Update!! DCS Signal Issues

Charly,

1. When adding a loco, make sure no other locos are on powered tracks.  Here's an idea.  Connect a transformer outlet to a FIXED circuit.  Set that handle to 18 volts and turn all other off.  Connect that circuit to a length of track not a part of your layout.  Add the loco.  If you have multiple remotes, designate one as the master, and do all adding and deleting of locos on that.  Then use the Loader program to clone the others.  Then all remotes have all locos in same addresses.

2. The smoke on/off affecting lights in a bug inversion 4.2 and 4.3.  MTH has been made aware of it and, last I heard, it is the last bug they're trying to fix before the next release.  When I turn smoke off, headlight, boiler light, interior light, and marker lights go off.  I takes a considerable period of time, and much effort, to get all those lights back on with smoke staying off.  My grandchildren have, I think/hope, finally realized that when Grandpa says don't turn the smoke on, he really, really means it.

3. If the above are your 2 problems, they're not layout oriented.

signal problems

I have the same problems with DCS.  Frequently, the engines can not be recognized on the track.  In certain areas of my track, I can not start MTH protosound 2 engines.  It can be very frustrating. I don't have these problems with my Legacy trains.

I wish that this situation could be resolved.

Cheryl,

What type of locomotives? Have had limited issues with 6 axle diesel units while 4 axle ones have been a nightmare as you describe. The remote being locked up with "Out of RF range" or "Engine not found" adds to the frustration guests have operating these besides the loss of control of a moving engine.  Will try steam this weekend.

By whom? Are you waiting for someone to fix it?

What is the signal level at the track your engines are seeing with DCS?

Why don't you create your own post and ask for help?

Cheryl, you do know that you can combine blocks on the same TIU channel right? Unless you are experiencing lower signal strength on that channel. Then it's time for another channel.

How does the system re-add an engine unless you select that?

Are you saying that they won't come out of the inactive list?

When you press a button on the remote, are you getting out of range a lot? Try turning the TIU so that it's top is facing you.

 To add to your frustration, many releases of DCS is flawed in some way. Knowing these flaws can keep you from guessing.

 I would post lists of these flaws but it turns into bashing. Barry lists the major ones.

 I wonder if the hollow fast track or switches causes extra issues? I use solid Atlas 2 rail and Aristo G scale track. Once the wiring is fine tuned, it stays good.

The new version L tiu has made it very easy to get great signal.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...82#35358642192692582

Cheryl,

A couple of observations:

• The problem with smoke on/off affecting lights is a known 4.30 issue and will be corrected in DCS 4.31
• The other issues are almost certainly due to low DCS signal strength, for which there are many possible reasons. The low DCS signal strength is also most likely exacerbating the issue with smoke and lights.

You need to pursue the low DCS signal strength using a methodical process:

• First, eliminate the TIU as the issue by connecting a test track and measuring signal strength with a stationary engine. If signal strength is less than a 10, the TIU channel has issues
• Next, do the same on layout tracks, If signal strength is less than 10 on the layout, place an 18 volt bulb across the output of the TIU channel. If signal strength still remains low, ensure that tracks are, indeed, blocked with center rails isolated between blocks and only one TIU/power connection per block
• If problems persist, substitute wires directly from a TIU channel output to an affected block, disconnecting any other wires and terminal blocks. Recheck signal strength.

For assistance, refer to The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition, Part IX - Troubleshooting Problems, 3. Verifying Operation of DCS Components, Diagnosing TIU Problems on pages 149-150 and Part IX - Troubleshooting Problems, 4. General Problems, Low Signal Strength on pages 151-153.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Charley, I would only add that with a the Rev L TIU I feel it is almost impossible to have signal strength issues.  We are wiring a large   modular layout and on one channel we are running 284 ft. of track with some ladder track involved and have "10"s everywhere . We have run 3 passenger consists through this section using LED lighting in the cars and have no issues with power or signal

 Hi Charley. Where to start?  As Barry pointed out you have to determine if the tiu are working  putting out a perfect  dcs signal.

I think I would turn everything OFF except one channel and disconnect all the center rail feeders except 1 at that  terminal block  with light bulb.. Leave the blacks connected  Start here  with a signal test.

 Add another feeder and see what happens , another signal check. and so on.  While the other zones are dead push a lighted car through them to make sure there are no back feeds lighting up the car.

  Another tip... A short piece of wire with alligator clips comes in handy jumpering insulated center rail joints when testing. Example..  Say you had 3 ten foot short blocks and got a dcs signal of 5, 6, 7s, disconnecting 2 of the 3 from the terminal block and jumpering the insulated joints with the allightor clips may yield a perfect dcs signal of 10. Who knows for sure but I've seen this happen more than once.

You may get lucky and not have to do much . 

Adding engines... pick a spot with a perfect signal and no other engine receiving power anywhere.

with a the Rev L TIU I feel it is almost impossible to have signal strength issues

I couldn't disagree more!

I've seen and solved dozens of instances of signal strength issues where perfectly operating Rev. L TIUs were involved. The Rev. L is no solution for wiring problems and human error.

I agree wholeheartedly with Barry here   The TIU Rev L is the least reliable of them all

 OK! I said it made it easy for me to get better signal!

I can't see your track diagram for personal reasons. I would just say what worked for me.

Isolate your mainline blocks so that they maintain the highest signal possible.

  If you have trains parked, it's good to have them on their own channel and/or be able to switch the power off. No sense having them use up available power and signal just sitting there.

 My engine yard was soaking up signal as my roster grew, so I added it's own TIU channel that's switched. I believe there's a limit to the number of engines per TIU channel.

 Power switches and accessories with some other source.

Try running the layout just with a conventional transformer (no TIU) and a good load. See where there's any power drop outs.

I forget the main list but it's in Barry's book. The equal wire length thing didn't affect any of my layouts.

I'm interested if there's any signal loss on any side of the fast track switches??? You may need to add jumper wires. I can't imagine there's a problem with so many users?

 What type and gauge wire are you using?

 What's your power?

 Which TIU versions? (L or older?)

Do you have lights or filters installed if older TIU?

What is the signal strength on each loop?

Cheryl,

   I know you run FasTrack same as I do, one of the big things I noticed while building my DCS layout was that if I violated the 12 track join discipline my DCS signal would immediately drop.  Once I started following Marty's advise on the number of track joins I actually used, I very seldom needed a magic light placed along the tracks.  I use longer sections of track where I can to help eliminate as many track joins as possible. Do not worry about your switches, except that each switch is like any other track and counts as a join. If your TIU is working correctly and you use the 12 track join discipline, to set up your blocks, along with the correct size, stranded 14 gauge wire, your signal should remain up around 10 thru out your layout, and you should have no further problems, unless you have an engine problem of it's own.  A faulty engine can be a real pain, no doubt about it.

PCRR/Dave

The TIU's when on their own work as expected, a single engine will add on a test track with no issues and report 10's.  All functions will work as expected.  This is the case with both TIU's.

Lima, if 4-axle diesels give a problem an 6 axle doesn't, I would recommend checking ground connections in loco.  You may have one wheel picking up power from each outside rail.  Poor electrical connections will affect DCS signal.

???, what I'm referring to is when I try to re-add an engine I have had to delete it will pickup an existing engine instead.

You're not using a programming  track?  Did you get a chance to track signal your blocks one at a time?. Combining a few shorter ones might help.

I said, don't try to add an engine if there are any on powered tracks.  If you don't believe me........

Hello again !

Here is where I am at now...

1)  Cleaned main line loop, isolated it from all other track, and with a known well behaved engine, did a signal test.  Got lots of "out of RF range" messages interspersed with 10's.

2)  Isolated a block of this loop and put the same engine on it and did a signal test with the engine stationary.  Still getting sporadic "out of RF range" messages, but also getting some signal responses at all 10's.

3)  Took the engine to the test setup, (30" length of FasTrack, different TIU, Remote and ACC transformer) and performed the stationary signal test.  Constant pinging and all 10's.

4) Replaced the test TIU with TIU from the layout, and got the same results.  Conclusion was that TIU from the layout seemingly is working properly.

5)  Inserted test TIU in place of layout TIU and ran the engine and did a signal test, got satisfactory responses, mostly 7 of above signal and no "out of RF range" messages.  Conclusion, track and wiring do not seem to be the problem.

6)  Replaced layout TIU into layout and got similar results, with one or two "out of RF range" messages, while still maintaining reasonable engine control.  Did this both on the fixed 1 output, the variable 1 output and variable 1 as fixed.  Same results.  Also tried using a second working remote and got slightly better performance regards to "out of RF range" messages.

Final Conclusions...  the transceiver board in my handheld may be somewhat responsible, but I've already done the foam in the back thing to it.  The signal being generated by the TIU may be weak.  At this point I am planning on a slight rewire to eliminate a second TIU and thus no need for "super" usage.  Running all outputs as fixed and using the handles for conventional control.

I originally wanted to be able to use the remote to control the conventional trains and have the transformers under the layout and set accordingly.  As I am slowly converting most of the conventional engines to command this point will become moot.  What few will remain are dedicated sets (3 or 4 maybe) and not a problem to run with the handles as they'll not be run frequently.  

Thanks guys for all your comments/interest, and a special shout out to Barry for pointing me down the right path.

I maybe wrong about this.... but I think if you tether the remote, it would eliminate any issue of the communication with the TIU. If you still got the "out of range", then it would be an un-expected response (or no response) from the engine to the remote, and point to other issues.

 Barry and other pros may say what other message you'd see. I believe I've gotten the "out of range" for other issues besides between the remote and the TIU. My memory stinks!

Just trying to help. I see your posts and wish I lived nearby to help.

Brand new 2 weeks old. We tried it over the weekend, gets 8's to 10 when run by itself then when you add another MTH engine to the track, even if dark and silent, the 4-axle unit gets 1's or out of range. Swapped TIU outputs yet issue remains, try to check wheels again. Switches are set to DCS and 3 Rail. May have to go back to MTH.

gets 8's to 10 when run by itself then when you add another MTH engine to the track, even if dark and silent, the 4-axle unit gets 1's or out of range.

That's weird.  What kind of signal strength do you get from another DCS loco on the same track at the same time?

Does this loco have wipers touching the axles without the traction tires?

You ought to post loco model numbers.

It is Weird.... Lube the center rail roller pins and run the crap out of it and see if things improve. Maybe it just some running time.

I strongly doubt that running time improves DCS signal.  I'd compare it to other locos on the same track at the same time, due a check of the internal wiring, and then send it to MTH (after first calling to get a return authorization) if I found nothing.

Exactly what engine and anything else are you putting on the track along with the problem engine?

What size wire are you using from the transformer, to tiu and from tiu  to track?

There you go again, Barry.  Wanting the facts before you make a diagnosis.

Gregg, the older I get, the more convinced I am that using 16-gauge or smaller wire is bad for the DCS signal.  As Frank Maguire has noted in another thread. the data packets are flows of electrons, and when too many electrons try to share space in a wire, strength suffers.  I am sure this statement will stimulate a profusion of declarations by persons who say they use 24-gauge wire and never have a problem, but that's fine.  It's an owner's layout, and he/she can run it as he/she wishes.

RJR,

   Man I definitely agree with you about the stranded wire size, in fact I run the stranded 14 Gauge wire thru out the layout, until it hits the FasTrack track join wire, track side.  Using the 12 track join discipline when building blocks, with the correct size wire makes a multi level layout run perfectly, both DCS & Legacy.  I have found if you vary these disciplines, most times the signal starts to diminish and you have problems.

PCRR/Dave

I recently found I had sever signal issues on one end of my layout, my resolution will mostly likely be to move one of my TIUs down to that end of the layout

My layout is wired with 16 gauge stranded wire. All 10's, no issues.

there maybe some sweet spot for DCS? length vs. gauge????

I had a section of the layout acting up. As I was re-wiring I noticed it had 12 gauge wire from my old G scale loop that I removed. It was the same grade of low voltage wire as my 14 gauge.

I couldn't prove that was any reason. It acted better as the wiring was redone and preferred to have the end of block wiring connection, with filters at the far end. (They are now removed with the version L TIU.)

 Maybe more the quality of the wire vs gauge??? Once it worked, I stopped testing.

Hi Charly "Do any of you have any advice/hints as to how I should approach this.  For instance, eliminate blocks or at least most of them.  Go to just one TIU, etc..  Any thoughts, questions, help at this time would probably help save my sanity."

You are one phone call away from helping your sanity".

Just one phone call:  MTH Technical Support - They will solve all your issues.

410-381-2580 - M - F Noon to 5PM EDT.

They will stay with you until, this issue is resolved.

Good Luck

Gary

PS - All fortune 500 companies have a help desk, MTH is not part of the 500, but they are the best in our hobby.

I have two loops with about 4'-5' of #14's from TIU to two MTH terminal blocks, then all long runs from the terminal blocks to the track feeds are #16. Getting all 10's everywhere with no problems at all. Followed 'DCS Companion' wiring guide lines. This is the best DCS setup I have ever had, haven't had one problem in the entire 8+ months it's been active.

Charly:

I have had many signal strength issues arise on my layout, which is a fastrack layout. The following is a list of things that have caused problems, that have since been resolved:

1) if you have any uncoupler track sections, check to be sure they are working OK. I had one uncoupler overheat, and once that happens, a short or other similar problems can arise, and that section of track is going to have signal strength and other issues. This caused multiple days of troubleshooting before I found the failed uncoupler and fixed the problem by replacing the uncoulpler track.

2) On my layout I have the 4 DCS channels going to 4 different terminal blocks. each terminal block has up to 8 pairs of wires (center and common) going to each of the 8 track sections. This wiring configuration allows me to easily disconnect and isolate the different block sections by disconnecting track wires at the terminal blocks, which is quite easy to do.  I found that I can only have about 8 track connections (with the center rail isolated between each section) per DCS channel. If I add one or two more connections, the signal strength dies. When I added a 9th and 10th track connection, the signal strength deteriorated for all of the track sections on that channel.

3) I have also had the track signal die due to a poor fastrack pin connection. when I test for signal strength in a block, I note where the strength changes, and then bend the track pins with a pair of pliers, which increases the friction and tightness in the track joint. This solved many signal strength issues on my layout.

4) I also had the signal strength deteriorate over a switch or pair of switches. I eventually powered my switches from an aux transformer, to help eliminate this potential interference to my signal strength.  The same cold happen if you have uncoupling tracks. I also changed all my uncoupler tracks to aux power as well. I used the same aux transformer for both the switches and uncoupling tracks, as both are only used for a short period of time, and rarely at the same time.

I hope some of these ideas from troubleshooting my signal strength problems may be of help to you.

5) as already mentioned, cleaning the rail heads can improve signal strength readings.

Joe K

Barry,

   14 or 16 stranded, depending on the layout, I do not see much difference, the original DCS layout you advised me on, I used the 16 stranded and it worked pretty well, with the original TIU,  I used magic lights a lot more however, with the Rev L, only a few magic lights were required in isolated spots.  I still like the 14 stranded best however.

PCRR/Dave

Cheryl,

I would next try using a tether as Joe has suggested.  That eliminates any remote to TIU communication issues during a test.

I believe that the OUT OF RF RANGE message means that the remote is having issues talking to the TIU.

Also I don't think I read if you are using Super TIU mode or Normal TIU mode for your two TIUs?  What numbers are your TIUs set to?

You might want to evaluate if you can use just one TIU for your entire layout.

Do you have any toggle or power switches installed after the TIU and before the tracks?

GP38-2 #20-20370. Runs fine by itself pulling freight cars. Just parking a SD9043MAC #20-20298 and/or a ES44AC #20-20286 on the next block of track the GP38 becomes unresponsive. Yet the other engines run fine together.

With 4 engines on the layout, it is the only one that starts up in conventional, all the others remain silent until you start them up. And if there are other engines on the layout, you cannot get it to "start up" in DCS mode. Any internal connections we should check? If not it seems it has to go back to MTH. The thought did occur that running may wear some type of signal blocking finish off the wheels but the others worked fine out of the box so we have run it some alone with no change.

Barry, got the book. Need to clone some remotes with 4.20. Will the current loader work? Do not want to change them to 4.3 as they will be traveling to other layouts with engines.

Thanks guys.