter wheel, I must have measured that mikado and came up with that, I did measure the Lionel Mogul and came up with 61" OD. (O scale inches, that is).
Rick
Thanks, Rick. MTH doesn't have an exploded view of that engine and they list about eight different tires as available in various diameters and widths, so I'll measure the Mogul tonight and then order a set.
Hopefully, you can find a way to eliminate the binding in yours.
Richie C. posted:Thanks, Rick. MTH doesn't have an exploded view of that engine and they list about eight different tires as available in various diameters and widths, so I'll measure the Mogul tonight and then order a set.
Hopefully, you can find a way to eliminate the binding in yours.
MTH has a tire chart here.
https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ire_Chart_020414.pdf
Pete
Not a good advertisement for BTO IMHO...
Rick, did you compare the drivers and siderods before swapping them out? If so, were there any obvious differences?
Pete
D500 posted:The Maerklin loco: "it runs flawlessly like a Swiss watch with no binding whatsoever..."
True, I'm sure, and not to defend this Mogul or any other product from any company, but 95% of my O-gauge locos (all brands) have "run flawlessly" also - even some used and banged-around ones. I have a substantial collection, and I'd need a meaningful sample of Maerklin equipment to know their problem rate. I guarantee you that there is one - everybody has one.
My banged-up, second-hand Lionel AC-12 Cab-forward - after I re-attached some parts, tightened the loose cab and straightened out the scraping pilot (dropped?) does, indeed, "run like a watch", Swiss or otherwise. A big, heavy watch.
My Lionel Mogul has been fine from the start. I'm sure Superwarp's will be fine too.
I probably have 30 plus Marklin HO locomotives, both conventional and (Marklin) command control. I've not had any problems with the newer locomotives or those purchased new (or older used ones). I've had a problem with two used loks. One was given to me, one was bought very cheap. I knew they had problems when I received them and I was able to repair both. Both engines, similar in design, had a wire come loose from the commutator. A simple fix. I am surprised you guys put up with this quality issue. I've got two Lionel locomotives on order and am very concerned that they will be DOA. Frankly, I don't want the headaches of having to return an engine for repair.
Steve
Hi Pete,
To summarize, as an experiment to see where the binding was coming from on my Legacy Everett #11 2-6-0, which by the way caused that jump in amperage by 2 tenths of an amp on every rotation, I swapped out the first set of drivers with a set from a conventional Mogul I had on hand.
Yes Pete I saw differences in these assemblies- the pin or bolt with the shoulder holding the main rod to the wheel are not interchangeable with these two assemblies, the pin has a different size shoulder but also different size threads. Also the main rods have different size openings in their forward connecting hole also. Therefore I decided to drop out the front wheels complete with their pins and drive rods. What was interchangeable was where the drive rod connects to the crankpin on the middle set of drivers. Upon operation any binding was no longer present. So in the case of my Everett #11, I think I narrowed the problem down to either the drivers in front, or their quartering, or the pins/bolts with the shoulder, or the connecting rods. So I hope this information is of some help, I know it is not a solution, and this might not even be related to other folks' Moguls and their particular situations. But the conditions of steam locomotive drives can be terribly mysterious it seems.
Rick
Thanks Rick. It will be interesting to see how Lionel addresses this problem. In the meantime I will stick with my Odyssey version from 2004. Its one of the nicest running engines I have.
Pete
I didn't see any binding in the running gear like you did Rick but what you found is interesting. Being under warranty and not having the time or the desire to investigate further so I decided to let Lionel handle it. They will have it by friday but with York next week, I don't expect Dave will have time for a final solution until after the show. That's ok, I have tons of other projects and even more engines I can run while I wait.
superwarp1 posted:They will have it by friday but with York next week, I don't expect Dave will have time for a final solution until after the show. That's ok, I have tons of other projects and even more engines I can run while I wait.
We'll have an answer today. We checkout out your loco yesterday and are doing more testing. Stay tuned.
Hello all.
The traction tires are definitely too thin and do not completely fill the undercut in the wheel and are causing some swaying and in some cases hopping. For those who wish to change them please call customer service 586-949-4100 and ask for a pair of 6000242205 tires, these were used in the previous Moguls and fit perfectly. The CSRs will send them to you free of charge. We are still working on the solution to the jittering issue, it does not seem to be a binding issue or a traction tire issue as I have experimented in depth with 8 different Moguls and concluded it is not causing the jittering. There are some that I heard of that did have tires rubbing on the brake detail but are few. As Dave said stay tuned, we are on it.
Thank you for your patience
