So..I never made time to continue testing..
But tonight after Work Christmas party I will open up the seal on the switch and see if that was the source of the Angry pop.
GunrunnerJohn:
I was saying that Band Good has those type Switches too.
Someone else above posted info about where to found parts not a word from you.
If you have a problem with me.
If, so. Please give me a call so we can air things out here.
I remain. John 848-992-2157
NYC,SUBWAY TRANSIT SIGNAL posted:GunrunnerJohn:
I was saying that Band Good has those type Switches too.
Someone else above posted info about where to found parts not a word from you.
If you have a problem with me.
If, so. Please give me a call so we can air things out here.
I remain. John 848-992-2157
I don't think any of us knew it was a switch when you posted. The thread was at a point where no parts could fix the unit, so your post at the time seemed more like an advertisement. I don't think GRJ meant anything more than confusion at the time.
George , Thanks !
But, I don't have anything to do with that Company other then trying save the group a little money on electronics parts.
To support the Hobby. Its been other type comments prior.
Not taking anything away here but sometime GunrunnerJohn derail himself.
I read all of the help he give to the forum.
It's like who died and left him the Boss.
Ok , enough said. Thanks, John
NYC,SUBWAY TRANSIT SIGNAL posted:It's like who died and left him the Boss.
I didn't catch his name before he expired. 
Perhaps if we had any idea what Band Good was the post would have made more sense. Google sure doesn't know, and I've never heard of it.
Gunrunnerjohn,
You mean, I get one up on you, I don't believe it.
Please check out the Web-site they a have a lot of good stiff cheap, and offer free shipping.
Have a nice weekend.
Good luck, John
You missed my point, I can't find any website that's named Band Good, and Google doesn't turn anything up like that either. Hard to check it out when I have no idea where it is, or what it is.
This is as close as Google got for me...
cjack posted:This is as close as Google got for me...
Doesn't seem to really be a parts house...more like a gadget store. Interesting though...
cjack posted:This is as close as Google got for me...
Yeah, me too.
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Found these...right size, but no LED...
NYC,SUBWAY TRANSIT SIGNAL posted:Gunrunnerjohn,
You mean, I get one up on you, I don't believe it.
Please check out the Web-site they a have a lot of good stiff cheap, and offer free shipping.
Have a nice weekend.
Good luck, John
Before you go off on Gunrunner... you may want to check yourself. Your original post said to check out "BAND GOOD"
I couldn't find it either. Why? Because Band Good doesn't exist.
As you have posted in your latest reply, it's Bang Good.
If you posted that properly the first time, no one would have questioned its veracity.
Still not relevant.
How does this relate to the thread?
I don't know how it related to the thread, but I already knew about www.banggood.com, but it's not one of the first sites I think of when I need a specific part. 
However, the name given didn't make sense, at least now I understand why.
Explanation of Brick handling a short--it's cascade protection (involving a 2d breaker downstream)
Hi, guys--
First, this was a really good and useful discussion. PLCProf really came close toward the end (cutting the plug off, not using as intended). Unfortunately the real cause may turn out to be the on-off switch in the primary (OP's brick), which will cloud the real issue, which is a more common trouble, I think. Notice that one of the posters (different from OP) actually damaged his own 180w PH transformer by putting a solid short on it, on the load side (ie, layout side).
Well, right to it. With the special plug on the 18v output, you can only plug into certain devices. Perhaps the third (so-called "unused") pin in this plug ti arranged so that you cannot physically plug a 180w brick into a voltage regulating device that can handle only 7 amps (ie, that requires the 135w brick, etc).
These are things like the PowerMaster (PM) controllers, and the later ZW transformers electronically-varied output voltage. Some of the earlier such devices may have had paired triacs, or later, MOSFET transistors. What I noticed in one was that the triac or MOSFET (forgot which there, but think it was a MOSFET) was rated for 35 amps although used in a 7-amp circuit. It would be 50% duty cycle with the pair, so it could actually handle 70 amps for one cycle, if the heat-sinking was up to that. But it's more like how many cycles at 70 amp. There was a large aluminum fin attached; I guessed at its effectiveness. With a 77-amp max short current from a 135w brick, this looked adequate. Later, I found the same 35w chips used in a 10-amp utilization device, similar heat-sinking.
Typically the sensing was only across one chip. So the interrupt time could be up to nearly two cycles. At the same, I realized I had initially overlooked the 50% duty cycle also. BTW, "Typically" is an engineering term that means "the one I looked at."
The importance of this is that these devices (chips) burn up so fast that their own ability to interrupt current must be used to protect themselves. So we know that a likely speed of operation is 2-cycles at max short circuit output.
So, what is needed is to analyze Cam's circuit drawing, with a view of seeing how long the time delay to open the circuit is (the requirement is that any current over the amount necessary to output over 180w be interrupted in not over 60 seconds). I realized after a cursory look at the circuit that I actually once knew how to do this. What a shock. Someone here make this calculation, and save me the effort. The time delay will then only require that the relay carry the max short for two cycles, which should be easier than closing into such a short, and easier still than opening one. I suggest using 100 amps as the max short. Then the current transformer in the diagram produces 1/100 ampere, making calculation in one's head easier. The open triangles indicate connection to the 8-volt bus, including its supply.
UL 697, Toy Transformers, was changed immediately prior to the first brick (135w) to "not require a transformer to interrupt all the current it may produce..." contrary to the previous requirement, So, the Lionel brick is actually compliant, and not underprotected. It is actually a means of reducing the total cost to users. I've always recommended that MTH DCS users make their connections thru the line-side shed lock-on (the 10-amp version has binding posts inside on the output). Although this is a very large supervised relay, its moving contact is still not so large that it's operation, unless intentionally delayed, would be subcycle. BTW, cutting the plug off the brick voids its UL label.
--Frank
"the requirement is that any current over the amount necessary to output over 180w be interrupted in not over 60 seconds"
60 ms?
I would like to thank PLCProf for risking his 180W brick for the common good.
So..what have we learned on this thread of mine
Spell check is important
Everything can be improved
And I was going to wait for a reply from Lionel before I take "noticeable warranty voiding" actions...
But my faith in their customer satisfaction agenda on this issue is not very high..And would probably only result in a remanufactured swap out
So, I'm going to jump in
PLCProf posted:OK lots to talk about.
As posted above, I shorted the output of a PH-180, energized it, and got the "angry pop." However, things did not turn out as they were assumed.
1. ...In attached photo "Switch" the upper left contact is extremely loose and discolored....
2. ...Careful measurements showed no continuity from the relay pin to the pad. (photo "Board before")...
So by loose upper left switch terminal, was it this one? This diagram from Light Country as shown in cjack's photo so may not apply...but if so this appears to be one of the lamp terminals as opposed to a "load-carrying" terminals. Since you are replacing the switch did you open it to see if the "pop" sound might was the low-current lamp terminal being, say, whacked loose? Since you were getting no continuity thru the "load" terminals, it seems there would be something interesting to see!
So it appears it was the relay's "common" terminal pin that showed no continuity to its pad. So if I understand the difference, the OP measured just under 6V AC right at Red and Blue...but you measured 6V AC at the output (after the relay). I'm guessing (?) your 6V AC was capacitive coupling across the relay from 18V AC into your high-impedance DVM...whereas the OP's 6V AC measured at the transformer is a different coupling path...perhaps through the transformer itself? Just curious your opinion.
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1drummer posted:...So, I'm going to jump in
Does the lamp in your switch go on?
In your conversation with the Lionel tech, was there any suggestion, hint, whatever that the transformer itself has an internal/irreplaceable fusible-link?
If I could ask inside this post?
I have one brick that the LED light does not work. Quickly glancing at this post I don't see where I can buy this switch with the LED, if mine is bad.
Does Lionel sell it directly?
Is there someone else who I can buy one from?
and, can I install it or does it require special tools?
Sorry to interrupt.
PLCProf postedOn my unit, the - terminal on the switch was connected directly to power line neutral, and the + terminal was connected to the transformer primary through a 1M resistor (no diode.)
1 Meg?
Engineer-Joe posted:If I could ask inside this post?
I have one brick that the LED light does not work. Quickly glancing at this post I don't see where I can buy this switch with the LED, if mine is bad.
Does Lionel sell it directly?
Is there someone else who I can buy one from?
and, can I install it or does it require special tools?
Sorry to interrupt.
Lifetime supply...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-X-S...5:g:5pAAAOSwyDxXhYLR
If you just want one, I'll send you one. Email me. You will have to deal with the resistor connected to the switch in your unit, and I added a diode to protect the LED from future burnouts...I guess.
Given the schematic I posted, there seems to be more than one version of this power brick. They have an incandescent bulb in the switch, clearly the LED isn't powered from the 110V side, that would be pretty silly.
PLCProf posted:cjack posted:PLCProf postedOn my unit, the - terminal on the switch was connected directly to power line neutral, and the + terminal was connected to the transformer primary through a 1M resistor (no diode.)
1 Meg?
Yeah, that doesn't sound right, does it? Thought that's what it said but I didn't measure it, just moved it to the new switch.
Only four screws to take the cover off; I'll check it later. Gotta be accurate!
10K would be ok.
cjack posted:Engineer-Joe posted:If I could ask inside this post?
I have one brick that the LED light does not work. Quickly glancing at this post I don't see where I can buy this switch with the LED, if mine is bad.
Does Lionel sell it directly?
Is there someone else who I can buy one from?
and, can I install it or does it require special tools?
Sorry to interrupt.
Lifetime supply...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-X-S...5:g:5pAAAOSwyDxXhYLR
If you just want one, I'll send you one. Email me. You will have to deal with the resistor connected to the switch in your unit, and I added a diode to protect the LED from future burnouts...I guess.
Thank you!
I will add the diode. When I looked at your link, another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-X-SP...%26sd%3D272305821045
gunrunnerjohn posted:Given the schematic I posted, there seems to be more than one version of this power brick. They have an incandescent bulb in the switch, clearly the LED isn't powered from the 110V side, that would be pretty silly.
Mine was. It is an LED inside the AC line switch. There was a 15K resistor in series with it and no diode. So I put one in when I replaced the switch. I think that's why the LED burns out...go figure...
Engineer-Joe posted:... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.
Note that the wiring diagram does not match!
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cjack posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:Given the schematic I posted, there seems to be more than one version of this power brick. They have an incandescent bulb in the switch, clearly the LED isn't powered from the 110V side, that would be pretty silly.
Mine was. It is an LED inside the AC line switch. There was a 15K resistor in series with it and no diode. So I put one in when I replaced the switch. I think that's why the LED burns out...go figure...
What I'm wondering is if you limit the current to something small when the reverse cycle causes the LED to conduct, how many years can it survive? We used to use the breakdown on transistors to achieve very fast high voltage switching, but limited the current to something that didn't destroy the junction.
The LED has a reverse voltage spec of around 5 volts, no wonder they die! Of course, Lionel puts lots of LED's in other things with no diode protection, they die there as well.
stan2004 posted:Engineer-Joe posted:... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.
Note that the wiring diagram does not match!
This is probably how I wired the new switch...CORRECTION, TURN THE 1N4003 AROUND! BOTH THE LED AND THE DIODE SHOULD POINT THE SAME WAY.
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cjack posted:stan2004 posted:Engineer-Joe posted:... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.
Note that the wiring diagram does not match!
This is probably how I wired the new switch...
So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?
I m watching football so I can't think.��
BTW, I have used these bricks to power my layout for a few years now. It is 2 rail and I have had many shorts. The breaker always trips. I have had several times where I applied power, had a dead short on the layout, and the breaker tripped with no damage.
With this record for me, I'm not sure how that many others are seeing this failure? Maybe different production runs are better? I apologize as I'm not good at electronics. I just try and follow along.
My bricks have always protected themselves without failing. Just lucky?
Hey Joe, you mind if I send you and Email?
jwpcfv (at) msn.com
put in the @ symbol.
Sent
Engineer-Joe posted:cjack posted:stan2004 posted:Engineer-Joe posted:... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.
Note that the wiring diagram does not match!
This is probably how I wired the new switch...
So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?
I m watching football so I can't think.��
You're fine. Just wire it as above after the football is a faint memory. I MADE AN ERROR, TURN THE 1N4003 AROUND! SEE THE LATER POSTS. BOTH THE LED AND THE DIODE SHOULD POINT THE SAME WAY.
Engineer-Joe posted:cjack posted:stan2004 posted:Engineer-Joe posted:... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.Note that the wiring diagram does not match!
This is probably how I wired the new switch...
So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?
Switch should be fine; it's just the eBay seller's own diagram does not match his photo. I'd do what cjack suggests. I think cjack's diagram needs to be corrected to show the 1N4003 diode facing the other way. Also, note that the 10k resistor should be of the 1 Watt rating. Most guys have a stash of only 1/2 Watt resistors so if that's what you have then, say, two 1/2 Watt resistors of 5.1k or 4.7k in series would work. It can be a chore to buy just one 1 Watt resistor mail-order or wherever.
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Images (1)
stan2004 posted:Engineer-Joe posted:cjack posted:stan2004 posted:Engineer-Joe posted:... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.Note that the wiring diagram does not match!
This is probably how I wired the new switch...
So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?
Switch should be fine; it's just the eBay seller's own diagram does not match his photo. I'd do what cjack suggests. I think cjack's diagram needs to be corrected to show the 1N4003 diode facing the other way. Also, note that the 10k resistor should be of the 1 Watt rating. Most guys have a stash of only 1/2 Watt resistors so if that's what you have then, say, two 1/2 Watt resistors of 5.1k or 4.7k in series would work. It can be a chore to buy just one 1 Watt resistor mail-order or wherever.
Oh yes! Thanks for catching that.
