Skip to main content

134 replies

Brick made an angry pop when the breaker kicked.

D 1drummerOGR Forum Member

I was moving my DCS, to test a new section of track.

I have the Brick from a 6-37947 going to FIXED VOLTAGE IN on my TIU

I believe the out put leads from the Brick may have touched 

now I cannot reset the breaker.

 

Is this a repairable issue with a new CIRCUIT BREAKER ??

I get 4 VAC..from the output..And no change if I hold the red button in.

 

 

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

 

fastman posted:

sounds like you lunched the breaker. Easy fix

The brick with the GW-180 is the PowerHouse 180. It's not a simple circuit breaker, it's actually an electronic circuit with a relay.  It's actually not an "easy fix", you're first going to have to see what went wrong.  Yes, it will require opening up the brick.

 Lionel Powerhouse 180 Schematic

Attachments

Show
Images (1)
  • Lionel Powerhouse 180 Schematic
gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Not anything earth shattering, I just use that schematic and poke around to see why it's not working.  Of course I have all the tools and test equipment necessary, that makes the job easier.  From the description, I'd be guessing it should be something fairly basic.  The object of the exercise is to see why the relay doesn't function to allow output power.  It might be that the contacts welded when the short happened, that occasionally happens to relays with excessive current.  I'd also check the output AC right at the transformer secondary, some Lionel stuff has an internal fusible link in the windings that goes with an overload.  Hopefully, that's not the issue, it's a non-replaceable part.

gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Interesting observation, I wonder if they thought of that when they built it?  A PTC internally might be enough to keep it from cooking things, that might be a good thing to add.  It might makes sense to add an inrush current limiter after the tap for the 8V to allow the breaker circuitry to always be active before full current is placed on the output.  Something like the Ametherm SL12 1R010 would probably work well.

George SGeorge SOGR Forum Member
gunrunnerjohn posted:

The valuable part for most is the brick.  It can probably be fixed, but you'd have to open it up and dig into it.  Yes, the screws are under the rubber feet.

I opened one of mine. The screws are slotted, but have a safety 'notch' to prevent amateurs from opening them with ordinary flat head screw drivers. I used my Dremel on an old screw driver to create the notch in the blade. Then it was easy to remove the screws. I'm sure GRJ has the professional driver set. 

George

D 1drummerOGR Forum Member

I  am an Electronics Tech, and  have all the proper tools..

but in today's plug and play board replacement cost management agenda..the only time I utilize my Electronics Degree to its fullest is on my Trains...

Fortunately I got the Degree to make MONEY, and since I'm over educated and WELL PAID, I can live with the limits of my Skill Set Requirements of my job.

I install every type of Electronics Communicating System from Fire to Door Security..

I can use an OHM meter to resolve most issues, or a Specially Designed Tester for Specific applications, and most issues are easily identified..and usually a result of a carpenter and his screw gun, or a plumber and his torch...

This schematic is lacking information I need..like Voltage at every component..

and there is a triangle just after Capacitor C2 showing +8 V...which I will assume is a test point only..

and "RIB" I am just guessing is the side of the cord with the little rib..which is usually Neutral..

 

the PIMA brick is open for all to see..

I see no physical signs..

no burns on components where the Smoke escaped..

no loose solder points

no capacitor confetti

 

I am getting 5.4 VAC output across Red and Blue..If I'm not far off ..I believe that should be a step down Transformer, producing 18 VAC at that point..

I've googled

and printed the schematic..

now I'm tired..went back to work after  9 days of Vacation..which was seriously MARRED by a loud angry pop...

I will continue my quest later tomorrow...

If any one feels like they can fill in the voltage drops at each component..I would use my clout to get you a better berth in heaven...

assuming that's where you're going.. and you are really patient and can wait for death to arrive before you collect...and if you believe in Heaven.. then you can certainly believe I have clout..which I do..and fortunately, this is one of the many sins, JC hung on a cross to pay for..I am just assuring He is getting His moneys worth..and if you aint laughing.. then pray for a sense of humor...

After all, Jesus hung on a cross before He was 35, what have you done with YOUR little life, Slacker?

 

http://www.harrisonelectronics...ay-H100FDC-SPDT2.pdf

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/d...671/WINGS/78L08.html

S stan2004OGR Forum Member
1drummer posted:
...

and there is a triangle just after Capacitor C2 showing +8 V...which I will assume is a test point only..

the triangle with +8V connects to other triangles with +8V.  If the circuit is functioning you should read +8V DC at that point (relative to the Blue wire).

...

I am getting 5.4 VAC output across Red and Blue..If I'm not far off ..I believe that should be a step down Transformer, producing 18 VAC at that point..

if you are only getting 5.4V AC at Red and Blue instead of 18V AC (and nothing is getting hot in the circuit (i.e., there is no loading of the transformer) then I'm guessing your transformer failed.  if that's non-replaceable as earlier suggested then it seems you're at a dead-end.

...

If any one feels like they can fill in the voltage drops at each component..

Note that if you are only getting 5.4V AC, you won't read +8V DC at the point mentioned above; you'll probably read something like 6-7V DC...though if the non-replaceable transformer failed I'm not sure the point of making additional measurements.

 

 

rrmanrrmanOGR Forum Member

Not a very robust design especially if transformer link pops with this kind of overload.  But I guess you have to meet the price point with a design using the least lowest cost components. And how often would you expect the brick to start up into a dead short, and can't design for every possible contingency otherwise you get into gold plated $$$ brick.

Sorta like a Muntz TV if anyone knows about those little devils.

OmanOmanOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

It does not appear to be a "fail safe" design. Any one of many components could have rendered the over-current protection inoperable, yet the output would still be live. It's possible that the over-current protection wasn't working prior to when the output short occurred. How would one know, unless you tested it with an excessive load and not a dead short.

D 1drummerOGR Forum Member

so, in essence.. Lionel made a product that really doesn't offer the protection it should, in the circuit and the warranty..

I sent them a note..

seeking cost and part # for the Step Down with integrated Link..

I suggested they should just warranty the product.

 

I am thankful I have MTH transformers..including a Z4000 I got used, really cheap, because the display is haywire..it shows outputs that are no where near the true output measured at the terminals..but it is not affecting its output..and not cost effective to address...

and its only on one side..which when I tested it, found that if you use the horn, it will not shut off...but it will power my TIU just fine.

 

will update when?/ if? I hear back from lionel.

George SGeorge SOGR Forum Member
PLCProf posted:

Well!

Decided to put my money where my mouth was, I figured maybe Lionel knew something that I didn't; maybe the resistance of the output lead was enough to let the circuitry work even with a short or something like that.

Took a spare brick, shorted the output and brought it up slowly on the variac. It tripped twice at about 45 amps on the secondary, about 30% primary voltage, third time I got the nasty pop! Primary is now open as measured at the plug. Guess I'll pull it apart and look for the fusible link.

As they say, the operation was a success, but the patient died.

I will note that the "legal" purpose of overcurrent protection is to protect life and property, so in that regard the protection appears satisfactory.

OK - Call me an idiot.............

So, what is the scenario where this happens, a large peice of metal across the rails when power comes on with voltage already dialed up?  I had mine hooked up to my ZW-C last night. I had a short to a metal frame on an accessory light when I turned the power on. Voltage was set to 7.5 volts when I applied power.  My brick's breaker popped immediately.  I tried again, same thing.  I started disconnecting things and found the short. Is there a scenario in my situation where I could have blown the brick?

Thanks,

George

George SGeorge SOGR Forum Member
PLCProf posted:

OK lots to talk about.

As posted above, I shorted the output of a PH-180, energized it, and got the "angry pop." However, things did not turn out as they were assumed.

1. The 120 VAC side had no continuity through the plug. It was assumed that a fusible link in the transformer had failed, but this was not the case. The open was in the switch! In attached photo "Switch" the upper left contact is extremely loose and discolored. Switch was unwired and bypassed, resistance across the line plug now read about 1.2 ohms. Unit was energized, but output measured with a DVM was only 6 volts.

2. I identified the transformer secondary leads under the circuit board, and they showed full voltage. A careful review of the board. however, showed a soot flash in the vicinity of D2. D2 tested good. It was then noted that there was almost no solder on the pad immediately to the left of D2, which is the connection for one of the relay contacts. Careful measurements showed no continuity from the relay pin to the pad. (photo "Board before"). This connection was resoldered (photo "Board after) and the unit tested out fine (photo "Testing.") Apparently the overcurrent vaporized what little solder may have been there to begin with.

 

2 morals to this story-

1. PH-180 doesn't like to be turned on with the output shorted.

2. Fusible link in the transformer may not be the source of failure.

 

Gotta run, heading over to the supply house to see if I can get a new switch.

Easy fix.  I replaced a switch on one of mine, just to get the LED working, and I am a novice.

George

Last edited by George S
cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
PLCProf posted:

OK lots to talk about.

As posted above, I shorted the output of a PH-180, energized it, and got the "angry pop." However, things did not turn out as they were assumed.

1. The 120 VAC side had no continuity through the plug. It was assumed that a fusible link in the transformer had failed, but this was not the case. The open was in the switch! In attached photo "Switch" the upper left contact is extremely loose and discolored. Switch was unwired and bypassed, resistance across the line plug now read about 1.2 ohms. Unit was energized, but output measured with a DVM was only 6 volts.

2. I identified the transformer secondary leads under the circuit board, and they showed full voltage. A careful review of the board. however, showed a soot flash in the vicinity of D2. D2 tested good. It was then noted that there was almost no solder on the pad immediately to the left of D2, which is the connection for one of the relay contacts. Careful measurements showed no continuity from the relay pin to the pad. (photo "Board before"). This connection was resoldered (photo "Board after) and the unit tested out fine (photo "Testing.") Apparently the overcurrent vaporized what little solder may have been there to begin with.

 

2 morals to this story-

1. PH-180 doesn't like to be turned on with the output shorted.

2. Fusible link in the transformer may not be the source of failure.

 

Gotta run, heading over to the supply house to see if I can get a new switch.

This one? I found a couple on ebay once and can send you one if you need. No charge .IMG_1257IMG_1258

I also replaced the LED on one once, I think I added a diode to protect the LED from the reverse half cycle as well. Seems like there was a resistor in the lead to the LED in the wiring...

Here it is, what I found,

IMG_1259

Attachments

Hide
Images (3)
  • IMG_1257
  • IMG_1258
  • IMG_1259
cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

"Thank you for the kind offer, but I just got back and they had exactly what I needed. It wasn't free, but I got the part I needed late on a Saturday afternoon! Even got the correct wire terminal one, not the PC mount version as in the original."

Ah yes, the exact one. The ones I have are terminal lugs too. Good to know the switch is available.

George SGeorge SOGR Forum Member
NYC,SUBWAY TRANSIT SIGNAL posted:

GunrunnerJohn:

 I was saying that Band Good has those type Switches too.

Someone else above posted info about where to found parts not a word from you.

If you have a problem with me.

 If, so. Please give me a call so we can air things out here.

I remain. John 848-992-2157 

I don't think any of us knew it was a switch when you posted. The thread was at a point where no parts could fix the unit, so your post at the time seemed more like an advertisement. I don't think GRJ meant anything more than confusion at the time.

John DeAltoJohn DeAltoOGR Forum Member

George , Thanks !

But, I don't have anything to do with that Company other then trying save the group a little money on electronics parts.

To support the Hobby.  Its been other type comments prior.

 Not taking anything away here but sometime GunrunnerJohn derail himself.

I read all of the help he give to the forum.

It's like who died and left him the Boss.

Ok , enough said.  Thanks, John 

 

Last edited by John DeAlto
John DeAltoJohn DeAltoOGR Forum Member
EscapeRocksEscapeRocksOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
NYC,SUBWAY TRANSIT SIGNAL posted:

Gunrunnerjohn,

You mean, I get one up on you, I don't believe it.

Please check out the Web-site they a have a lot of good stiff cheap, and offer free shipping.

Have a nice weekend. 

Good luck, John

 

Before you go off on Gunrunner...   you may want to check yourself.  Your original post said to check out "BAND GOOD"

I couldn't find it either.  Why?  Because Band Good doesn't exist.

As you have posted in your latest reply, it's Bang Good. 

If you posted that properly the first time, no one would have questioned its veracity.

FM F MaguireOGR Forum Member

Explanation of Brick handling a short--it's cascade protection (involving a 2d breaker downstream)

Hi, guys--

First, this was a really good and useful discussion.  PLCProf really came close toward the end (cutting the plug off, not using as intended).  Unfortunately the real cause may turn out to be the on-off switch in the primary (OP's brick), which will cloud the real issue, which is a more common trouble, I think.  Notice that one of the posters (different from OP) actually damaged his own 180w PH transformer by putting a solid short on it, on the load side (ie, layout side).

Well, right to it.  With the special plug on the 18v output, you can only plug into certain devices.  Perhaps the third (so-called "unused") pin in this plug ti arranged so that you cannot physically plug a 180w brick into a voltage regulating device that can handle only 7 amps (ie, that requires the 135w brick, etc).

These are things like the PowerMaster (PM) controllers, and the later ZW transformers electronically-varied output voltage.  Some of the earlier such devices may have had paired triacs, or later, MOSFET transistors.  What I noticed in one was that the triac or MOSFET (forgot which there, but think it was a MOSFET) was rated for 35 amps although used in a 7-amp circuit.  It would be 50% duty cycle with the pair, so it could actually handle 70 amps for one cycle, if the heat-sinking was up to that.  But it's more like how many cycles at 70 amp.  There was a large aluminum fin attached; I guessed at its effectiveness.  With a 77-amp max short current from a 135w brick, this looked adequate.  Later, I found the same 35w chips used in a 10-amp utilization device, similar heat-sinking. 

Typically the sensing was only across one chip.  So the interrupt time could be up to nearly two cycles.  At the same, I realized I had initially overlooked the 50% duty cycle also.  BTW, "Typically" is an engineering term that means "the one I looked at." 

The importance of this is that these devices (chips) burn up so fast that their own ability to interrupt current must be used to protect themselves.  So we know that a likely speed of operation is 2-cycles at max short circuit output.

So, what is needed is to analyze Cam's circuit drawing, with a view of seeing how long the time delay to open the circuit is (the requirement is that any current over the amount necessary to output over 180w be interrupted in not over 60 seconds).   I realized after a cursory look at the circuit that I actually once knew how to do this.  What a shock.  Someone here make this calculation, and save me the effort.  The time delay will then only require that the relay carry the max short for two cycles, which should be easier than closing into such a short, and easier still than opening one.  I suggest using 100 amps as the max short.  Then the current transformer in the diagram produces 1/100 ampere, making calculation in one's head easier.  The open triangles indicate connection to the 8-volt bus, including its supply.

UL 697, Toy Transformers, was changed immediately prior to the first brick (135w) to "not require a transformer to interrupt all the current it may produce..." contrary to the previous requirement,  So, the Lionel brick is actually compliant, and not underprotected.  It is actually a means of reducing the total cost to users.   I've always recommended that MTH DCS users make their connections thru the line-side shed lock-on (the 10-amp version has binding posts inside on the output).  Although this is a very large supervised relay, its moving contact is still not so large that it's operation, unless intentionally delayed, would be subcycle.  BTW, cutting the plug off the brick voids its UL label.

--Frank

D 1drummerOGR Forum Member

So..what have we learned on this thread of mine

Spell check is important

Everything can be improved

And I was going to wait for a reply from Lionel before I take "noticeable warranty voiding" actions...

But my faith in their customer satisfaction agenda on this issue is not very high..And would probably only result in a remanufactured swap out

So, I'm going to jump in

S stan2004OGR Forum Member
PLCProf posted:

OK lots to talk about.

As posted above, I shorted the output of a PH-180, energized it, and got the "angry pop." However, things did not turn out as they were assumed.

1. ...In attached photo "Switch" the upper left contact is extremely loose and discolored....

2. ...Careful measurements showed no continuity from the relay pin to the pad. (photo "Board before")...

is this the loose terminal

So by loose upper left switch terminal, was it this one?  This diagram from Light Country as shown in cjack's photo so may not apply...but if so this appears to be one of the lamp terminals as opposed to a "load-carrying" terminals.  Since you are replacing the switch did you open it to see if the "pop" sound might was the low-current lamp terminal being, say, whacked loose?   Since you were getting no continuity thru the "load" terminals, it seems there would be something interesting to see!

Board before

So it appears it was the relay's "common" terminal pin that showed no continuity to its pad.  So if I understand the difference, the OP measured just under 6V AC right at Red and Blue...but you measured 6V AC at the output (after the relay).  I'm guessing (?) your 6V AC was capacitive coupling across the relay from 18V AC into your high-impedance DVM...whereas the OP's 6V AC measured at the transformer is a different coupling path...perhaps through the transformer itself?   Just curious your opinion.

Attachments

Hide
Images (2)
  • is this the loose terminal
  • Board before
Last edited by stan2004
cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Engineer-Joe posted:

If I could ask inside this post?

I have one brick that the LED light does not work. Quickly glancing at this post I don't see where I can buy this switch with the LED, if mine is bad.

Does Lionel sell it directly?

Is there someone else who I can buy one from?

and, can I install it or does it require special tools?

Sorry to interrupt.

Lifetime supply...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-X-S...5:g:5pAAAOSwyDxXhYLR

If you just want one, I'll send you one. Email me. You will have to deal with the resistor connected to the switch in your unit, and I added a diode to protect the LED from future burnouts...I guess.

cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
PLCProf posted:
cjack posted:
PLCProf posted

On my unit, the - terminal on the switch was connected directly to power line neutral, and the + terminal was connected to the transformer primary through a 1M resistor (no diode.)

1 Meg?

 

Yeah, that doesn't sound right, does it? Thought that's what it said but I didn't measure it, just moved it to the new switch.

Only four screws to take the cover off; I'll check it later. Gotta be accurate!

 

10K would be ok.

Engineer-JoeEngineer-JoeOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
cjack posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:

If I could ask inside this post?

I have one brick that the LED light does not work. Quickly glancing at this post I don't see where I can buy this switch with the LED, if mine is bad.

Does Lionel sell it directly?

Is there someone else who I can buy one from?

and, can I install it or does it require special tools?

Sorry to interrupt.

Lifetime supply...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-X-S...5:g:5pAAAOSwyDxXhYLR

If you just want one, I'll send you one. Email me. You will have to deal with the resistor connected to the switch in your unit, and I added a diode to protect the LED from future burnouts...I guess.

Thank you!

I will add the diode. When I looked at your link, another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-X-SP...%26sd%3D272305821045

 

cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the schematic I posted, there seems to be more than one version of this power brick.  They have an incandescent bulb in the switch, clearly the LED isn't powered from the 110V side, that would be pretty silly.

Mine was. It is an LED inside the AC line switch. There was a 15K resistor in series with it and no diode. So I put one in when I replaced the switch. I think that's why the LED burns out...go figure...

cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
cjack posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the schematic I posted, there seems to be more than one version of this power brick.  They have an incandescent bulb in the switch, clearly the LED isn't powered from the 110V side, that would be pretty silly.

Mine was. It is an LED inside the AC line switch. There was a 15K resistor in series with it and no diode. So I put one in when I replaced the switch. I think that's why the LED burns out...go figure...

What I'm wondering is if you limit the current to something small when the reverse cycle causes the LED to conduct, how many years can it survive? We used to use the breakdown on transistors to achieve very fast high voltage switching, but limited the current to something that didn't destroy the junction.

cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
stan2004 posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:
 
... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.

 

Note that the wiring diagram does not match!  

s-l1600

This is probably how I wired the new switch...CORRECTION, TURN THE 1N4003 AROUND! BOTH THE LED AND THE DIODE SHOULD POINT THE SAME WAY.

Replacement Switch

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Replacement Switch
Last edited by cjack
Engineer-JoeEngineer-JoeOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

BTW, I have used these bricks to power my layout for a few years now. It is 2 rail and I have had many shorts. The breaker always trips. I have had several times where I applied power, had a dead short on the layout, and the breaker tripped with no damage.

 With this record for me, I'm not sure how that many others are seeing this failure? Maybe different production runs are better? I apologize as I'm not good at electronics. I just try and follow along.

 My bricks have always protected themselves without failing. Just lucky?

cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Engineer-Joe posted:
cjack posted:
stan2004 posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:
 
... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.

 

Note that the wiring diagram does not match!  

s-l1600

This is probably how I wired the new switch...

Replacement Switch

So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?

I m watching football so I can't think.��

You're fine. Just wire it as above after the football is a faint memory. I MADE AN ERROR, TURN THE 1N4003 AROUND! SEE THE LATER POSTS. BOTH THE LED AND THE DIODE SHOULD POINT THE SAME WAY.

Last edited by cjack
S stan2004OGR Forum Member
Engineer-Joe posted:
cjack posted:
stan2004 posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:
... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.

Note that the wiring diagram does not match!  

s-l1600

This is probably how I wired the new switch...

 

So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?

Switch should be fine; it's just the eBay seller's own diagram does not match his photo.  I'd do what cjack suggests.  I think cjack's diagram needs to be corrected to show the 1N4003 diode facing the other way.  Also, note that the 10k resistor should be of the 1 Watt rating.  Most guys have a stash of only 1/2 Watt resistors so if that's what you have then, say, two 1/2 Watt resistors of 5.1k or 4.7k in series would work.  It can be a chore to buy just one 1 Watt resistor mail-order or wherever.

Replacement%20Switch

 

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Replacement%20Switch
cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
stan2004 posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:
cjack posted:
stan2004 posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:
... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.

Note that the wiring diagram does not match!  

s-l1600

This is probably how I wired the new switch...

 

So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?

Switch should be fine; it's just the eBay seller's own diagram does not match his photo.  I'd do what cjack suggests.  I think cjack's diagram needs to be corrected to show the 1N4003 diode facing the other way.  Also, note that the 10k resistor should be of the 1 Watt rating.  Most guys have a stash of only 1/2 Watt resistors so if that's what you have then, say, two 1/2 Watt resistors of 5.1k or 4.7k in series would work.  It can be a chore to buy just one 1 Watt resistor mail-order or wherever.

Replacement%20Switch

 

Oh yes! Thanks for catching that. 

D 1drummerOGR Forum Member
cjack posted:
PLCProf posted:

OK lots to talk about.

As posted above, I shorted the output of a PH-180, energized it, and got the "angry pop." However, things did not turn out as they were assumed.

1. The 120 VAC side had no continuity through the plug. It was assumed that a fusible link in the transformer had failed, but this was not the case. The open was in the switch! In attached photo "Switch" the upper left contact is extremely loose and discolored. Switch was unwired and bypassed, resistance across the line plug now read about 1.2 ohms. Unit was energized, but output measured with a DVM was only 6 volts.

2. I identified the transformer secondary leads under the circuit board, and they showed full voltage. A careful review of the board. however, showed a soot flash in the vicinity of D2. D2 tested good. It was then noted that there was almost no solder on the pad immediately to the left of D2, which is the connection for one of the relay contacts. Careful measurements showed no continuity from the relay pin to the pad. (photo "Board before"). This connection was resoldered (photo "Board after) and the unit tested out fine (photo "Testing.") Apparently the overcurrent vaporized what little solder may have been there to begin with.

 

2 morals to this story-

1. PH-180 doesn't like to be turned on with the output shorted.

2. Fusible link in the transformer may not be the source of failure.

 

Gotta run, heading over to the supply house to see if I can get a new switch.

This one? I found a couple on ebay once and can send you one if you need. No charge .IMG_1257IMG_1258

I also replaced the LED on one once, I think I added a diode to protect the LED from the reverse half cycle as well. Seems like there was a resistor in the lead to the LED in the wiring...

Here it is, what I found,

IMG_1259

Where did you locate the switch?

how much was it?

 

I need one, because mine has broken at the 1b lug..And no room to resolder..

 

S stan2004OGR Forum Member

 

1drummer posted:

Jumped in...

found a loose feeling in the wiring connection at 1b on the switch..it broke when I touched it...

But, I am getting continuity through the switch.

I also noticed a solder gap on the Zettler relay pin by the red wire.

OK, so the switch mechanically broke...so you need to replace the switch one way or the other. 

But as PLCProf asks, are you measuring 1 Ohm (or so) between the prongs of the AC plug with the switch in the "on" position??

And with continuity through the switch, are you still only measuring 5-6V AC across red-and-blue (the secondary) of the transformer before it gets to the relay??

 

 

Last edited by stan2004
cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
1drummer posted:
cjack posted:
PLCProf posted:

OK lots to talk about.

As posted above, I shorted the output of a PH-180, energized it, and got the "angry pop." However, things did not turn out as they were assumed.

1. The 120 VAC side had no continuity through the plug. It was assumed that a fusible link in the transformer had failed, but this was not the case. The open was in the switch! In attached photo "Switch" the upper left contact is extremely loose and discolored. Switch was unwired and bypassed, resistance across the line plug now read about 1.2 ohms. Unit was energized, but output measured with a DVM was only 6 volts.

2. I identified the transformer secondary leads under the circuit board, and they showed full voltage. A careful review of the board. however, showed a soot flash in the vicinity of D2. D2 tested good. It was then noted that there was almost no solder on the pad immediately to the left of D2, which is the connection for one of the relay contacts. Careful measurements showed no continuity from the relay pin to the pad. (photo "Board before"). This connection was resoldered (photo "Board after) and the unit tested out fine (photo "Testing.") Apparently the overcurrent vaporized what little solder may have been there to begin with.

 

2 morals to this story-

1. PH-180 doesn't like to be turned on with the output shorted.

2. Fusible link in the transformer may not be the source of failure.

 

Gotta run, heading over to the supply house to see if I can get a new switch.

This one? I found a couple on ebay once and can send you one if you need. No charge .IMG_1257IMG_1258

I also replaced the LED on one once, I think I added a diode to protect the LED from the reverse half cycle as well. Seems like there was a resistor in the lead to the LED in the wiring...

Here it is, what I found,

IMG_1259

Where did you locate the switch?

how much was it?

 

I need one, because mine has broken at the 1b lug..And no room to resolder..

 

Read the thread, there are a couple ebay links which sell the switches.

But first you need to determine that your transformer is ok.

FM F MaguireOGR Forum Member

OK...  Here is what happened to PLCProf's 180w brick (and keep in mind that he has made a great sacrifice to the cause):

First thing to know is that an "angry pop" is a short in the 120v side.  (See https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...ly=69425981492981028 for a factoid #2 that explains why the current involved is between 100 amps and 1000 amps.  My post is 12th one down, similar to my post above here on cascade protection, except I had added some useful things to know.)

So what destroyed the Light Country rocker switch type RA1 (formerly R19A) of 6A 250v UR rating?  A current of somewhere between 100 and 1000 amps passed through it.  If the house 120v panel breaker did not open, then the switch or some part of the circuit board on which it was mounted was blown to pieces, or the point of short was burned clear.  This switch is on-off, and one of a family of 2A--6A--15A switches.  Being Chinese-made you don't get much more than it will switch 6A, meaning open 6 amps.  How much it will carry while closed is not stated, but it has silver contacts so likely will carry 20A without a problem (8w heating at contacts).  I'd even hazard 50A for a short period.  But not 1000 amps.  How far away (on a scale of 10 to 100 feet (which roughly corresponds inversely to the 100 to 1000 amps) was the service panel from the wall outlet?

But in all likelihood this switch (SW2) was not the problem, but the victim.  Of what?

Well, the secondary coil carried 45 amps for a very short while, which was approached slowly (slowly in electrical terms).  The rate of heat generation in the low voltage load side coil would be about 800w.  The line-side coil would have carried about 6 amps (isn't that a coincidence?) with a heat rate of about 120w.  As a general rule, in this situation you want the insulation in the primary coil (line-side 120v) to fail first.  That is so you get a breaker opening on the wall outlet before you get a transformer fire.

The "bricks" are low reactance transformers.  This is accomplished by winding one coil entirely over the other.  Which?  Well, you wind the 120v coil under the 18v coil.  That way its heat is trapped and its insulation fails first.  BAM!  120v short and the Light Country switch SW-2 is blown to pieces, through no fault of its own.

Meanwhile, the progressive destruction of the circuit board due the 45A short on the output is halted.

It would be interesting to break open R-1, the Millionspot 15A relay, and see if this exercise welded its contacts together...

There is at least one case of a brick with welded R-1 contacts in the historical record of 86 failures of the unfused first TUI's that I investigated about 16 years ago.   I immediately opened a 135w brick lying to hand and understood at a glance (10-amp sugar-cube sized R-1 relay) what trouble cutting the special plug was causing.  So I chased down a copy of UL 697 ($600+/40-odd pages those days to buy one) and confirmed this was a UL-approved cascade protection arrangement.

Cascade protection actually works, if done correctly.  If done correctly.  Your modern house service panel actually has the smaller breakers in cascade with the master breaker, in most cases.

About every two years I take another stab at trying to explain this situation here on the OGR board, totally without success.  But given the rate at which equipment is generously being destroyed in this discussion, and number of rather skilled people looking at all the pictures of the wreckage, I have renewed hope.

--Frank

Engineer-JoeEngineer-JoeOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
cjack posted:
stan2004 posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:
cjack posted:
stan2004 posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:
... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.

Note that the wiring diagram does not match!  

s-l1600

This is probably how I wired the new switch...

 

So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?

Switch should be fine; it's just the eBay seller's own diagram does not match his photo.  I'd do what cjack suggests.  I think cjack's diagram needs to be corrected to show the 1N4003 diode facing the other way.  Also, note that the 10k resistor should be of the 1 Watt rating.  Most guys have a stash of only 1/2 Watt resistors so if that's what you have then, say, two 1/2 Watt resistors of 5.1k or 4.7k in series would work.  It can be a chore to buy just one 1 Watt resistor mail-order or wherever.

Replacement%20Switch

 

Oh yes! Thanks for catching that. 

Thanks

Wait, is it a 4003 or a 4005?

Last edited by Engineer-Joe
D 1drummerOGR Forum Member

I learned my soldering iron tip was damaged last night...

So I couldn't disconnect the leads...

All the stores that might have had a tip, or iron..closed at 8 pm..

Odd..stores closing at 8pm in December....

Wonder what marketing genius made that decision....

 

Now at hospital with wife...she has AFIB..heart was 148 for over 24 hours...it would not self correct with meds..even in ER..so they shocked her..120 joules...

Now her beat is regular again...

 

Seems electricity is the dominant factor of my existence

Engineer-JoeEngineer-JoeOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
George S posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

The valuable part for most is the brick.  It can probably be fixed, but you'd have to open it up and dig into it.  Yes, the screws are under the rubber feet.

I opened one of mine. The screws are slotted, but have a safety 'notch' to prevent amateurs from opening them with ordinary flat head screw drivers. I used my Dremel on an old screw driver to create the notch in the blade. Then it was easy to remove the screws. I'm sure GRJ has the professional driver set. 

George

there it is....

S stan2004OGR Forum Member
F Maguire posted:
 
...This is accomplished by winding one coil entirely over the other.  Which?  Well, you wind the 120v coil under the 18v coil.  That way its heat is trapped and its insulation fails first... 

So does the transformer in this brick have an internal-irreplaceable fusible link?  And if so why wouldn't this fuse fail first (before the primary insulation fails from its trapped heat as you describe)?  In either case the transformer would be toast, but it seems an insulation failure which suggests potential shorting has more dire consequences than an opening of a fuse.

Engineer-JoeEngineer-JoeOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

sorry to interrupt ..... again,

I got it apart and found a 1n4003 diode in my parts stash. I also found 1n4001 which state 50v so I could see where the higher number works.

I'm guessing that my light failed and the resistor is still good. Can't I re-use the stock resistor that's already in there? Is that what fails?

I would just re-solder the new switch in place using the original wires as a guide?

DSC_1833

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • DSC_1833
D 1drummerOGR Forum Member

I just got a response from Lionel

They will respond with a decision in 3 days..

How do you think my opening the brick affect their decision when I inform them ????

I'm going to attempt to resolder the relay lead..

Bypass the on/off switch...

See if any smoke escapes...

Or perhaps isolate transformer leads and test OHMS FIRST...

 

 

S stan2004OGR Forum Member
Engineer-Joe posted:
...

I'm guessing that my light failed and the resistor is still good. Can't I re-use the stock resistor that's already in there? Is that what fails?

Switch
Above from PLCProf photo.  Is this what you have and can you measure the Ohms with a meter and/or tell us the markings on the existing part.  I doubt the resistor failed.  But there seems to be some question as to what kind of lamp is in the original switch...the original schematic suggesting a bulb for example...
 

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Switch
S stan2004OGR Forum Member
1drummer posted:
...

But, I am getting continuity through the switch.

 

So if you're getting continuity through the switch, did you measure the Ohms between the AC power plug?  This should measure the primary side of the transformer (1 Ohm or whatever).

Also, can you tell the lettering/markings on the relay?  The discussion has been about the Millionspot H200 relay.  Zettler may be one and the same but would be good to document for the record.

Next

Add Reply

Views: 3,355
Post

OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×

Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership

OGR Forum Supporting Membership

Help support this forum with an OGR Forum Supporting Membership.
You will be able to watch the videos in the INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEO FORUM!
A one-year OGR Forum Supporting Membership is only $12 per year, so sign up now!


    OR     


Access the ALL the OGR VIDEO FORUMS AND  over 300 back issues of OGR
with a DIGITAL SUBSCRIPTION!



$12.00 per 12 Months (plus tax if applicable)
×